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Jesus, Apocalypse, Greed

Rob1_Billion
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6/15/2011 12:29:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/14/2011 3:40:18 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
...
I agree with this. It may take an apocalypse, it's a shame.

[Justin is responding to my assertation that a utopian AnCom society is unlikely until a moral revolution has occured, and that unfortunately it would appear that an apocalypse is the most likely scenario for this, especially considering the existence of nuclear weapons and environmental destruction that are apparently sealing our fate. I'd like to open a philisophical thread in response to him.]

Yes, we will scramble for every dollar we can get while smothering the life out of this world, destroying everything in the process...and our big reward at the end will be the realization that greed leads to destruction. Trying to cheat humanity of learning that goal too soon is apparently not allowed. Some believe there are innovative ways around reducing greed, like new equitable economic systems or new green technologies, and some refuse to believe there is a problem at all. All these 'false prophets' will be laid to rest in good time.

From every angle I can see, this appears to be part of the natural cycle of evolution. One of the cornerstones of evolution is only changing out of necessity. Watching the slow process of necessity grow is quite tragic, but what's a human to do?

Interestingly enough, it appears that the Bible, of all things, contains all the answers we need to get out of this mess:

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god." It's interesting that Christians aren't vehemently anti-greed, anti-capitalism, anti-corporatism, etc. They don't seem to be able to interpret this passage, apparently.

"Every knee shall bow to me..." "Judge not lest thee be judged..." Together with the story of Cain and Abel, it seems quite obvious that the Bible teaches us not to take justice into our own hands. Instead, we insist on creating laws, putting people in prisons, and have this insatiable need to exact our idea of justice on those who we feel are 'getting away with it' and need to be punished. In actuality, nobody gets away with anything. You can call it karma, if you'd like. Of course it's hard for us to concentrate wealth without laws to protect the wealthy -_-

We also have the list of the 7 cardinal sins, which nobody seems to be able to see are actually sinful. You should see them when I bring them up... they squirm, whine, fight me and call me names, bring up examples that are easily swept aside as garbage... You can't tell people what is wrong because they are so hopelessly immersed in wrongness that they will say anything to prove otherwise.

Perhaps the impending return of Christ is actually to cement in what he originally meant to tell us. Perhaps someone was smart enough to see where we were headed, and was able to predict through moral analysis that we would destroy ourselves in vice. This would have been predictable even many thousands of years ago, as technology doesn't seem to be able toprevent this fate anyway. Perhaps it was seen that after we destroy ourselves, and only by destroying ourselves, we will discover why and how to conduct ourselves sustainably. The bible would therefore, after the apocalypse, continue to be the moral standard for humanity and would survive as a guide to remind us how to avoid a second apocalypse. The bitter irony of having the answer under our noses the whole time will perhaps become the new 'new testament.'
kfc
Justin_Chains
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6/15/2011 2:36:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 12:29:43 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
At 6/14/2011 3:40:18 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
...
I agree with this. It may take an apocalypse, it's a shame.

[Justin is responding to my assertation that a utopian AnCom society is unlikely until a moral revolution has occured, and that unfortunately it would appear that an apocalypse is the most likely scenario for this, especially considering the existence of nuclear weapons and environmental destruction that are apparently sealing our fate. I'd like to open a philisophical thread in response to him.]

Yes, we will scramble for every dollar we can get while smothering the life out of this world, destroying everything in the process...and our big reward at the end will be the realization that greed leads to destruction. Trying to cheat humanity of learning that goal too soon is apparently not allowed. Some believe there are innovative ways around reducing greed, like new equitable economic systems or new green technologies, and some refuse to believe there is a problem at all. All these 'false prophets' will be laid to rest in good time.

From every angle I can see, this appears to be part of the natural cycle of evolution. One of the cornerstones of evolution is only changing out of necessity. Watching the slow process of necessity grow is quite tragic, but what's a human to do?

Interestingly enough, it appears that the Bible, of all things, contains all the answers we need to get out of this mess:

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god." It's interesting that Christians aren't vehemently anti-greed, anti-capitalism, anti-corporatism, etc. They don't seem to be able to interpret this passage, apparently.

"Every knee shall bow to me..." "Judge not lest thee be judged..." Together with the story of Cain and Abel, it seems quite obvious that the Bible teaches us not to take justice into our own hands. Instead, we insist on creating laws, putting people in prisons, and have this insatiable need to exact our idea of justice on those who we feel are 'getting away with it' and need to be punished. In actuality, nobody gets away with anything. You can call it karma, if you'd like. Of course it's hard for us to concentrate wealth without laws to protect the wealthy -_-

We also have the list of the 7 cardinal sins, which nobody seems to be able to see are actually sinful. You should see them when I bring them up... they squirm, whine, fight me and call me names, bring up examples that are easily swept aside as garbage... You can't tell people what is wrong because they are so hopelessly immersed in wrongness that they will say anything to prove otherwise.

Perhaps the impending return of Christ is actually to cement in what he originally meant to tell us. Perhaps someone was smart enough to see where we were headed, and was able to predict through moral analysis that we would destroy ourselves in vice. This would have been predictable even many thousands of years ago, as technology doesn't seem to be able toprevent this fate anyway. Perhaps it was seen that after we destroy ourselves, and only by destroying ourselves, we will discover why and how to conduct ourselves sustainably. The bible would therefore, after the apocalypse, continue to be the moral standard for humanity and would survive as a guide to remind us how to avoid a second apocalypse. The bitter irony of having the answer under our noses the whole time will perhaps become the new 'new testament.'

I do agree that it will take an apocalypse to wake the human population up on a large scale... I do not agree that the bible is an kind of savior. In fact, I would say that since the bible came into existence the problem only got worse. There are plenty of religious books that have good morals throughout and can be learned from, but no religion that teaches in the way the bible teaches will be the answer. Besides, the original bible's meaning is completely different from all of the translated versions.

Humanity needs a new course correction. A spiritual path that blends with the knowledge of science to come into a new understanding of the universe and everything in it. This is the way for mankind to all be on the same page. Once we develop the technology to bring "paranormal" life into mainstream thinking, people will see that there is more to life than just this body we a re driving. When this happens.... There will be a revolution of human thought. Spirituality and science will start to blend and humanity can finally start to live in peace.

Religious or spiritual differences combined with greed, that is one of the main reasons why humanity is the way it is. Tribes lived in harmony with each other and nature for thousands of years without over population, pollution, technology, cars, highways, etc. and they seem to have known the secret all along. Somewhere along the line we started trying to control other tribe members, then other tribes and then building cities and nations that revolve around control and power.

Somewhere in ages past..... We lost our way.
Rob1_Billion
Posts: 1,300
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6/15/2011 5:33:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I do agree that it will take an apocalypse to wake the human population up on a large scale... I do not agree that the bible is an kind of savior. In fact, I would say that since the bible came into existence the problem only got worse. There are plenty of religious books that have good morals throughout and can be learned from, but no religion that teaches in the way the bible teaches will be the answer. Besides, the original bible's meaning is completely different from all of the translated versions.

But the popular meaning of the Bible is in my eyes wrong. What Christians produce using the Bible is wrong. As I refined my moral system, I noticed parallels within the Bible that Christians don't acknowledge. "Do not pray out in public like these fools," Jesus says. Can you honestly say that's consistent with what we are led to understand the Bible means? If you're saying that Christianity isn't the way then I'm all with you, but there are tenets within the Bible that I will vigorously defend and no Christian is going to be beside me while I do it! I don't place metaphysical meaning in the Bible, I'm simply pointing out that some of Jesus' moral arguments are quite sound, not to mention buried.

Humanity needs a new course correction. A spiritual path that blends with the knowledge of science to come into a new understanding of the universe and everything in it. This is the way for mankind to all be on the same page. Once we develop the technology to bring "paranormal" life into mainstream thinking, people will see that there is more to life than just this body we a re driving. When this happens.... There will be a revolution of human thought. Spirituality and science will start to blend and humanity can finally start to live in peace.

There is no paranormal blend with science, because science operates chiefly in the normal. Metaphysics becomes physics if it is captured within the scientific method. You must use the Method if you plan on making any headway with your ideas.

Religious or spiritual differences combined with greed, that is one of the main reasons why humanity is the way it is. Tribes lived in harmony with each other and nature for thousands of years without over population, pollution, technology, cars, highways, etc. and they seem to have known the secret all along. Somewhere along the line we started trying to control other tribe members, then other tribes and then building cities and nations that revolve around control and power.

Somewhere in ages past..... We lost our way.

I think most people are going to just say that we found technology and took off, but I do agree that in this process, we lost many abilities. We are fatter, lazier, and stupider than we once were. Our morals are weaker, and in a certain sense, our souls are thinner.
kfc
interrogator
Posts: 1,322
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6/15/2011 5:42:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Justin and Rob. Perhaps a natural disaster such as a metor crash will
take place soon. I have heard seers that this will soon happen somewhere
on planet Earth. It would take a calamity on a global scale to alter
humanity from the inside out. Or an assasination of a great leader, someone
that is revered worldwide. I hope that this is not the case. But if we continue to go as we are now, then this world will only continue to rot to the core.
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/15/2011 5:45:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The apocalypse is going to be a self fulfilling prophecy, watch.

I don't think human beings will ever have a moral revolution, and if we do, things will fall apart later on anyway.

Human beings are really only good for fvcking everything up. If we don't completely wipe ourselves out, we'll probably end up creating something that replaces us as the dominant life form on the planet. My bet is on Techno-Allah.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
interrogator
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6/15/2011 6:16:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Rob. Our souls are thinner because we have collectively lost consciousness.
Our auras and spirits are being strained and we are becoming filled
with vexation. Things will change when humanity will be forced to compromised.
That time is almost here.
Rob1_Billion
Posts: 1,300
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6/15/2011 7:50:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well my fellow apocalypicts, shall we just join up and commit mass suicide, then?

Anyway, the apocalypse could have many causes, please add to my list as you see fit:
1) meteor
2) supercaldera/supervolcano
3) super earthquake
4) nuclear holocaust
5) mass flooding (e.g., melting of polar ice-caps)
6) chance alignment of stellar bodies, opening a gap between us and the galactic core, unleashing hard gamma rays in our direction
7) passing rogue star ejecting Earth from orbit
8) super germ (e.g., resistant influenza or air-born AIDS)
9) biological warfare
10) fresh water scarcity due to pollution
11) air pollution
12) rise of the machines
13) species extinction -> collapse of ecosystems
14) Solar phenomenon (e.g., flares)
15) Capitalist excursion past carrying capacity of land
16) radioactive release of nuclear waste
17) evolution of a natural human predator
18) Alien invasion
19) Climate warming/cooling (e.g., Venusian runaway greenhouse effect)
20) Superhurricane

At any rate, as far as morality goes, I have to believe that it's possible for us to evolve in this respect. Otherwise, there's no point to any of this.
kfc
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/15/2011 8:53:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The evolution of morality is demonstrable. This doesn't mean we are moving towards a direction that makes the survival of our species more likely.

Anyone who has had the opportunity to deal with regular everyday common people know that we are destined to destroy ourselves. I would probably only excuse someone for being so optimistic if they seriously locked themselves away in their room, or lived a very sheltered existence.

Now, add into the picture a major world religion that has the goal of uniting the world under it, and the idea of a self inflicted apocalypse isn't all that odd. Especially if people can't cool their sh!t in the middle east.

Now, if we do not kill ourselves or get wiped out by some kind of non-human natural disaster.. I think it will be because of the fact that we were replaced as the dominant form of life on this planet. Techno Allah, dawg, it's a comin'.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Rob1_Billion
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6/15/2011 9:17:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 8:53:45 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The evolution of morality is demonstrable. This doesn't mean we are moving towards a direction that makes the survival of our species more likely.

Anyone who has had the opportunity to deal with regular everyday common people know that we are destined to destroy ourselves. I would probably only excuse someone for being so optimistic if they seriously locked themselves away in their room, or lived a very sheltered existence.

Now, add into the picture a major world religion that has the goal of uniting the world under it, and the idea of a self inflicted apocalypse isn't all that odd. Especially if people can't cool their sh!t in the middle east.

Now, if we do not kill ourselves or get wiped out by some kind of non-human natural disaster.. I think it will be because of the fact that we were replaced as the dominant form of life on this planet. Techno Allah, dawg, it's a comin'.

A google search on "techno allah" did not immediately yield informative results. Could you elaborate on this concept? Is it simply an evolution of a species to replace us, somehow being related to technology?
kfc
Rob1_Billion
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6/15/2011 10:29:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 9:03:30 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 6/15/2011 7:50:32 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
I have to believe X. Otherwise, Y (where Y is negative).

http://en.wikipedia.org... :P

That statement was made out of desperation, not logic. As far as logic is concerned, I've seen logical cohesiveness in moral action - it's just a matter of enlightening the public to what's best for them. Apocalypse may achieve the goal of convincing humanity what moral truth really is.
kfc
Thaddeus
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6/16/2011 6:53:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Rob, you are right. Christians should be willing to share everything they have. This is not ideologically incompatible with anarcho-capitalism. I believe that other christians should also put christ before material possesions, however, I can't speak for the rest of the world, and most certainly cannot force them to do the same. Therefore, the political ideology which maximises the freedom to one or the other is anarcho capitalism.
Rob1_Billion
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6/17/2011 1:48:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 6:53:46 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Rob, you are right. Christians should be willing to share everything they have. This is not ideologically incompatible with anarcho-capitalism. I believe that other christians should also put christ before material possesions, however, I can't speak for the rest of the world, and most certainly cannot force them to do the same. Therefore, the political ideology which maximises the freedom to one or the other is anarcho capitalism.

Anarcho-capitalism is great - but not in the state we are currently in. People would have to be well-disciplined to exist in AnCap. Right now, people have several damaging beliefs which, I would say, requires a strong government to account for:

1) I should have whatever my heart's desire
2) The ends justify the means
3) Criminal justice

I would say the main problem with AnCap is the military dillema. I was convinced to sheath my daggers on the public goods issue, however private military organizations make me want to defecate in my pants. So, instead of arguing about how best to fight war, let's talk about preventing war in the first place.

What is the root of war? Answer: human greed. If you want to enjoy the luxuries or a rich country, then you need a rich country. Since all the countries cannot all be rich, they will fight. Therefore citizens should be selective in their luxuries. Instead of just producing whatever we want, we need to fully capture the externalities of each product:

1) what are the full extents of the environmental effects of producing each good?
-- water pollution
-- air pollution
-- resource degradation
-- land-use degradation (e.g., wetlands, rainforest, etc)
-- waste products (often shipped to poorer areas)
This list is not fully comprehensive.

2) Who is going to produce the goods? Are they goods that require lots of menial labor and misery? Do we need to call upon distant communities to acquire the resources?

3) Are the goods excessively expensive if consumed only by a single person (e.g., yachts, mansions)?

Now I could probably expand on this list, but my point is that if any of these concerns are left out of the equation, and we just decide to produce/consume them anyway, then we must go to war. Why? Because they will not be sustainable goods - they are not the goods that everyone can afford to enjoy, so we must therefore create the haves and have-nots to distinguish who gets to enjoy them. Once we create classes in this way, war is inevitable. War is also inevitable in the sense that each country must expand its borders in order to secure the resources to produce whatever it wants.
kfc
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/17/2011 3:27:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 9:17:39 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
At 6/15/2011 8:53:45 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The evolution of morality is demonstrable. This doesn't mean we are moving towards a direction that makes the survival of our species more likely.

Anyone who has had the opportunity to deal with regular everyday common people know that we are destined to destroy ourselves. I would probably only excuse someone for being so optimistic if they seriously locked themselves away in their room, or lived a very sheltered existence.

Now, add into the picture a major world religion that has the goal of uniting the world under it, and the idea of a self inflicted apocalypse isn't all that odd. Especially if people can't cool their sh!t in the middle east.

Now, if we do not kill ourselves or get wiped out by some kind of non-human natural disaster.. I think it will be because of the fact that we were replaced as the dominant form of life on this planet. Techno Allah, dawg, it's a comin'.

A google search on "techno allah" did not immediately yield informative results. Could you elaborate on this concept? Is it simply an evolution of a species to replace us, somehow being related to technology?

I believe in the distinct possibility that a technological singularity will result in us creating(or our creations creating) a super intelligence that makes human intelligence utterly insignificant by comparison. I also believe that if such an event occurs, it is possible that such an entity could gain control over humanity.

Yeah, it is technological evolution leading to an advancement. It is faster than biological evolution, and in the end, I believe it to be one of the most possible undoings of humanity's dominance of Earth.

I call it Techno Allah, because it describes what such an entity would be like, I find the name humorous, and there is a Mr. Bungle song called "The Desert Search for Techno Allah", which only made me want to keep using the name more.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/17/2011 4:44:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 5:33:08 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
I do agree that it will take an apocalypse to wake the human population up on a large scale... I do not agree that the bible is an kind of savior. In fact, I would say that since the bible came into existence the problem only got worse. There are plenty of religious books that have good morals throughout and can be learned from, but no religion that teaches in the way the bible teaches will be the answer. Besides, the original bible's meaning is completely different from all of the translated versions.

But the popular meaning of the Bible is in my eyes wrong. What Christians produce using the Bible is wrong. As I refined my moral system, I noticed parallels within the Bible that Christians don't acknowledge. "Do not pray out in public like these fools," Jesus says. Can you honestly say that's consistent with what we are led to understand the Bible means? If you're saying that Christianity isn't the way then I'm all with you, but there are tenets within the Bible that I will vigorously defend and no Christian is going to be beside me while I do it! I don't place metaphysical meaning in the Bible, I'm simply pointing out that some of Jesus' moral arguments are quite sound, not to mention buried.

I agree.


Humanity needs a new course correction. A spiritual path that blends with the knowledge of science to come into a new understanding of the universe and everything in it. This is the way for mankind to all be on the same page. Once we develop the technology to bring "paranormal" life into mainstream thinking, people will see that there is more to life than just this body we a re driving. When this happens.... There will be a revolution of human thought. Spirituality and science will start to blend and humanity can finally start to live in peace.

There is no paranormal blend with science, because science operates chiefly in the normal. Metaphysics becomes physics if it is captured within the scientific method. You must use the Method if you plan on making any headway with your ideas.

Exactly. Once the paranormal becomes normal... Once the metaphysics become physics... that's when the human race will have a spiritual and physical revolution. That's when we can finally start to get on the same page.


Religious or spiritual differences combined with greed, that is one of the main reasons why humanity is the way it is. Tribes lived in harmony with each other and nature for thousands of years without over population, pollution, technology, cars, highways, etc. and they seem to have known the secret all along. Somewhere along the line we started trying to control other tribe members, then other tribes and then building cities and nations that revolve around control and power.

Somewhere in ages past..... We lost our way.

I think most people are going to just say that we found technology and took off, but I do agree that in this process, we lost many abilities. We are fatter, lazier, and stupider than we once were. Our morals are weaker, and in a certain sense, our souls are thinner.

How did we take off? We lost all of our innate abilities to communicate, to interact, and to heal. Not communication and interaction through technology, but real communication and technology. Not healing as we see medicine today with our prescriptions and machines, but healing in the way that works with the spirit, energy, and nature. The funny thing is that if you would have talked about technology as we have today to tribes 5000 years ago... they would have looked at you like you were crazy. They wouldn't believe it as a real possibility. Now in our day in age people speak of telepathy, astral projection, energy healing, spirit guides, spirit energy, auras, etc. and people almost look at you like your crazy. They can't believe it's a real possibility, just as the opposite situation of the tribesman 5000 years ago.

So the question is.... What will we look like in a few thousand years? Will we blend the sciences with the spiritual arts to create something better than both can be alone? Will we choose one path and leave the other to be forgotten? Or will we exterminate ourselves with our ignorance and greed, never to learn our lesson?
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/17/2011 7:07:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 4:44:28 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
The funny thing is that if you would have talked about technology as we have today to tribes 5000 years ago... they would have looked at you like you were crazy. They wouldn't believe it as a real possibility. Now in our day in age people speak of telepathy, astral projection, energy healing, spirit guides, spirit energy, auras, etc. and people almost look at you like your crazy. They can't believe it's a real possibility, just as the opposite situation of the tribesman 5000 years ago.


Of course. The spread of information is startling now when compared to 5,000 years ago. The people back then who believed in these sort of things back then were ignorant and naive. A mind clouded by superstition is going to drastically alter how you perceive the world around you.

That said, people still believe in ridiculous things that clearly do not happen. I don't think that will ever change.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
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6/17/2011 7:27:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 7:07:15 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

Of course. The spread of information is startling now when compared to 5,000 years ago. The people back then who believed in these sort of things back then were ignorant and naive. A mind clouded by superstition is going to drastically alter how you perceive the world around you.

Cosmic, there is little influence on the availability of information to stopping ignorance because ignorance is almost always a choice. This is so strong that science itself was developed as a methodology to remove it and yet with all of the methodology of science it still exists as a persistent problem, see Kuhn for example. The very basic reason for it is that the vast majority of people tend to have extreme tenancies towards confirmation and attribute bias, this is natural and unless you are trained in experimentation and evaluation and understand the importance of things like double-blind you are not even going to be aware of it.
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/17/2011 7:49:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 7:27:09 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/17/2011 7:07:15 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

Of course. The spread of information is startling now when compared to 5,000 years ago. The people back then who believed in these sort of things back then were ignorant and naive. A mind clouded by superstition is going to drastically alter how you perceive the world around you.

Cosmic, there is little influence on the availability of information to stopping ignorance because ignorance is almost always a choice. This is so strong that science itself was developed as a methodology to remove it and yet with all of the methodology of science it still exists as a persistent problem, see Kuhn for example. The very basic reason for it is that the vast majority of people tend to have extreme tenancies towards confirmation and attribute bias, this is natural and unless you are trained in experimentation and evaluation and understand the importance of things like double-blind you are not even going to be aware of it.

I have a little bit more sympathy for those who were ignorant back then. I can understand how someone living in Egypt might believe that the Pharaoh who built that huge fuggin pyramid was a god. I can have sympathy for the illiterates who gazed in awe at the monstrous cathedrals, and were fooled by the stunning attire of the upper class and the elite into believing that they were divine in some way.

Ignorance is almost always a choice. That said, I think it would be kind of silly to say that humanities greatly augmented ability to communicate and pass on information hasn't had some kind of positive effect on combating ignorance.

Whether it is obvious or not, we are standing on the shoulders of giants.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
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6/17/2011 7:58:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 7:49:45 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

That said, I think it would be kind of silly to say that humanities greatly augmented ability to communicate and pass on information hasn't had some kind of positive effect on combating ignorance.

If you go back to when there was almost no information and asking questions and voicing a consenting view was punishable then yes that breeds ignorance. But we are still polluted by ignorance today and it is not caused due to lack of availability of information. Just ask yourself this, how many out of all the new-agers that you have met carry their beliefs because they have no ability to get the necessary information which would show them to be false. Now extend this to all the interactions that you have had and ask yourself the same question.
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/17/2011 8:13:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 7:58:23 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/17/2011 7:49:45 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

That said, I think it would be kind of silly to say that humanities greatly augmented ability to communicate and pass on information hasn't had some kind of positive effect on combating ignorance.

If you go back to when there was almost no information and asking questions and voicing a consenting view was punishable then yes that breeds ignorance. But we are still polluted by ignorance today and it is not caused due to lack of availability of information. Just ask yourself this, how many out of all the new-agers that you have met carry their beliefs because they have no ability to get the necessary information which would show them to be false. Now extend this to all the interactions that you have had and ask yourself the same question.

If you read the post you initially responded to, I thought I made it clear that I acknowledged this.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Justin_Chains
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6/17/2011 8:41:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The funny thing is that you both act just as ignorant towards the other side and use whatever evidence you see fit to support your case. Spiritual followers and "new agers" are no different. You choose to be ignorant towards their beliefs, they choose to be ignorant of yours. It won't stop until the paths join and become one. This will happen. Science will start to understand and validate previously labeled "metaphysical phenomena" and spirituality will open science's eyes to these new frontiers of exploration.

The paths shall become one.

Also, you do not know how all things of the human races past. There is much that science can only speculate and guess. You do not have a clue as to how the human race was thousands of years ago. Science only knows what it can dig up from the ground or what it can read from some old books.

It's kind of funny though... Almost every single ancient culture believed in spirituality and the power it has. So who is wrong here? Your science or their spirituality? The answer is neither... Both have great things to offer and when combined will be the next revolution or "awakening" of the human race.

The human race has continued to evolve. The modern world that we know is a baby in the eyes of the human race's history. Technology is an ignorant baby when compared to spirituality. But it will learn. It will grow. The modern world that we know, everything that we associate with the "truth" through science is all ignorant of everything that we don't yet understand. 100 years ago there were instruments or technology that could read things that were previously unheard of. Right now we have technology that can read things that we unheard of 100 years ago. 100 years from now we will have technology that can read things that are unheard of right now. The metaphysical world of science will slowly start to unveil itself and the human race will evolve yet again with a new fresh perspective on life and the universe.

Do you really think that you have it all figured out? Do you really think that science has it all figured out?

Why be ignorant of the possibilities?
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/17/2011 9:37:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 8:41:23 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
The funny thing is that you both act just as ignorant towards the other side and use whatever evidence you see fit to support your case. Spiritual followers and "new agers" are no different. You choose to be ignorant towards their beliefs, they choose to be ignorant of yours. It won't stop until the paths join and become one. This will happen. Science will start to understand and validate previously labeled "metaphysical phenomena" and spirituality will open science's eyes to these new frontiers of exploration.

The paths shall become one.

Also, you do not know how all things of the human races past. There is much that science can only speculate and guess. You do not have a clue as to how the human race was thousands of years ago. Science only knows what it can dig up from the ground or what it can read from some old books.

It's kind of funny though... Almost every single ancient culture believed in spirituality and the power it has. So who is wrong here? Your science or their spirituality? The answer is neither... Both have great things to offer and when combined will be the next revolution or "awakening" of the human race.

The human race has continued to evolve. The modern world that we know is a baby in the eyes of the human race's history. Technology is an ignorant baby when compared to spirituality. But it will learn. It will grow. The modern world that we know, everything that we associate with the "truth" through science is all ignorant of everything that we don't yet understand. 100 years ago there were instruments or technology that could read things that were previously unheard of. Right now we have technology that can read things that we unheard of 100 years ago. 100 years from now we will have technology that can read things that are unheard of right now. The metaphysical world of science will slowly start to unveil itself and the human race will evolve yet again with a new fresh perspective on life and the universe.

Do you really think that you have it all figured out? Do you really think that science has it all figured out?

Why be ignorant of the possibilities?

You know, there is a reason I still don't believe in the stuff that you are saying. It's because I have something called "intellectual integrity". It's not that I didn't give the stuff a fair chance(because I have), it is just that none of it is even remotely convincing.

A simple understanding of human psychology explains why ancient people, and indeed people today fall victim to delusion.

An understanding of this human nature is integral to the effective use of chaos magic. That is what all of it is. Chaos magicians prey on those who aren't resistant to psychic attack. Schmucks are a valuable commodity.

See, we are't being ignorant, you are just being arrogant. Despite this, I'll keep telling it like it is. Maybe when you pull your head out of your @ss, you'll get what I'm saying.

Course, that day might never come. Especially since it is hard to take someone seriously who is telling you to pull your head out of your @ss.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
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6/17/2011 9:44:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 9:37:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

A simple understanding of human psychology explains why ancient people, and indeed people today fall victim to delusion.

Why do you think this is, one reason or a host of them?
Rob1_Billion
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6/17/2011 9:52:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cosmic: Don't you find a certain problem in allowing an inferior being to produce a superior being? We cannot even produce a human mind, nevermind a superhuman mind (...awkward sentence, ah screw it). I tend to believe that something cannot fully understand itself. A rock is simple, but it's comprehension is zero. A lower animal has more comprehension/consciousness than a rock, but is far more complex. A human has the ultimate comprehension, but is perhaps infinitely complex. As comprehension grows, complexity grows exponentially in relation. A being significantly more complex than a human would require nothing less than a God to create.

Justin: I see that we are losing skills as technology progresses. Technology replaces certain abilities of ours, and we never fulfill our potential. Many would argue that these skills can be supplanted with even better ones (e.g., an education) but I'm not convinced it's an equal trade-off.

I've never taken ancient spiritualism seriously, however. Maybe I should... I don't know. I think there may be a shred of truth in what you say, but I'm not prepared to declare that ancients were telepaths and sorcerers. I think that our memories are not as honed, our physical abilities are lacking, our morals are more confused, and our creative talents are undeveloped. So many of life's chores are taken care of for us... was it really meant to be that way? And no, I can't just run into the woods and practice what I'm preaching anymore than you can let a fat, declawed housecat into the wild.
kfc
Cliff.Stamp
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6/17/2011 9:58:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 9:52:24 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:

A being significantly more complex than a human would require nothing less than a God to create.

You do realize that science says otherwise quite strongly and you are ok with that?
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/17/2011 10:26:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 9:44:31 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/17/2011 9:37:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

A simple understanding of human psychology explains why ancient people, and indeed people today fall victim to delusion.

Why do you think this is, one reason or a host of them?

Humans are naturally prone to delusion. We have a lot of psychological factors working against us.

Though, you could probably whittle it down to one reason. We aren't perfect.

At 6/17/2011 9:52:24 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
Cosmic: Don't you find a certain problem in allowing an inferior being to produce a superior being? We cannot even produce a human mind, nevermind a superhuman mind (...awkward sentence, ah screw it). I tend to believe that something cannot fully understand itself. A rock is simple, but it's comprehension is zero. A lower animal has more comprehension/consciousness than a rock, but is far more complex. A human has the ultimate comprehension, but is perhaps infinitely complex. As comprehension grows, complexity grows exponentially in relation. A being significantly more complex than a human would require nothing less than a God to create.


Human beings throughout history have augmented their own abilities through technology. That is what technology is, human beings making use of certain aspects of their environment creatively to augment their own physical or mental abilities. We've already created machines that greatly surpass the human mind in certain aspects. It is obvious how we've overcome our physical limitations with technology.

The fact is, we've already created machines that surpass human intelligence in certain aspects. We've yet to create something with a sensory input system as elaborate as what we have though. I think that the ability to "feel" the world around is a necessary chaotic element towards creative thought.

The bringer of Techno Allah will undoubtedly be accomplished with some type of mind augmenting device. Pencil and paper.. This is the simplest mind augmenting device. A calculator, this is another. We have super computers now that give us the ability to do rather amazing things.

If we can create a machine that is intelligent enough to improve on its own design, it wouldn't be long before technology evolves on its own without human intervention. When this happens, it is only a matter of time before a super intelligence arises.

I could be wrong, but I believe that it is a very likely scenario.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Justin_Chains
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6/17/2011 10:41:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hahaha.... I think I will use all of this in my book. You (Cosmic) have inspired a new class of people in my book and maybe a specific character as well.

To Rob. Let your curious nature be your guide. Wisdom starts in wonder. We think alike, you will not be disappointed if you open your mind even more.. Wonder at the possibilities. Research with an open mind and use your intuition as a guide.
Cliff.Stamp
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6/17/2011 10:42:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 10:26:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

Humans are naturally prone to delusion.

I don't think you can call it delusion so trivially as Dawkin's does and if you do then you are being hypocritical (he certainly is). It is going to hinge on what you mean by delusional.

We've yet to create something with a sensory input system as elaborate as what we have though. I think that the ability to "feel" the world around is a necessary chaotic element towards creative thought.

I think you are mixing qualia and senses here, they are two different things.

If we can create a machine that is intelligent enough to improve on its own design

There are computer programs which can write computer programs, genetic and neutral network algorithms allow such advancement. There are also very advanced bots which are doing exactly what you describe. These have passed the turing test and are in continuous development through interaction via the internets. However the biggest obstacle to developing a conscious is the sheer magnitude of resources necessary. This kind of thing is not cheap to fund.
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/17/2011 10:45:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 10:41:07 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
Hahaha.... I think I will use all of this in my book. You (Cosmic) have inspired a new class of people in my book and maybe a specific character as well.


As long as I get to ride in a flying saucer with George Clinton, I'll be happy.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/17/2011 10:59:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 10:42:37 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/17/2011 10:26:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

Humans are naturally prone to delusion.

I don't think you can call it delusion so trivially as Dawkin's does and if you do then you are being hypocritical (he certainly is). It is going to hinge on what you mean by delusional.


I'm not being hypocritical. I never claimed to be free of delusion. I'm fairly certain that there isn't a human being alive who is. Human beings are naturally prone to delusion. Yes, I'm using the word liberally.

We've yet to create something with a sensory input system as elaborate as what we have though. I think that the ability to "feel" the world around is a necessary chaotic element towards creative thought.

I think you are mixing qualia and senses here, they are two different things.


No, I am not. the constant barrage of external stimuli is necessary for an effective recreation of qualia. At least that is my opinion. Our brain is constantly being bombarded with sensory input, and this sensory input effects the cognitive process. Sometimes in very subtle ways. If you pay attention to your body, we have a lot of sensory input.

If we can create a machine that is intelligent enough to improve on its own design

There are computer programs which can write computer programs, genetic and neutral network algorithms allow such advancement. There are also very advanced bots which are doing exactly what you describe. These have passed the turing test and are in continuous development through interaction via the internets. However the biggest obstacle to developing a conscious is the sheer magnitude of resources necessary. This kind of thing is not cheap to fund.

Yeah, so what I'm saying is plausible.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp