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Failure of Modern Education.

Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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6/23/2011 1:58:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Modern education is the most failed system on the planet.

Why?

Teaching style. A teacher talks, a student listens. A teacher teaches, a student "learns". This is a failure.
Learning is a two way street. Instead of teachers asking students to memorize factoids by asking them questions and forcing tests on them, teachers should induce students to figure things out on their own by using logic and rationality. Instead of "Corresponding angles on a transversal of parrallell lines are congruent" how about "If the line cuts the lines in the exact same way, what does this imply?" Student: "The corresponding angles are congruent."

I, personally have learned the most from teachers who make the students learn on their own curiosity (a very socratic teaching style).
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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6/23/2011 3:30:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 1:58:04 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
Modern education is the most failed system on the planet.

Why?

Teaching style. A teacher talks, a student listens. A teacher teaches, a student "learns". This is a failure.
Well, there is but only interaction between the teacher and student. I agree that this style is a bit of a "failure".
Learning is a two way street.
Yes. The teacher teaches. The student learns, and sometimes, teaches the teacher.
Instead of teachers asking students to memorize factoids by asking them questions and forcing tests on them, teachers should induce students to figure things out on their own by using logic and rationality.
Unlike how many abuse the use of logic and rationality in their words, I agree. But I do want to know that perhaps there should be more than just logic and rationality as well. I advocate a larger area of studies: humanities, splitting biology into different fields (like human anatomy, and so on), and more educational, after-school programs.
Instead of "Corresponding angles on a transversal of parrallell lines are congruent" how about "If the line cuts the lines in the exact same way, what does this imply?" Student: "The corresponding angles are congruent."
Okay...How about both approaches? I honestly do not think that the former approach is bad

I, personally have learned the most from teachers who make the students learn on their own curiosity (a very socratic teaching style).
Yes, those are probably the best type of teachers.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/23/2011 4:06:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Great topic. I feel that the style of teaching is definitely in a need of revision. Both of you make valid points and I think a teacher who forces information less and lets people try to understand it more, this is a great system. A good teacher would be able to give the student the correct tools to make sense out of the information, but not try to force it upon a mind that does not have the right tools yet or is not ready.

Also, I think that their should be far more teachers than what their is right now within the educational system and the job should be taken to new heights. A new pay scale is in order. Education is probably the single most important thing in human existence, that and health. It should be one of the highest paid occupations and it should carry a whole different weight than what it currently does. It should carry more respect and a higher standard. Teachers need to rise up in society to claim the position that is rightfully theirs. Teachers give us the tools to develop our intelligence. I would say that is a very important place in society. One that we do not value or respect enough as a society.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/23/2011 4:06:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You only learn if you want to learn.

The most an education system can do is get a kid so that they want to learn. I doubt that will ever happen.

School certainly didn't make me want to learn. That is why I am here today, ladies and gentlemen. A buffoon of the highest caliber.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/23/2011 4:15:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 1:58:04 PM, Rockylightning wrote:

Instead of teachers asking students to memorize factoids by asking them questions and forcing tests on them, teachers should induce students to figure things out on their own by using logic and rationality.

The problem is doing this with the constraint of limited time, asymmetric abilities and forced standard testing.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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6/23/2011 4:53:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 4:15:38 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/23/2011 1:58:04 PM, Rockylightning wrote:

Instead of teachers asking students to memorize factoids by asking them questions and forcing tests on them, teachers should induce students to figure things out on their own by using logic and rationality.

The problem is doing this with the constraint of limited time, asymmetric abilities and forced standard testing.

Well, with the presence of teacher unions, bad teachers [whom, as I define, cannot teach their subject, is unnecessarily harsh to their students (i.e. taking off four points for one minor mistake in spelling), and fails to motivate the students into learning] still are here.
And, as Cliff pointed out, there is "forced standard testing." Subjects are forced to be taught for just one test. One prime example are the Regents (which, as of today, I have taken geometry, and one about the living environment). Subjects such as biology should not be taught to the test: a student should not have to worry about reading diagrams, struggling to read the test maker's language, remember and remember all those facts, and so on. I find this problem with the geometry Regents. Instead of emphasizing creative thinking and flexibility, theorems and theorems, postulates, coronallies, and formulas are given, along with questions that barely require a thought to solve. If one wants true understanding of a subject, he/she should something more than reviewing notes or doing classwork. Ultimately, that is one of the major problems of MODERN EDUCATION

It's a problem that even we cannot solve in our own lifetimes.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
rarugged
Posts: 172
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6/23/2011 5:54:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The failure of modern education comes from the appalling lack of qualified teachers, a far-too-heavy emphasis on numerical statistics and rote work, and insensible policies that are utilitarian in nature.

Also, the system of grants and government funding means that schools are slaves to the funds and often cut programs and classes for determined students in order to sponsor dances and far-too-expensive parties/activities/quad-days.

There is like literally no way to argue school policy.
If Jesus came back tomorrow, a cross would be the last thing he would want to see.
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/23/2011 7:30:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 5:54:19 PM, rarugged wrote:
The failure of modern education comes from the appalling lack of qualified teachers, a far-too-heavy emphasis on numerical statistics and rote work, and insensible policies that are utilitarian in nature.

Also, the system of grants and government funding means that schools are slaves to the funds and often cut programs and classes for determined students in order to sponsor dances and far-too-expensive parties/activities/quad-days.

There is like literally no way to argue school policy.

Imagine if we took have the money that we spend on war and put into the education budget. Imagine if there was a separate tax just for education. Education needs more money, so it can become a shining center of importance for society. Education should never have to stop either, all people of all ages should be able to partake easily in higher education. Education should not be restricted to equal how much you can afford, but how much you can learn and how much you want to learn. Such a educational structure would benefit everyone. Having easy access to a higher education for more people benefits everyone.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/23/2011 8:17:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 4:53:23 PM, Man-is-good wrote:

If one wants true understanding of a subject, he/she should something more than reviewing notes or doing classwork.

It isn't a trivial problem because you do need to have standards, teachers just don't need be crippled by them. The problem is that teachers have very little motivation for being creative aside from altruism and it is not reasonable to expect of them what you would not expect from anyone else. It would make my life easier if every sub-contractor I hired would defer all external work and make my contracts priority dominant, but unless I give them reasons to do so then it isn't reasonable for me to complain when they don't. Students are in general as much to blame here as well, it isn't like they have to be lumps of jello pudding either crying "feed me seymour" to the teachers.
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/23/2011 9:24:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 8:17:02 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/23/2011 4:53:23 PM, Man-is-good wrote:

If one wants true understanding of a subject, he/she should something more than reviewing notes or doing classwork.

It isn't a trivial problem because you do need to have standards, teachers just don't need be crippled by them. The problem is that teachers have very little motivation for being creative aside from altruism and it is not reasonable to expect of them what you would not expect from anyone else. It would make my life easier if every sub-contractor I hired would defer all external work and make my contracts priority dominant, but unless I give them reasons to do so then it isn't reasonable for me to complain when they don't. Students are in general as much to blame here as well, it isn't like they have to be lumps of jello pudding either crying "feed me seymour" to the teachers.

They need to be paid a lot more and the standard of what a teacher actually does when he/she teaches (teaching method), needs to be raised on average. I'm sure you can agree with me on this point at least.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/23/2011 9:47:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 9:24:39 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

They need to be paid a lot more and the standard of what a teacher actually does when he/she teaches (teaching method), needs to be raised on average. I'm sure you can agree with me on this point at least.

The starting salaries are decent, the problem is that there no performance incentives. For example all sub-tractors that I hire have an acceleration clause which is essentially half of my lost cost for delays. This means that they are rewarded significantly for increase speed. There are also reward clauses for minimal deficiency lists and other factors. Our in-house workers who get hourly wages get 5% top off payments when they complete work under time budgets. When they show any incentive for upwards career movement then they are awarded with complementary education/training of their choice, either technical or management courses. I also pass onto them any acclaim that we get from our customers with notes of appreciation and small/moderate gifts. In comparison what happens if a high school teacher turns around a student - little to nothing. It all depends on the altruism of the teacher and that system is going to be doomed to fail as it is just human nature.
rarugged
Posts: 172
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6/24/2011 7:58:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 7:30:14 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 6/23/2011 5:54:19 PM, rarugged wrote:
The failure of modern education comes from the appalling lack of qualified teachers, a far-too-heavy emphasis on numerical statistics and rote work, and insensible policies that are utilitarian in nature.

Also, the system of grants and government funding means that schools are slaves to the funds and often cut programs and classes for determined students in order to sponsor dances and far-too-expensive parties/activities/quad-days.

There is like literally no way to argue school policy.

Imagine if we took have the money that we spend on war and put into the education budget. Imagine if there was a separate tax just for education. Education needs more money, so it can become a shining center of importance for society. Education should never have to stop either, all people of all ages should be able to partake easily in higher education. Education should not be restricted to equal how much you can afford, but how much you can learn and how much you want to learn. Such a educational structure would benefit everyone. Having easy access to a higher education for more people benefits everyone.

Money does NOT equal performance.

And, like it or not, the health care debate somewhat imitates the education debate. Health care and education are not RIGHTS. Yes, we should aim for a system that is net-beneficial to all sectors of society, but our current system just doesn't cut it.

If you're born in a poor neighborhood, chances are you are going to receive poor education. The reciprocal is true as well. And you can't even pick which school you want to go, because the public system forbids it and the private system is far too expensive.

And I don't really see the "shining" part of our system now. Money will provide short-term fixes to schools in poor neighborhoods. It will not provide any long-term benefits.
If Jesus came back tomorrow, a cross would be the last thing he would want to see.
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/24/2011 3:24:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/24/2011 7:58:37 AM, rarugged wrote:
At 6/23/2011 7:30:14 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 6/23/2011 5:54:19 PM, rarugged wrote:
The failure of modern education comes from the appalling lack of qualified teachers, a far-too-heavy emphasis on numerical statistics and rote work, and insensible policies that are utilitarian in nature.

Also, the system of grants and government funding means that schools are slaves to the funds and often cut programs and classes for determined students in order to sponsor dances and far-too-expensive parties/activities/quad-days.

There is like literally no way to argue school policy.

Imagine if we took have the money that we spend on war and put into the education budget. Imagine if there was a separate tax just for education. Education needs more money, so it can become a shining center of importance for society. Education should never have to stop either, all people of all ages should be able to partake easily in higher education. Education should not be restricted to equal how much you can afford, but how much you can learn and how much you want to learn. Such a educational structure would benefit everyone. Having easy access to a higher education for more people benefits everyone.

Money does NOT equal performance.

And, like it or not, the health care debate somewhat imitates the education debate. Health care and education are not RIGHTS. Yes, we should aim for a system that is net-beneficial to all sectors of society, but our current system just doesn't cut it.

If you're born in a poor neighborhood, chances are you are going to receive poor education. The reciprocal is true as well. And you can't even pick which school you want to go, because the public system forbids it and the private system is far too expensive.

And I don't really see the "shining" part of our system now. Money will provide short-term fixes to schools in poor neighborhoods. It will not provide any long-term benefits.

Why would it not include long term benefits?

Do you really think that the education sector gets enough money?