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Paradox - Freedom and Order

Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/12/2011 5:57:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Topic: I have a problem. On the one hand I feel that everyone should be free and on the other hand I feel that the only one to achieve peace is to enforce benevolent order against the negative chaos. Which in turn means taking away true freedom. I understand this to be a paradox.

Can everyone be truly free and live in peace without a system of control?

Can control exist only to combat negative chaos and uphold a benevolent system of order?

Are freedom (chaos) and control (order) destined to an eternal dance?

Negative freedom choices - Positive freedom choices

Negative order - Positive order

Is the only way to true peace and happiness one that only includes the freedom to make positive choices, which is held in check by a positive system of order?
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/12/2011 6:40:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"If you want to be a great leader,
you must learn to follow the Tao.
Stop trying to control.
Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
and the world will govern itself.

The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.

Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes common as grass."

~The Tao Te Ching, Chapter 57
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/12/2011 7:22:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 6:40:10 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
"If you want to be a great leader,
you must learn to follow the Tao.
Stop trying to control.
Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
and the world will govern itself.

The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.

Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes common as grass."

~The Tao Te Ching, Chapter 57

Reply: That is a beautiful passage and I agree with the wisdom it teaches. My concern is that it seems impossible for all humans to choose this path of positive freedom. Which brings me to my point, is it justified to stop the negative freedoms of people from attacking the positive freedoms of people by means of order?

This is my paradox.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/12/2011 7:39:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Reply: That is a beautiful passage and I agree with the wisdom it teaches. My concern is that it seems impossible for all humans to choose this path of positive freedom. Which brings me to my point, is it justified to stop the negative freedoms of people from attacking the positive freedoms of people by means of order?

This is my paradox.

People are a mess because of the fact that others are trying to enforce what they believe to be right on them, or trying to enforce their own will.

This can happen on a scale as large as government, or as small as parents to a child.

The world will always be in a state of chaos. The best thing you can do is just learn to accept and make use of it.

The only effective way to govern is to allow the world to govern itself. You may not like how the world is, but that is how it is. There will never be peace, there will always be suffering. There will always be rich, and there will always be poor. Humanity is far too stupid to reach total enlightenment.

A product of the technological singularity might possibly sort it out.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/12/2011 9:18:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 7:39:08 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Reply: That is a beautiful passage and I agree with the wisdom it teaches. My concern is that it seems impossible for all humans to choose this path of positive freedom. Which brings me to my point, is it justified to stop the negative freedoms of people from attacking the positive freedoms of people by means of order?

This is my paradox.


People are a mess because of the fact that others are trying to enforce what they believe to be right on them, or trying to enforce their own will.

This can happen on a scale as large as government, or as small as parents to a child.

The world will always be in a state of chaos. The best thing you can do is just learn to accept and make use of it.

The only effective way to govern is to allow the world to govern itself. You may not like how the world is, but that is how it is. There will never be peace, there will always be suffering. There will always be rich, and there will always be poor. Humanity is far too stupid to reach total enlightenment.

A product of the technological singularity might possibly sort it out.

Reply: I think that humans are intelligent enough to figure out the answer, but I do feel that there will be hard times until we do.

What do you think of positive freedom being protected by positive order and negative freedoms being controlled through positive order?
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
headphonegut
Posts: 4,122
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7/12/2011 9:33:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 5:57:39 PM, Tiel wrote:
Topic: I have a problem. On the one hand I feel that everyone should be free and on the other hand I feel that the only one to achieve peace is to enforce benevolent order against the negative chaos. Which in turn means taking away true freedom. I understand this to be a paradox.

doesn't sound like a problem more like a dilemma. And your premise assumes that everyone the universe is a perfect place where everyone can get along and in a melting pot. Here's a misnomer people are bastards or assholez due to their upbringing or their own misplaced sense of morality. Also "negative chaos?" and whats true freedom?

Can everyone be truly free and live in peace without a system of control?

no

Can control exist only to combat negative chaos and uphold a benevolent system of order?

no idea what you're talkin' 'bout.

Are freedom (chaos) and control (order) destined to an eternal dance?

not sure sounds like one of 'em impondorables'.

Negative freedom choices - Positive freedom choices

huh?
Negative order - Positive order

gwat?

Is the only way to true peace and happiness one that only includes the freedom to make positive choices, which is held in check by a positive system of order?

true peace?
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/12/2011 10:32:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 9:33:19 PM, headphonegut wrote:
At 7/12/2011 5:57:39 PM, Tiel wrote:
Topic: I have a problem. On the one hand I feel that everyone should be free and on the other hand I feel that the only one to achieve peace is to enforce benevolent order against the negative chaos. Which in turn means taking away true freedom. I understand this to be a paradox.

doesn't sound like a problem more like a dilemma. And your premise assumes that everyone the universe is a perfect place where everyone can get along and in a melting pot. Here's a misnomer people are bastards or assholez due to their upbringing or their own misplaced sense of morality. Also "negative chaos?" and whats true freedom?

Can everyone be truly free and live in peace without a system of control?

no

Can control exist only to combat negative chaos and uphold a benevolent system of order?

no idea what you're talkin' 'bout.

Are freedom (chaos) and control (order) destined to an eternal dance?

not sure sounds like one of 'em impondorables'.

Negative freedom choices - Positive freedom choices

huh?
Negative order - Positive order

gwat?

Is the only way to true peace and happiness one that only includes the freedom to make positive choices, which is held in check by a positive system of order?

true peace?

Reply: You seem to not be capable of comprehending anything I said in this topic. I am sorry, but I see no point for you to be a part of this discussion. Any further participation will just confuse you even more and also show effort towards belittling the discussion as a whole.

Continue if you desire to, but I suspect your only purpose for participating in this forum is to make a mockery of it.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
headphonegut
Posts: 4,122
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7/12/2011 10:38:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
you're an idiot I'm trying to comprehend what you're saying and you're refusing to engage me in a discussion of what you mean. But then again it fits with your logic everyone that agrees with you is right and everyone that disagrees either doesn't understand or is an idiot
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/12/2011 10:39:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 9:18:30 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 7/12/2011 7:39:08 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Reply: That is a beautiful passage and I agree with the wisdom it teaches. My concern is that it seems impossible for all humans to choose this path of positive freedom. Which brings me to my point, is it justified to stop the negative freedoms of people from attacking the positive freedoms of people by means of order?

This is my paradox.


People are a mess because of the fact that others are trying to enforce what they believe to be right on them, or trying to enforce their own will.

This can happen on a scale as large as government, or as small as parents to a child.

The world will always be in a state of chaos. The best thing you can do is just learn to accept and make use of it.

The only effective way to govern is to allow the world to govern itself. You may not like how the world is, but that is how it is. There will never be peace, there will always be suffering. There will always be rich, and there will always be poor. Humanity is far too stupid to reach total enlightenment.

A product of the technological singularity might possibly sort it out.

Reply: I think that humans are intelligent enough to figure out the answer, but I do feel that there will be hard times until we do.

What do you think of positive freedom being protected by positive order and negative freedoms being controlled through positive order?

It is one thing for a human to find the answer, it is something else entirely for it to be effectively implemented. If there is any one thing humanity is good at, it is fugging up.

My opinion is that government already attempts to order things in this manner. Unfortunately, imposing order on a fundamentally chaotic system is nigh impossible.

I am aware of the chaotic system. This is why I am an anarchist. A proper anarchist is one who is aware of chaos.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/12/2011 10:45:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 10:38:09 PM, headphonegut wrote:
you're an idiot I'm trying to comprehend what you're saying and you're refusing to engage me in a discussion of what you mean. But then again it fits with your logic everyone that agrees with you is right and everyone that disagrees either doesn't understand or is an idiot

Reply: I don't have time to explain simple things to simple minds. I am sorry, figure it out and then come and join the discussion. Your accusations are wrongly placed.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/12/2011 10:47:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 10:39:58 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/12/2011 9:18:30 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 7/12/2011 7:39:08 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Reply: That is a beautiful passage and I agree with the wisdom it teaches. My concern is that it seems impossible for all humans to choose this path of positive freedom. Which brings me to my point, is it justified to stop the negative freedoms of people from attacking the positive freedoms of people by means of order?

This is my paradox.


People are a mess because of the fact that others are trying to enforce what they believe to be right on them, or trying to enforce their own will.

This can happen on a scale as large as government, or as small as parents to a child.

The world will always be in a state of chaos. The best thing you can do is just learn to accept and make use of it.

The only effective way to govern is to allow the world to govern itself. You may not like how the world is, but that is how it is. There will never be peace, there will always be suffering. There will always be rich, and there will always be poor. Humanity is far too stupid to reach total enlightenment.

A product of the technological singularity might possibly sort it out.

Reply: I think that humans are intelligent enough to figure out the answer, but I do feel that there will be hard times until we do.

What do you think of positive freedom being protected by positive order and negative freedoms being controlled through positive order?


It is one thing for a human to find the answer, it is something else entirely for it to be effectively implemented. If there is any one thing humanity is good at, it is fugging up.


My opinion is that government already attempts to order things in this manner. Unfortunately, imposing order on a fundamentally chaotic system is nigh impossible.

I am aware of the chaotic system. This is why I am an anarchist. A proper anarchist is one who is aware of chaos.

Reply: I do see what you are saying and I have for some time, it is part of my paradox. I feel that there is a solution, but that it is evading me. It would be easier to just give up and say that there isn't an answer, but I cannot find it in myself to do this.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/12/2011 10:48:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Now now, lets not get pretentious.

*looks at everyone*

What?

It wouldn't hurt to make an attempt to get on the same page, dawg foo gangsta.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/12/2011 10:51:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 10:47:47 PM, Tiel wrote:
Reply: I do see what you are saying and I have for some time, it is part of my paradox. I feel that there is a solution, but that it is evading me. It would be easier to just give up and say that there isn't an answer, but I cannot find it in myself to do this.

Technological singularity is our only hope.

That is my opinion.

Of course, what results from it will either transform humanity for the better, or bring about complete annihilation.

It's a gamble sure, but if we destroy ourselves that way, we probably had it coming.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/12/2011 11:01:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 10:51:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/12/2011 10:47:47 PM, Tiel wrote:
Reply: I do see what you are saying and I have for some time, it is part of my paradox. I feel that there is a solution, but that it is evading me. It would be easier to just give up and say that there isn't an answer, but I cannot find it in myself to do this.

Technological singularity is our only hope.

That is my opinion.

Of course, what results from it will either transform humanity for the better, or bring about complete annihilation.

It's a gamble sure, but if we destroy ourselves that way, we probably had it coming.

Question: Are you referring to something similar like the Venus Project? I do advocate that movement, as I feel it could be a great future for the human race.

Also, I'm not trying to be pretension. That member has been ransacking my posts and I have no resolve to deal with it. If someone can't understand something, they should go learn about it before joining in and mocking a discussion. You understood what was said just fine and we are having a pleasant discussion. I like pleasant discussions.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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7/12/2011 11:18:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 11:01:20 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 7/12/2011 10:51:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/12/2011 10:47:47 PM, Tiel wrote:
Reply: I do see what you are saying and I have for some time, it is part of my paradox. I feel that there is a solution, but that it is evading me. It would be easier to just give up and say that there isn't an answer, but I cannot find it in myself to do this.

Technological singularity is our only hope.

That is my opinion.

Of course, what results from it will either transform humanity for the better, or bring about complete annihilation.

It's a gamble sure, but if we destroy ourselves that way, we probably had it coming.

Question: Are you referring to something similar like the Venus Project? I do advocate that movement, as I feel it could be a great future for the human race.


I'm not sure what the Venus Project is, but to summarize it quickly...

The technological singularity is a predicted explosion in technological advancement that might very will lead to the creation of a super intelligence(I.E. a computer that surpasses even the smartest human mentally in every conceivable way.). If this happens, the hypothetical super intelligence will propel the advancement of technology even further.

It is my belief that the next step in human evolution is likely to be a merger between us and our technology.. In a far more intimate way than we are seeing now even. This will augment our mental abilities tremendously.

Either that, or the robot overlords will wipe us all out. Eh, win some, you lose some.

Also, I'm not trying to be pretension. That member has been ransacking my posts and I have no resolve to deal with it. If someone can't understand something, they should go learn about it before joining in and mocking a discussion. You understood what was said just fine and we are having a pleasant discussion. I like pleasant discussions.

Take the "mocking" as an opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings. Do this at least until it is very clear that the other person isn't really interested in establishing a mutual understanding. That would be my advice.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/13/2011 7:07:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 11:18:07 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/12/2011 11:01:20 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 7/12/2011 10:51:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 7/12/2011 10:47:47 PM, Tiel wrote:
Reply: I do see what you are saying and I have for some time, it is part of my paradox. I feel that there is a solution, but that it is evading me. It would be easier to just give up and say that there isn't an answer, but I cannot find it in myself to do this.

Technological singularity is our only hope.

That is my opinion.

Of course, what results from it will either transform humanity for the better, or bring about complete annihilation.

It's a gamble sure, but if we destroy ourselves that way, we probably had it coming.

Question: Are you referring to something similar like the Venus Project? I do advocate that movement, as I feel it could be a great future for the human race.


I'm not sure what the Venus Project is, but to summarize it quickly...

The technological singularity is a predicted explosion in technological advancement that might very will lead to the creation of a super intelligence(I.E. a computer that surpasses even the smartest human mentally in every conceivable way.). If this happens, the hypothetical super intelligence will propel the advancement of technology even further.

It is my belief that the next step in human evolution is likely to be a merger between us and our technology.. In a far more intimate way than we are seeing now even. This will augment our mental abilities tremendously.

Either that, or the robot overlords will wipe us all out. Eh, win some, you lose some.




Also, I'm not trying to be pretension. That member has been ransacking my posts and I have no resolve to deal with it. If someone can't understand something, they should go learn about it before joining in and mocking a discussion. You understood what was said just fine and we are having a pleasant discussion. I like pleasant discussions.

Take the "mocking" as an opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings. Do this at least until it is very clear that the other person isn't really interested in establishing a mutual understanding. That would be my advice.

Reply: I agree with most of what you said about a technological singularity, to a certain degree that is. Check this out and tell me what you think.

http://www.thevenusproject.com...
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Yarely
Posts: 329
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8/3/2011 12:22:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is why Politics exist. To try to get the perfect blend of freedom and order so that people can be free and yet still be civilized
"Anarchism stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion and liberation of the human body from the coercion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government. It stands for a social order based on the free grouping of individuals""
-Emma Goldman
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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8/3/2011 12:50:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 12:22:31 PM, Yarely wrote:
This is why Politics exist. To try to get the perfect blend of freedom and order so that people can be free and yet still be civilized

Except it never works.
Yarely
Posts: 329
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8/3/2011 12:54:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/3/2011 12:50:41 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 8/3/2011 12:22:31 PM, Yarely wrote:
This is why Politics exist. To try to get the perfect blend of freedom and order so that people can be free and yet still be civilized

Except it never works.

I agree. That is exactly why this is a paradox in the first place
"Anarchism stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion and liberation of the human body from the coercion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government. It stands for a social order based on the free grouping of individuals""
-Emma Goldman
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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8/5/2011 12:41:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 5:57:39 PM, Tiel wrote:
Topic: I have a problem. On the one hand I feel that everyone should be free and on the other hand I feel that the only one to achieve peace is to enforce benevolent order against the negative chaos. Which in turn means taking away true freedom. I understand this to be a paradox.

Can everyone be truly free and live in peace without a system of control?

Can control exist only to combat negative chaos and uphold a benevolent system of order?

Are freedom (chaos) and control (order) destined to an eternal dance?

Negative freedom choices - Positive freedom choices

Negative order - Positive order

Is the only way to true peace and happiness one that only includes the freedom to make positive choices, which is held in check by a positive system of order?

There is a difference between "paradox" and "tradeoff."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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8/5/2011 12:45:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/12/2011 6:40:10 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
"If you want to be a great leader,
you must learn to follow the Tao.
Stop trying to control.
Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
and the world will govern itself.

The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.

Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes common as grass."

~The Tao Te Ching, Chapter 57

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT POPPED INTO MY HEAD.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord