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Prove I'm Not In Plato's Cave Right Now

Hambone
Posts: 18
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7/21/2011 5:05:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Analogy of Plato's Cave has long been the measuring stick by which many people perceive epistemology. How can you know something when you've been conditioned to not even be aware of its existence, how can you know what you're looking at is real, etc. etc. In the analogy, he shackled cave-dweller is emancipated, and begins to see the world for what it is, even eventually seeing his own reflection. "Hooray!" the freed person would say, and we say "Hooray!" because we're supposed to be enlightened as to what we may not be perceiving, right?

Conveniently, you never seem to hear the allegorical comparative about HOW you're supposed to "free" yourself from the "cave." If I'm supposed to be able to see beyond my perception, how do I get there? How can you prove I'm not in Plato's cave right now?

My theory is you can't, because we're not in a cave. Perception is as close to reality as there is, or can be.
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/21/2011 6:10:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 5:05:12 PM, Hambone wrote:
The Analogy of Plato's Cave has long been the measuring stick by which many people perceive epistemology. How can you know something when you've been conditioned to not even be aware of its existence, how can you know what you're looking at is real, etc. etc. In the analogy, he shackled cave-dweller is emancipated, and begins to see the world for what it is, even eventually seeing his own reflection. "Hooray!" the freed person would say, and we say "Hooray!" because we're supposed to be enlightened as to what we may not be perceiving, right?

Conveniently, you never seem to hear the allegorical comparative about HOW you're supposed to "free" yourself from the "cave." If I'm supposed to be able to see beyond my perception, how do I get there? How can you prove I'm not in Plato's cave right now?

My theory is you can't, because we're not in a cave. Perception is as close to reality as there is, or can be.

I've got an allegory for that:

"There once was a deranged philosopher – let's call him Pluto – who kidnapped a newborn and locked him in a cave. He chained the boy down and strapped his head into a contraption facing the far wall. The boy's entire field of vision was a sanded, granite surface and a series of shadows. His ears were positioned perfectly so that he could only hear sound bounce off the cave wall.

The boy's greatest pleasure in life came whenever he saw the shadow of Pluto's head appear at the bottom of the wall. Then, Pluto's voice would echo off the wall and reach the boy's ears as sweet music. Pluto's shadow usually spent his time teaching the boy how to describe his experiences. Occasionally, Pluto's shadow would massage him to delay muscular atrophy.

One day, Pluto's shadow appeared muttering angrily. From what the boy could make out, Pluto's shadow had been persuaded by the shadow of Pluto's fourteen year old boyfriend to "let the poor thing go."

"Am I going to die?" the boy asked Pluto's shadow.

"In a manner of speaking," Pluto's shadow replied, "more specifically, I am going to unchain you."

The boy laughed. "I'm not chained to anything. Look, I can move freely." His fingers wiggled and his thighs flexed.

Pluto's shadow held a oval shadow next to the boy's head.

"What's the apple for?" the boy asked.

In the corner of the boy's eye, a brilliant, indescribable orb appeared.

"A ghost," the boy screamed, "what supernatural phenomenon is this?"

"This is an apple," Pluto's shadow replied.

"Impossible, no apple in existence has that shade of grey. It is the work of forces from beyond."

Pluto's shadow's hand stroked his shadow's beard, "describe what you look like."

The boy rolled his eyes, "is this how you plan to kill me? I have a light grey head with a dark grey neck and a rectangular black torso. Any other silly questions?"

Pluto's shadow grabbed onto the shadow of the contraption. The boy suddenly turned several inches clockwise. The uneven jagged edges of the cave came into view.

"Oh no," the boy moaned, "now I can see into other dimensions."

"Do you-"

The boy interrupted Pluto's shadow with a shout.

"How did you do that?" the boy yelled at the shadow, "I heard your voice in my head before your words reached me. Are you telepathic?"

The boy's ears filled with an angry snort coming from behind him.

"Enough is enough," Pluto said.

"Get out of my head!" the boy screamed.

The contraption whirled around on its axis, and the boy stared straight into Pluto's face.

"Are you ready to get up?" Pluto asked. The boy did not respond. Pluto asked again, no longer expecting a reply. The boy's face remained frozen, eyes wide with sheer terror.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/21/2011 6:12:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You're not supposed to see beyond your perception, you're supposed to take it on faith that your friendly local philosopher or religious leader can, by the grace of God or (In Plato's case) The Perfect Rectangle In Space.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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7/21/2011 8:49:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 6:10:05 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/21/2011 5:05:12 PM, Hambone wrote:
The Analogy of Plato's Cave has long been the measuring stick by which many people perceive epistemology. How can you know something when you've been conditioned to not even be aware of its existence, how can you know what you're looking at is real, etc. etc. In the analogy, he shackled cave-dweller is emancipated, and begins to see the world for what it is, even eventually seeing his own reflection. "Hooray!" the freed person would say, and we say "Hooray!" because we're supposed to be enlightened as to what we may not be perceiving, right?

Conveniently, you never seem to hear the allegorical comparative about HOW you're supposed to "free" yourself from the "cave." If I'm supposed to be able to see beyond my perception, how do I get there? How can you prove I'm not in Plato's cave right now?

My theory is you can't, because we're not in a cave. Perception is as close to reality as there is, or can be.

I've got an allegory for that:

"There once was a deranged philosopher – let's call him Pluto – who kidnapped a newborn and locked him in a cave. He chained the boy down and strapped his head into a contraption facing the far wall. The boy's entire field of vision was a sanded, granite surface and a series of shadows. His ears were positioned perfectly so that he could only hear sound bounce off the cave wall.

The boy's greatest pleasure in life came whenever he saw the shadow of Pluto's head appear at the bottom of the wall. Then, Pluto's voice would echo off the wall and reach the boy's ears as sweet music. Pluto's shadow usually spent his time teaching the boy how to describe his experiences. Occasionally, Pluto's shadow would massage him to delay muscular atrophy.

One day, Pluto's shadow appeared muttering angrily. From what the boy could make out, Pluto's shadow had been persuaded by the shadow of Pluto's fourteen year old boyfriend to "let the poor thing go."

"Am I going to die?" the boy asked Pluto's shadow.

"In a manner of speaking," Pluto's shadow replied, "more specifically, I am going to unchain you."

The boy laughed. "I'm not chained to anything. Look, I can move freely." His fingers wiggled and his thighs flexed.

Pluto's shadow held a oval shadow next to the boy's head.

"What's the apple for?" the boy asked.

In the corner of the boy's eye, a brilliant, indescribable orb appeared.

"A ghost," the boy screamed, "what supernatural phenomenon is this?"

"This is an apple," Pluto's shadow replied.

"Impossible, no apple in existence has that shade of grey. It is the work of forces from beyond."

Pluto's shadow's hand stroked his shadow's beard, "describe what you look like."

The boy rolled his eyes, "is this how you plan to kill me? I have a light grey head with a dark grey neck and a rectangular black torso. Any other silly questions?"

Pluto's shadow grabbed onto the shadow of the contraption. The boy suddenly turned several inches clockwise. The uneven jagged edges of the cave came into view.

"Oh no," the boy moaned, "now I can see into other dimensions."

"Do you-"

The boy interrupted Pluto's shadow with a shout.

"How did you do that?" the boy yelled at the shadow, "I heard your voice in my head before your words reached me. Are you telepathic?"

The boy's ears filled with an angry snort coming from behind him.

"Enough is enough," Pluto said.

"Get out of my head!" the boy screamed.

The contraption whirled around on its axis, and the boy stared straight into Pluto's face.

"Are you ready to get up?" Pluto asked. The boy did not respond. Pluto asked again, no longer expecting a reply. The boy's face remained frozen, eyes wide with sheer terror.

This is good, it asks the question, can we see what has not been seen?
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/21/2011 10:07:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Opinion: Only the inside force of curiosity and wonder of the unknown, or an outside force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/21/2011 10:14:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 8:49:39 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 7/21/2011 6:10:05 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 7/21/2011 5:05:12 PM, Hambone wrote:
The Analogy of Plato's Cave has long been the measuring stick by which many people perceive epistemology. How can you know something when you've been conditioned to not even be aware of its existence, how can you know what you're looking at is real, etc. etc. In the analogy, he shackled cave-dweller is emancipated, and begins to see the world for what it is, even eventually seeing his own reflection. "Hooray!" the freed person would say, and we say "Hooray!" because we're supposed to be enlightened as to what we may not be perceiving, right?

Conveniently, you never seem to hear the allegorical comparative about HOW you're supposed to "free" yourself from the "cave." If I'm supposed to be able to see beyond my perception, how do I get there? How can you prove I'm not in Plato's cave right now?

My theory is you can't, because we're not in a cave. Perception is as close to reality as there is, or can be.

I've got an allegory for that:

"There once was a deranged philosopher – let's call him Pluto – who kidnapped a newborn and locked him in a cave. He chained the boy down and strapped his head into a contraption facing the far wall. The boy's entire field of vision was a sanded, granite surface and a series of shadows. His ears were positioned perfectly so that he could only hear sound bounce off the cave wall.

The boy's greatest pleasure in life came whenever he saw the shadow of Pluto's head appear at the bottom of the wall. Then, Pluto's voice would echo off the wall and reach the boy's ears as sweet music. Pluto's shadow usually spent his time teaching the boy how to describe his experiences. Occasionally, Pluto's shadow would massage him to delay muscular atrophy.

One day, Pluto's shadow appeared muttering angrily. From what the boy could make out, Pluto's shadow had been persuaded by the shadow of Pluto's fourteen year old boyfriend to "let the poor thing go."

"Am I going to die?" the boy asked Pluto's shadow.

"In a manner of speaking," Pluto's shadow replied, "more specifically, I am going to unchain you."

The boy laughed. "I'm not chained to anything. Look, I can move freely." His fingers wiggled and his thighs flexed.

Pluto's shadow held a oval shadow next to the boy's head.

"What's the apple for?" the boy asked.

In the corner of the boy's eye, a brilliant, indescribable orb appeared.

"A ghost," the boy screamed, "what supernatural phenomenon is this?"

"This is an apple," Pluto's shadow replied.

"Impossible, no apple in existence has that shade of grey. It is the work of forces from beyond."

Pluto's shadow's hand stroked his shadow's beard, "describe what you look like."

The boy rolled his eyes, "is this how you plan to kill me? I have a light grey head with a dark grey neck and a rectangular black torso. Any other silly questions?"

Pluto's shadow grabbed onto the shadow of the contraption. The boy suddenly turned several inches clockwise. The uneven jagged edges of the cave came into view.

"Oh no," the boy moaned, "now I can see into other dimensions."

"Do you-"

The boy interrupted Pluto's shadow with a shout.

"How did you do that?" the boy yelled at the shadow, "I heard your voice in my head before your words reached me. Are you telepathic?"

The boy's ears filled with an angry snort coming from behind him.

"Enough is enough," Pluto said.

"Get out of my head!" the boy screamed.

The contraption whirled around on its axis, and the boy stared straight into Pluto's face.

"Are you ready to get up?" Pluto asked. The boy did not respond. Pluto asked again, no longer expecting a reply. The boy's face remained frozen, eyes wide with sheer terror.

This is good, it asks the question, can we see what has not been seen?

Yes, though we are hesitant to accept them. Think of science. It discovers new things (or more accurately, we discover them through the use of science).

What would realistically happen would be that the boy would reject the new world he found, but eventually come to accept it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/22/2011 11:57:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/21/2011 5:05:12 PM, Hambone wrote:
The Analogy of Plato's Cave has long been the measuring stick by which many people perceive epistemology. How can you know something when you've been conditioned to not even be aware of its existence, how can you know what you're looking at is real, etc. etc. In the analogy, he shackled cave-dweller is emancipated, and begins to see the world for what it is, even eventually seeing his own reflection. "Hooray!" the freed person would say, and we say "Hooray!" because we're supposed to be enlightened as to what we may not be perceiving, right?

Conveniently, you never seem to hear the allegorical comparative about HOW you're supposed to "free" yourself from the "cave." If I'm supposed to be able to see beyond my perception, how do I get there? How can you prove I'm not in Plato's cave right now?

My theory is you can't, because we're not in a cave. Perception is as close to reality as there is, or can be.

by retreating from Apparent Reality into Plato's realm of "Ideas"...

too bad that just makes you a silly loon
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."