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The Passage of Time

tvellalott
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6/3/2011 10:51:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"At each moment, we are at the edge of a paradox known as "The Arrow", first described by the philosopher Zeno of Elea twenty-five hundred years ago.

Starting logically with the premise that nothing can be in two places at once, he reasoned that an arrow is only at one location during any given instant of its flight.

But, if it's only in one place, it must momentarily be at rest. The arrow must be present somewhere, at some specific location, at every moment of its trajectory.

Logically, then, motion per se is not what is really occurring.

Rather, it is a series of separate events.

This may be a first indication that the forward motion of time of which the moment of the arrow is embodiment – is not a feature of the external world but a projection of something within us, as we tie together things we are observing.

By this reasoning, time is not an absolute reality but a feature of our minds."
-Robert Lanzo
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Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/3/2011 11:09:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/3/2011 10:51:52 AM, tvellalott wrote:

By this reasoning, time is not an absolute reality but a feature of our minds."

Time was thought of as a concept however this is as outdated as Aristotle's thinking that gravity was just the natural behavior of matter, i.e., a rock fell because it belonged on the ground, steam rose as it belong in the air. Time is just as much objective as spatial co-ordinates. For example time and energy are quantum paried variables and this pairing results in direct observables such as the Casimir effect. Then there is of course general relativity which explains gravity through curvature in the ct dimension.
tvellalott
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6/3/2011 11:12:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/3/2011 11:09:42 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/3/2011 10:51:52 AM, tvellalott wrote:

By this reasoning, time is not an absolute reality but a feature of our minds."

Time was thought of as a concept however this is as outdated as Aristotle's thinking that gravity was just the natural behavior of matter, i.e., a rock fell because it belonged on the ground, steam rose as it belong in the air. Time is just as much objective as spatial co-ordinates. For example time and energy are quantum paried variables and this pairing results in direct observables such as the Casimir effect. Then there is of course general relativity which explains gravity through curvature in the ct dimension.

Way to blow my buzz.
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Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/3/2011 11:18:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/3/2011 11:12:02 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Way to blow my buzz.

Don't worry I am sure Justin will be along shortly to post a three page copy and paste about how time is an objective truth which can only be actualized in the subjective nature of mind and thus the true nature of reality can only be obtained by inverting the mind/brain duality and combining the true nature of perception and internalization into universal actualization.
tvellalott
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6/3/2011 11:29:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/3/2011 11:18:45 AM, Kinesis wrote:
I'm glad we have a physicist to wallop the metaphysical speculations of the members here with real science.

I just stumbled upon it and thought it was interesting. I recently watched Stephen Hawking's Universe and the Time Travel episode was excellent.
Time is relative and all that.
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Cliff.Stamp
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6/3/2011 11:45:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/3/2011 11:29:05 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Time is relative and all that.

Note there is a big difference between the terms relative in physics and the term subjective which is used in phiolosphy. They are often equated in the mystical jamblings and people will cite Einstein or Feynman to try to claim that reality is subjective as "it is all relative". That is like claiming that a dog is actually a cat because wood is not plastic. All that relative means is that there are different ways to describe something depending on the frame of reference, it is really no different than noting that something is 1 inch or 2.5 centimeters. This does obviously not make the length subjective, once the definitions are accepted then the truth is objective. You can of course fight about the definitions just like I can argue that red is actually blue, but unless you are a bit of a mental there is little point in that and the frequencies of the light is the same in each case.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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6/3/2011 12:00:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/3/2011 11:18:45 AM, Kinesis wrote:
I'm glad we have a physicist to wallop the metaphysical speculations of the members here with real science.

he was hardly needed for that one.
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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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6/3/2011 12:25:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/3/2011 11:45:31 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/3/2011 11:29:05 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Time is relative and all that.

Note there is a big difference between the terms relative in physics and the term subjective which is used in phiolosphy. They are often equated in the mystical jamblings and people will cite Einstein or Feynman to try to claim that reality is subjective as "it is all relative". That is like claiming that a dog is actually a cat because wood is not plastic. All that relative means is that there are different ways to describe something depending on the frame of reference, it is really no different than noting that something is 1 inch or 2.5 centimeters. This does obviously not make the length subjective, once the definitions are accepted then the truth is objective. You can of course fight about the definitions just like I can argue that red is actually blue, but unless you are a bit of a mental there is little point in that and the frequencies of the light is the same in each case.

I'm too tired to look up the meaning of what you said above, but I will tomorrow. I did however, make the point of posting this in Philosophy instead of Science. I like the quote above, even if it's scientifically wrong, more for the insight into the mind of an ancient philosopher than anything.

Actually, I want to add something else. Hawking mentioned time being fractionally slower close to the pyramids. This quote reminded me of that.
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Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/4/2011 3:39:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/3/2011 11:18:47 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/3/2011 11:12:02 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Way to blow my buzz.

Don't worry I am sure Justin will be along shortly to post a three page copy and paste about how time is an objective truth which can only be actualized in the subjective nature of mind and thus the true nature of reality can only be obtained by inverting the mind/brain duality and combining the true nature of perception and internalization into universal actualization.

1.) I rarely copy and paste anything. So you fail here.

2.) You were close as to how I would describe the perception of time. Half-Victory.

The basics. Time is an effect that we perceive in our subjective minds due to the 3 aspects of the absolute. The 3 aspects of the absolute are as follows...

1.) Abstract Space

2.) Motion

3.) Duration

These are the three aspects of the absolute and the combination of these aspects is what we perceive as time.

I hope I made you proud Cliff. *laughs a little...and then smiles*
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/5/2011 9:43:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/4/2011 3:39:32 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

2.) You were close as to how I would describe the perception of time.

Indeed, now realize that I wrote that small paragraph completely at random simply by stringing a number of pseudo-science phrases together. Thus with no effort a random generator can achieve the same level of "wisdom" as you provide.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/5/2011 9:49:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 9:43:45 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/4/2011 3:39:32 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

2.) You were close as to how I would describe the perception of time.

Indeed, now realize that I wrote that small paragraph completely at random simply by stringing a number of pseudo-science phrases together. Thus with no effort a random generator can achieve the same level of "wisdom" as you provide.

Rock on
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/5/2011 11:12:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is not difficult, in one of his books Feynman talks about the same thing, it was one of the main reasons he felt the subject was intellectually dishonest as a whole. The real difference is that you can not do that in physics as if you do jamble on like that someone will just ask you to write down the equations and calculate something simple. You just can't fake it.
Justin_Chains
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6/7/2011 3:16:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 11:12:00 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
It is not difficult, in one of his books Feynman talks about the same thing, it was one of the main reasons he felt the subject was intellectually dishonest as a whole. The real difference is that you can not do that in physics as if you do jamble on like that someone will just ask you to write down the equations and calculate something simple. You just can't fake it.

You are truly ignorant. I can't write the mathematical equation for how my body moves,how my lungs breathe, how I eat, and how I drive my car.. but I understand it. Mathematical equations and quantum calculations are not needed to understand how the universe works.

You will learn one day. Science will bring humanity into the next stage of spiritual evolution. Keep paving the path Cliff. You will figure out the truth one day. Science will lead the way.

Time is an illusion made by conscious observation of changes in physical reality.
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/7/2011 3:21:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 3:16:40 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:12:00 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
It is not difficult, in one of his books Feynman talks about the same thing, it was one of the main reasons he felt the subject was intellectually dishonest as a whole. The real difference is that you can not do that in physics as if you do jamble on like that someone will just ask you to write down the equations and calculate something simple. You just can't fake it.

You are truly ignorant. I can't write the mathematical equation for how my body moves,how my lungs breathe, how I eat, and how I drive my car.. but I understand it. Mathematical equations and quantum calculations are not needed to understand how the universe works.

You will learn one day. Science will bring humanity into the next stage of spiritual evolution. Keep paving the path Cliff. You will figure out the truth one day. Science will lead the way.

Time is an illusion made by conscious observation of changes in physical reality.

The next stage in the spiritual evolution of humanity will probably be brought on by gangsta rap and drugs.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/7/2011 6:25:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 3:16:40 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

Mathematical equations and quantum calculations are not needed to understand how the universe works.

Want to debate that?

Time is an illusion made by conscious observation of changes in physical reality.

Or that?
Justin_Chains
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6/7/2011 7:04:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 6:25:55 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/7/2011 3:16:40 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

Mathematical equations and quantum calculations are not needed to understand how the universe works.

Want to debate that?

Time is an illusion made by conscious observation of changes in physical reality.

Or that?

I already told you that I don't have time to debate t this time period in my life. I will let you know when I can, so we can debate some of the many issues that we oppose each other on. Until then, please quit asking.
Cliff.Stamp
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6/9/2011 10:10:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 3:21:32 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

The next stage in the spiritual evolution of humanity will probably be brought on by gangsta rap and drugs.

Cosmic have you actually tried LSD or similar?
Cliff.Stamp
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6/9/2011 10:12:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 7:04:53 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

I already told you that I don't have time to debate t this time period in my life.

Justin this has no justification as you could easily make a debate which has a lower time stamp than any of the threads you are argument spamming.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/9/2011 11:16:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/3/2011 11:45:31 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/3/2011 11:29:05 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Time is relative and all that.

Note there is a big difference between the terms relative in physics and the term subjective which is used in phiolosphy. They are often equated in the mystical jamblings and people will cite Einstein or Feynman to try to claim that reality is subjective as "it is all relative". That is like claiming that a dog is actually a cat because wood is not plastic. All that relative means is that there are different ways to describe something depending on the frame of reference,
it is really no different than noting that something is 1 inch or 2.5 centimeters.

no, it is different.

Einstein's relativity makes everything dependent upon everything else... All is ultimately One whole. any given thing exists, as it does, Through the existence of everything else.

This does obviously not make the length subjective, once the definitions are accepted then the truth is objective.

It does however put a spin on All our claims of knowledge of "things"... for any given "thing" in the way We talk of them is a body at a Particular time. And the notion of "Distance" no longer claims to Objectivity... for they are different depending on where/when you are.... The notion of "distance" as a stand-alone measurement does violence to "Reality" :)

These "things" do Not accurately describe Reality. They don't exist, as such, in Reality. My body exists when you chop out a Particular time (as we perpsectival-consciousnesses are admittedly quite apt to do).. but it doesn't Throughout ALL time..

Particular Times don't exist, just as Particular Distances don't.
Remember, Einstein was at the end of the day a "Steady-State'er"
He, at least, clearly thought his T.o.Relativity had larger implications than just naming conventions.

You can of course fight about the definitions just like I can argue that red is actually blue, but unless you are a bit of a mental there is little point in that and the frequencies of the light is the same in each case.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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6/9/2011 11:20:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
okay, so now I read this:
By 1930, American astronomer Edwin Hubble had compiled conclusive proof that the universe was expanding. Einstein visited Hubble personally in California to recant his steady-state beliefs.

but I'm sure if you talked to him in private you could get him to wax mystical :)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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6/9/2011 11:29:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/9/2011 11:16:29 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
it is really no different than noting that something is 1 inch or 2.5 centimeters.

This does obviously not make the length subjective, once the definitions are accepted then the truth is objective.

with Relativity measurements of Time and Space are Perspective based.. it's Not a lack of coming to agreeable standards of measuring .. it's the fact that the distances are actually different depending upon your perspective.

This is most noticeable from Greatly different perspectives.... but it's also true (to a non-noticeable degree) with Me and you if you stand there and I hop in a moving car and we're discussing the length of a notebook.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/9/2011 12:13:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/9/2011 11:29:21 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:

with Relativity measurements of Time and Space are Perspective based.. it's Not a lack of coming to agreeable standards of measuring .. it's the fact that the distances are actually different depending upon your perspective.

In order to measure anything you have to define a co-ordinate system which includes both units of measurement an a reference for the origon. This did not start with Einstein, co-ordinate transforms and the effects on measurements were known long before Einstein

Special Relativity explores co-ordinate transforms where the co-ordinate systems have a very high speed (approaching c). The theory of general relativity extended this to a co-ordinate transform which has a particular acceleration (g). But the general idea of measurement reference has been around as long as there has been physics.

Note that for example Galileo calculated explicitly the effects of co-ordinate transforms where the frames of reference are not simply displacement shifted but actually have time dependence.
baggins
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6/9/2011 12:27:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 3:16:40 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
Mathematical equations and quantum calculations are not needed to understand how the universe works.

This is funny.

Mathematical equations and quantum calculations are not SUFFICIENT to understand how the universe works.

This I can debate and defend.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
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6/9/2011 1:50:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/9/2011 12:32:48 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/9/2011 12:27:26 PM, baggins wrote:

This I can debate and defend.

As a materialist?

You want me to concede materialism before we begin? I am not a materialist. However, I was thinking of an argument that given how less we know today - it is REALISTICALLY impossible that we will be able to understand universe using maths and physics in near future. So I was thinking of scientific arguments only.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
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6/9/2011 3:08:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/9/2011 2:01:02 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
Just curious, if you proceed from supernaturalism then it is trivially true. What is your base epistomology?

I believe in God. I believe my God asks me to understand the way this world works so that I may offer thanks in a better way. It also instructs me to use the power of thinking God has given me, to serve humanity.

Since I study science as mandated by my religion, I have never really worried about science disproving God. I am safe in the knowledge that God exists, even if I make a mistake in studying science. I study and discuss science as it is and I was thinking from a purely scientific basis.

I have never studied philosophy. I do not know how to explain my argument in terms of 'base epistemology' - or even what is epistemology in first place.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.