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Meta-ethical, normative positions

Merda
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6/18/2011 6:33:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm starting up this thread as kind of a survey on the meta-ethical and normative beliefs of the members of DDO.

Meta-ethically- moral nihilist.
No normative theory.
My manwich!
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/19/2011 6:46:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/18/2011 6:33:18 PM, Merda wrote:
I'm starting up this thread as kind of a survey on the meta-ethical and normative beliefs of the members of DDO.

Meta-ethically- moral nihilist.
No normative theory.

Meta-ethically- Moral Absurdist.
Normative theory- I'm an ethical egoist whose self interest is sometimes altruistic. I enjoy helping people, and while I do things that do not appear to be in my best interest, often times I will do things because I do get something out of it. This isn't because I feel I have to do it, sometimes I do things for the life experience, boredom, or just because I don't place importance on the same things that other people do.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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6/19/2011 7:01:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 6:46:36 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/18/2011 6:33:18 PM, Merda wrote:
I'm starting up this thread as kind of a survey on the meta-ethical and normative beliefs of the members of DDO.

Meta-ethically- moral nihilist.
No normative theory.

Meta-ethically- Moral Absurdist.
Normative theory- I'm an ethical egoist whose self interest is sometimes altruistic. I enjoy helping people, and while I do things that do not appear to be in my best interest, often times I will do things because I do get something out of it. This isn't because I feel I have to do it, sometimes I do things for the life experience, boredom, or just because I don't place importance on the same things that other people do.

This is very rational and probably what I do in practice. However, I don't see this as a theory that can be universalized. To a large extent it seems to be an issue of a person's moral conscience and when practical benefits outweigh costs.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 6:46:36 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/18/2011 6:33:18 PM, Merda wrote:
I'm starting up this thread as kind of a survey on the meta-ethical and normative beliefs of the members of DDO.

Meta-ethically- moral nihilist.
No normative theory.

Meta-ethically- Moral Absurdist.
Normative theory- I'm an ethical egoist whose self interest is sometimes altruistic. I enjoy helping people, and while I do things that do not appear to be in my best interest, often times I will do things because I do get something out of it. This isn't because I feel I have to do it, sometimes I do things for the life experience, boredom, or just because I don't place importance on the same things that other people do.

Altruism doesn't exist.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/19/2011 7:38:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 7:01:35 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 6/19/2011 6:46:36 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/18/2011 6:33:18 PM, Merda wrote:
I'm starting up this thread as kind of a survey on the meta-ethical and normative beliefs of the members of DDO.

Meta-ethically- moral nihilist.
No normative theory.

Meta-ethically- Moral Absurdist.
Normative theory- I'm an ethical egoist whose self interest is sometimes altruistic. I enjoy helping people, and while I do things that do not appear to be in my best interest, often times I will do things because I do get something out of it. This isn't because I feel I have to do it, sometimes I do things for the life experience, boredom, or just because I don't place importance on the same things that other people do.

This is very rational and probably what I do in practice. However, I don't see this as a theory that can be universalized. To a large extent it seems to be an issue of a person's moral conscience and when practical benefits outweigh costs.

I think deep down, everyone is a ethical egoist. Beliefs can alter exactly what your self interest is. It is very easy to project yourself as being society as a whole.

That said, I don't think you "ought to do" what is in your self interest, I don't think you "ought to do" anything. I however, do what I want, and I'm not going to be pretentious about my morality. If I'm nice, it's because I want to be nice. If I'm not nice, it's because I don't want to be nice. For the most part, I treat people the way I like to be treated, but there are people I hold in such contempt that I don't bother. Some people will tear you limb from limb if you do this.

I'm probably not being entirely accurate on my normative position, but it's only because I find the study of ethics to be absurd. Without objective morality, or without the ability to know if there is an objective morality, contemplating ethics is really only meaningful from a social physics perspective. Or, you know, if you want to be a silly romantic and bind yourself to some kind of code of honor.

Meta-ethics is something else entirely, but do to my meta-ethical stance, normative ethics is kind of irrelevant. At the same time, it is my belief that what you "ought to do" is what is eventually done, as there is no other outcome that could have possibly happened. What you "ought to do" is what is real. Good is true, evil is false.

Yet, while good is evil, and false is false, All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.

Human reality is absurd.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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6/19/2011 7:45:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.

I would accept that definition (for this conversation only, not in general) and still assert that it doesn't truly exist and instead the concept was created to give us the illusion that we can act out of interest for another's welfare since selfishness is looked down upon.

Egoism is integral.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Merda
Posts: 322
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6/19/2011 7:46:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.

I think it does. It's just not a very good moral philosophy.
My manwich!
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/19/2011 7:58:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 6/19/2011 6:46:36 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/18/2011 6:33:18 PM, Merda wrote:
I'm starting up this thread as kind of a survey on the meta-ethical and normative beliefs of the members of DDO.

Meta-ethically- moral nihilist.
No normative theory.

Meta-ethically- Moral Absurdist.
Normative theory- I'm an ethical egoist whose self interest is sometimes altruistic. I enjoy helping people, and while I do things that do not appear to be in my best interest, often times I will do things because I do get something out of it. This isn't because I feel I have to do it, sometimes I do things for the life experience, boredom, or just because I don't place importance on the same things that other people do.

Altruism doesn't exist.

I meant to say "..whose self interest sometimes appears altruistic."

My bad.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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6/19/2011 8:07:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 7:46:26 PM, Merda wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.

I think it does.

Why?

It's just not a very good moral philosophy.

Are you insinuating that there IS a good moral philosophy? Because I would have to disagree. :P
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
tvellalott
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6/19/2011 8:10:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 7:45:31 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.

I would accept that definition (for this conversation only, not in general) and still assert that it doesn't truly exist and instead the concept was created to give us the illusion that we can act out of interest for another's welfare since selfishness is looked down upon.

Egoism is integral.

Interesting. I'm not surprised you feel that way.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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headphonegut
Posts: 4,122
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6/19/2011 8:11:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think that chrisitians and muslims would disagree with you 
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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6/19/2011 8:11:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 8:10:57 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:45:31 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.

I would accept that definition (for this conversation only, not in general) and still assert that it doesn't truly exist and instead the concept was created to give us the illusion that we can act out of interest for another's welfare since selfishness is looked down upon.

Egoism is integral.

Interesting. I'm not surprised you feel that way.

I feel like that could be an insult... XD
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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6/19/2011 8:13:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
That said, I don't think you "ought to do" what is in your self interest

Then you're not an ethical egoist. You just refuted the definition of it.

I don't think you "ought to do" anything

Normative nihilism? It is not obligatory to save a drowning child when it's little inconvenience to yourself?

Without objective morality, or without the ability to know if there is an objective morality, contemplating ethics is really only meaningful from a social physics perspective.

I think social physics is fascinating, frankly. But it seems like in a moral dilemma, the way you've described it, you would only act how you feel at the moment. Do your moral views differ from day to day or is there some consistency? This consistency that the vast majority of us have builds a foundation for a belief system. The next step is to organize that consistency and make a little sense of it. There would seem to be an intellectual base to an individual's morality if he holds consistent moral beliefs that are more than just the product of feeling a certain way at a certain time.

I'm a moral nihilist. I don't believe in some in-built moral code in this universe. I tend to think of normative philosophy of "If you could have it your way then what?" If you want to stick by the contention that people are not obligated to save drowning children at a little inconvenience to themselves, then do that. If, on the other hand, you do affirm that you hold consistency in your views I would encourage you to explore that.
OMGJustinBieber
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6/19/2011 8:14:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 8:07:45 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:46:26 PM, Merda wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.

I think it does.

Why?

It's just not a very good moral philosophy.

Are you insinuating that there IS a good moral philosophy? Because I would have to disagree. :P

This is because you have jumped to the conclusion that moral nihilism demands that.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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6/19/2011 8:16:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 8:11:59 PM, annhasle wrote:
I feel like that could be an insult... XD

It could be... :p
I know your views quite well after all.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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6/19/2011 8:25:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 8:14:47 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 6/19/2011 8:07:45 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:46:26 PM, Merda wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.

I think it does.

Why?

It's just not a very good moral philosophy.

Are you insinuating that there IS a good moral philosophy? Because I would have to disagree. :P

This is because you have jumped to the conclusion that moral nihilism demands that.

1. How could you possible know if I jumped to such a conclusion?

2. How could you possibly know if I believe moral nihilism demands such an assertion?

3. Don't answer 1 and 2 -- I will. You CAN'T possibly know and instead are assuming. If you feel comfortable doing so, fine. But you are incorrect. I do not "jump to conclusions" -- I analyze and study before coming to conclusions. You obviously have no knowledge of my views or personality if you felt that your post was an accurate portrayal of my thought process.

So you do not make a fool of yourself again, I will be very clear. I would define a "good moral philosophy" as a moral philosophy which is logically consistent and applicable to life in such a way that it maximizes my emotional and/or physical well-being. Such a moral philosophy does not exist. And since it is nonexistent, I am a moral nihilist.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
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6/19/2011 8:26:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 8:16:45 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 8:11:59 PM, annhasle wrote:
I feel like that could be an insult... XD

It could be... :p
I know your views quite well after all.

After all we've been through, you're insulting me?! :'(
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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6/19/2011 8:27:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 8:26:06 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 6/19/2011 8:16:45 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 8:11:59 PM, annhasle wrote:
I feel like that could be an insult... XD

It could be... :p
I know your views quite well after all.

After all we've been through, you're insulting me?! :'(

Well, it depends on what you interpret as an insult. I'm merely saying I predicted such a response, not that I find your opinion illogical, though it differs from mine. :D
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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OMGJustinBieber
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6/19/2011 8:29:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
1. How could you possible know if I jumped to such a conclusion?

2. How could you possibly know if I believe moral nihilism demands such an assertion?

Because the moral nihilists on this website take it as an axiom that moral nihilism demands a nihilistic normative philosophy.
Merda
Posts: 322
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6/19/2011 8:34:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 8:07:45 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:46:26 PM, Merda wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.

I think it does.

Why?

I define altruism as putting other's needs before one's own. We can see that this exists. I don't think it has any intellectual or philosophical merit, though I do not deny it's existence.

It's just not a very good moral philosophy.

Are you insinuating that there IS a good moral philosophy? Because I would have to disagree. :P

If I say I don't believe that Jesus was God, does that mean I'm insinuating that there is a real God? Perhaps I worded it wrong. How's this? It's not a justified or warranted moral philosophy.
My manwich!
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/19/2011 8:40:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Normative nihilism? It is not obligatory to save a drowning child when it's little inconvenience to yourself?


Probably.. But the thing is, I'd still try to rescue the kid.

As an absurdist, I am aware of what in my life is a fabrication, and what is not. My morality is a fabrication... But I am not amoral.. I have my own morality, but it is because of how I am. I'm an absurdist, not a Nihilist, I'll explain after this...

Without objective morality, or without the ability to know if there is an objective morality, contemplating ethics is really only meaningful from a social physics perspective.

I think social physics is fascinating, frankly. But it seems like in a moral dilemma, the way you've described it, you would only act how you feel at the moment. Do your moral views differ from day to day or is there some consistency? This consistency that the vast majority of us have builds a foundation for a belief system. The next step is to organize that consistency and make a little sense of it. There would seem to be an intellectual base to an individual's morality if he holds consistent moral beliefs that are more than just the product of feeling a certain way at a certain time.

I'm a moral nihilist. I don't believe in some in-built moral code in this universe. I tend to think of normative philosophy of "If you could have it your way then what?" If you want to stick by the contention that people are not obligated to save drowning children at a little inconvenience to themselves, then do that. If, on the other hand, you do affirm that you hold consistency in your views I would encourage you to explore that.

If there is anything that is consistant about my ethics, it is that I live in the moment, like you say. I don't have a code, and I am against a code. I just follow my heart. A lot of it is probably cultural, but I'm not in a hurry to discard it, as I do not think genuine compassion is a bad thing.

My view is probably not going to make sense to a lot of people, but that is how it is.

An absurdist is basically a creative nihilist who rolls with it while realizing that it is silly. An absurdist is a Nihilist who takes subjectivity into account when being objective. It's not deluding yourself, it's realizing that it is pointless, so why the fvck not? A Nihilist is someone who realizes that it is pointless, so why bother?

To oversimplify things a bit. Both philosophies are grappling with the same thing.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
annhasle
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6/19/2011 10:35:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 8:29:07 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
1. How could you possible know if I jumped to such a conclusion?

2. How could you possibly know if I believe moral nihilism demands such an assertion?

Because the moral nihilists on this website take it as an axiom that moral nihilism demands a nihilistic normative philosophy.

Can you hold a non-nihilistic normative philosophy in conjunction with moral nihilism? Yes. Would that be logically consistent? No.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
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6/19/2011 10:38:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/19/2011 8:34:10 PM, Merda wrote:
At 6/19/2011 8:07:45 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:46:26 PM, Merda wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:42:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/19/2011 7:34:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
Altruism doesn't exist.

Define altruism... I would define it "selfless regard for the welfare of other people" and say it does exist and is thankfully an integral part of the nature of many people.

I think it does.

Why?

I define altruism as putting other's needs before one's own. We can see that this exists. I don't think it has any intellectual or philosophical merit, though I do not deny it's existence.

It actually does not exist though. Each action's incentive can be traced back to self-interest. Altruism sounds nice but it isn't possible.

It's just not a very good moral philosophy.

Are you insinuating that there IS a good moral philosophy? Because I would have to disagree. :P

If I say I don't believe that Jesus was God, does that mean I'm insinuating that there is a real God?

No. But the two aren't analogous -- "It's just not a very good moral philosophy" is not a definitive statement like "I don't believe Jesus was God".

Perhaps I worded it wrong. How's this? It's not a justified or warranted moral philosophy.

Sounds good.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/22/2011 11:57:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I take that back, apparently, I'm a Moral Realist

I was not aware that people considered this to be morality.

~~~
Moral realism is the meta-ethical view which claims that:

1. Ethical sentences express propositions.
2. Some such propositions are true.
3. Those propositions are made true by objective features of the world, independent of subjective opinion.
~~~
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp