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Debate Vs. Speech

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/21/2011 6:34:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It just occurred to me that nearly every logical debate fallacy is an excellent persuasive tactic in a speech: Argument from repetition, Argumentum Verbosium, appeal to emotion, appeal to fear, Argumentum Ad Hominem etc.

So, A speech being one-sided, is used to persuade. A debate, being multidimensional is used to compare, evaluate, and determine which position has more support.

My question is this: When trying to determine which course of action to take, is a debate and its results, the side with more support, always the correct choice? Somethings have more support and logical justification than others, but does that automatically mean that we should choose them? Basically, is it always in our best interest to do what is logical? After all, we are still human beings, and not computers. Can it ever be in our best interest to follow the emotive and illogical speech as opposed to the technical debate?

Some logical actions can create fear for example. Is it then worth it to go through with them?

(sorry for the million questions here, just trying to better express what I'm thinking)
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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8/21/2011 8:07:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/21/2011 6:34:30 PM, 000ike wrote:

My question is this: When trying to determine which course of action to take, is a debate and its results, the side with more support, always the correct choice?

No. The winner of a debate isn't based on truth, but on which side is better able to convince the audience.

Somethings have more support and logical justification than others, but does that automatically mean that we should choose them?

Take for example before Copernicus. It seemed logical that the sun revolved around the earth. After all: the sun moves in the sky, we don't feel movement. Sometimes truth seems to be very conterintuitive and even illogical unless we understand the concepts.

Basically, is it always in our best interest to do what is logical?

Define what is 'logical'? It's in our best interest to do what is in our best interest :p. Logic has nothing to do with it.

After all, we are still human beings, and not computers. Can it ever be in our best interest to follow the emotive and illogical speech as opposed to the technical debate?

Yes. Humans are social creatures. If we develop different viewpoints that might be the truth, however do not coincide with what society believes is correct, then you might find yourself losing friends.

Also, If there is no incentive to come with a logical conclusion, then there is not a good reason. It might be better not to figure out the logical conclusion, since sometimes answers are not so simply and might require quite a bit of study to figure out the conclusion.

Some logical actions can create fear for example. Is it then worth it to go through with them?

Why are you afraid? Fear has its purpose, although lots of it has to do with primitive instincts designed before modern times.
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/22/2011 1:51:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I guess the best way to clarify is the question: Is it okay to be illogical?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/22/2011 1:53:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 1:51:02 PM, 000ike wrote:
I guess the best way to clarify is the question: Is it okay to be illogical?

Yes, ignorance is bliss.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/22/2011 1:57:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 1:53:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/22/2011 1:51:02 PM, 000ike wrote:
I guess the best way to clarify is the question: Is it okay to be illogical?

Yes, ignorance is bliss.

Exactly, so if ignorance can help people be more placid and happy as it does for the grand majority of the world, doesn't that sort of nullify its negative connotation?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/22/2011 2:36:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 1:53:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/22/2011 1:51:02 PM, 000ike wrote:
I guess the best way to clarify is the question: Is it okay to be illogical?

Yes, ignorance is bliss.

Logic doesn't assure any knowledge, and ignorance is lack of knowledge, not the opposite of logic.

In the pursuit of happiness, i think it's okay to be irrational on occasion.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/22/2011 3:46:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
okay, honestly, my first responce was just a quick quip, nothing all that thought out (in case no one noticed).

Logic should always be implimented and being illogical should never be encouraged and always frowned upon. However, we must stop and ask "what is logical?" That question depends entirely on what your goal is. If you goal is to simply be happy, appeal to emotion is no long illogical and can be the logical reasoning for something. That may not make something factually correct, but it can make it the correct option to make one happy (which is the goal).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/22/2011 4:00:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/22/2011 3:46:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
okay, honestly, my first responce was just a quick quip, nothing all that thought out (in case no one noticed).

Logic should always be implimented and being illogical should never be encouraged and always frowned upon. However, we must stop and ask "what is logical?" That question depends entirely on what your goal is. If you goal is to simply be happy, appeal to emotion is no long illogical and can be the logical reasoning for something. That may not make something factually correct, but it can make it the correct option to make one happy (which is the goal).

I agree with you, but i am sure someone here will say that that's not logic strictly speaking. However if the value of something is greater by a subjective standard, it's still valued and is part of the equation. However, there are circumstances when there is a purely emotive and irrational response, which may be regretable, but understandable.
Tim_Spin
Posts: 446
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8/22/2011 4:25:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
One should be ilogical if the wish but they should not expect their beliefs or actions not to be criticized.
Astonished, the talent agent asks the man what him and his family call their act.The man responds, "The Aristocrats!"
debate250
Posts: 1
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9/5/2011 5:07:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it depends on the situation. Some situations logic is better for however it is okay to be illogical and go with emotions sometimes as well.
Just1Voice
Posts: 155
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9/6/2011 10:56:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I tend to be more process oriented than goal oriented, but I believe that determining the goal is a vital part of the process.

Logic can be applied in all circumstances that I have been able to conceive of, even if some illogical elements are included in the arguments.

The trick to this lies in getting participants to agree to those elements and define them to mutual satisfaction.