Total Posts:51|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Can Happiness Exist Without Suffering?

Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 11:34:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Simply question, possibly complex answers?

I ask because the most common rebuttal to the Problem of Evil seems to be that evil, or suffering is necessary for the greater good or for happiness.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 11:47:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 11:34:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Simply question, possibly complex answers?

I ask because the most common rebuttal to the Problem of Evil seems to be that evil, or suffering is necessary for the greater good or for happiness.

Who says that apart from Christians trying to reconcile the inadequacy of their scriptures?
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 11:56:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 11:34:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Simply question, possibly complex answers?

I ask because the most common rebuttal to the Problem of Evil seems to be that evil, or suffering is necessary for the greater good or for happiness.

Well, if you are one of those that think hard work is enjoyable, then of course, happiness can exist without suffering.

For others like us, hard work is really necessary for us to be happy. And take it from me, hard work is hardly enjoyable. It's suffering, if anything at all.

Trying to understand the intricacies of digital image processing is no walk in the park.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 12:20:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 11:34:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Simply question, possibly complex answers?

I ask because the most common rebuttal to the Problem of Evil seems to be that evil, or suffering is necessary for the greater good or for happiness.

Yes it can. Happiness is a natural reaction to what pleases us. We do not learn to be happy, and we do not learn what happiness is, we merely experience it. Would you need to have known what cold felt like to experience the burn of flames incinerating your hands? No. The experience of suffering makes one appreciate the moments of his happiness more, but by no means do we automatically cease to comprehend what happiness is because sadness is gone.

The theory of opposites comes as attractive to many people probably to put explanation on the woes of our world. However, it falls short. There's a difference between knowing what happiness is, and appreciating it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 12:38:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 11:47:04 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 8/23/2011 11:34:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Simply question, possibly complex answers?

I ask because the most common rebuttal to the Problem of Evil seems to be that evil, or suffering is necessary for the greater good or for happiness.

Who says that apart from Christians trying to reconcile the inadequacy of their scriptures?

Well they would be the guys to whom the PoE is addressed generally!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
inferno
Posts: 10,678
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 12:44:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
When one is promised eternal life, there is no free road to redemption.
Why would you be allowed Heaven, if you never suffered a day in your life.
You must work to get from point A to B. That is life, deal with it.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 12:55:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 12:44:15 PM, inferno wrote:
When one is promised eternal life, there is no free road to redemption.
Why would you be allowed Heaven, if you never suffered a day in your life.
You must work to get from point A to B. That is life, deal with it.

Why wouldn't I be offered heaven if I never suffered a day in my life?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 12:57:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 12:55:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2011 12:44:15 PM, inferno wrote:
When one is promised eternal life, there is no free road to redemption.
Why would you be allowed Heaven, if you never suffered a day in your life.
You must work to get from point A to B. That is life, deal with it.

Why wouldn't I be offered heaven if I never suffered a day in my life?

Don't respond to him, he'll derail the thread faster than you can blink.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 12:58:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There's a commonly mentioned distinction between simply "evil" and "unnecessary evil" with the latter being untenable with the J-C God. The claim that all evil is necessary, apart from being extremely emotionally unsatisfying, also naturally leads to "then why stop it?"
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 12:59:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 12:57:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/23/2011 12:55:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2011 12:44:15 PM, inferno wrote:
When one is promised eternal life, there is no free road to redemption.
Why would you be allowed Heaven, if you never suffered a day in your life.
You must work to get from point A to B. That is life, deal with it.

Why wouldn't I be offered heaven if I never suffered a day in my life?

Don't respond to him, he'll derail the thread faster than you can blink.

Yea sorry, and I bloody know this, can't help myself.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 1:28:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 11:34:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Simply question, possibly complex answers?

I ask because the most common rebuttal to the Problem of Evil seems to be that evil, or suffering is necessary for the greater good or for happiness.

It can create deeper happiness. Sacrifice generally can lead to gratitude, and gratitude is a major component of happiness. I believe that happiness has been reduced to a trite understanding of something that is far more complicated than i think we realize. A person who makes sacrifices in their life will find greater meaning in their life, and create different and better, deeper values.
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 4:14:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The trick is to turn that which made you suffer, into that which makes you happy.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 4:24:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Pleasure in some cases may not cause happiness (example a drug addict)

And pain and suffering may possibly cause happiness (sadist, adrenaline junky)

I think happiness comes from being in your equilibrium possibly? At peace with yourself and the world?

I think everyone has their own level where they can feel happy.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 4:30:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it can. I doubt one would appreciate one's happy state without some measure of suffering to compare it to, however.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 4:32:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 1:28:31 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/23/2011 11:34:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Simply question, possibly complex answers?

I ask because the most common rebuttal to the Problem of Evil seems to be that evil, or suffering is necessary for the greater good or for happiness.

It can create deeper happiness. Sacrifice generally can lead to gratitude, and gratitude is a major component of happiness. I believe that happiness has been reduced to a trite understanding of something that is far more complicated than i think we realize. A person who makes sacrifices in their life will find greater meaning in their life, and create different and better, deeper values.

Yes Innomen has discovered happiness.

When you no longer want anything.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 4:33:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 4:32:02 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Yes Innomen has discovered happiness.

When you no longer want anything.

Brain dead people are totally happy.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 4:36:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 4:33:51 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 8/23/2011 4:32:02 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Yes Innomen has discovered happiness.

When you no longer want anything.

Brain dead people are totally happy.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

OMG we should have let her live in happiness!
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 4:56:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 4:33:51 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 8/23/2011 4:32:02 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Yes Innomen has discovered happiness.

When you no longer want anything.

Brain dead people are totally happy.

No, being totally happy, or being without want, worry or fear, and being grateful for what you have is very doable, just difficult to sustain.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 5:24:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What is happiness without suffering, though?

Happiness comes from a feeling of being above he normal feeling of indifference, I think, and suffering when you are below. They are yin and yang of each other; you cannot be happy until you experience something different.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 5:30:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 5:24:01 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
What is happiness without suffering, though?

Happiness comes from a feeling of being above he normal feeling of indifference, I think, and suffering when you are below. They are yin and yang of each other; you cannot be happy until you experience something different.

Don't confuse satiation with pleasure.
freedomsquared
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 5:53:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree with one of the previous posts (yin and yang one) to a certain extent. Happiness can only be understood in a relative sense. If we were "happy" all the time, then we would not in fact be happy. We would just be...chillin I guess. With no comparison you cannot know that what you are feeling is a positive emotion, it would instead be a neutral emotion.
But it's Norway, sort of the Canada of Europe."
-innomen

http://www.debate.org...
-humorous debate with brian_eggleston

http://www.debate.org...
-tournament debate, need votes
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 5:57:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You can desire without suffering. I may want to go to Rome, but if I never go to Rome... I will not suffer. I do not suffer right now for not being there. I am completely content wherever I am at, yet still have desires for the future. To never have desire, to never want, this is to never live.

If having desires equals suffering, I would rather suffer and live in my self created illusion of happiness.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
VainApocalypse
Posts: 74
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 7:31:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 11:34:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Simply question, possibly complex answers?

I ask because the most common rebuttal to the Problem of Evil seems to be that evil, or suffering is necessary for the greater good or for happiness.

The answer seems simple, actually, because happiness and suffering are not ethereal, metaphysical concepts. They are discrete neural-chemical states in a tangible system. Given sufficient knowledge of that system, you should be able to engineer perpetual, unconditional happiness -- or suffering -- into a person's brain.

It would not be easy, since the brain tends to exhaust certain neurotransmitters and develop a higher tolerance threshold for drugs and outside stimuli. In principle though, there's no reason why these effects couldn't hypothetically be subverted.
VainApocalypse
Posts: 74
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 7:33:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 7:31:44 PM, VainApocalypse wrote:
At 8/23/2011 11:34:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Simply question, possibly complex answers?

I ask because the most common rebuttal to the Problem of Evil seems to be that evil, or suffering is necessary for the greater good or for happiness.

The answer seems simple, actually, because happiness and suffering are not ethereal, metaphysical concepts. They are discrete neural-chemical states in a tangible system. Given sufficient knowledge of that system, you should be able to engineer perpetual, unconditional happiness -- or suffering -- into a person's brain.

It would not be easy, since the brain tends to exhaust certain neurotransmitters and develop a higher tolerance threshold for drugs and outside stimuli. In principle though, there's no reason why these effects couldn't hypothetically be subverted.

It follows from this that happiness and suffering can exist independently of each other.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 7:53:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 5:24:01 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
What is happiness without suffering, though?

Happiness comes from a feeling of being above he normal feeling of indifference, I think, and suffering when you are below. They are yin and yang of each other; you cannot be happy until you experience something different.

I'd say a better interpretation of Happiness and Suffering using Yin and Yang is that Yin represents a lack of both.. and Yang represents both of the two.

Yin is Accepting of what comes, detached, passive.. if one takes a perspective Beyond themself... a Natural perspective.. an Expansive perspective.. one not tied to their particular cares, one in which you don't get Worked up about things... one is looking at things from a Yin perspective..

This kind of Meditative, detached, perspective is Available to us if we can let things go... and can be useful for avoiding struggle.

Yang would characterize emotion, assertiveness.. and such things.. Both Struggle and Enjoyment would fall under Yang.

Yin however truly does Encompass Yang..

and, well.. when one takes a Yin-type perspective.. the Yang-type perspective still lives within it's folds.. and well.. you can respond to negative yangish drives experience by focusing on a yin-perspective which will make you detached.. or if your yangish experience is moving along nicely, it might be a good idea to keep your Yin perspective in mind.. but can still enjoy things wholly and fully :)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 8:08:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 7:53:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/23/2011 5:24:01 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
What is happiness without suffering, though?

Happiness comes from a feeling of being above he normal feeling of indifference, I think, and suffering when you are below. They are yin and yang of each other; you cannot be happy until you experience something different.

I'd say a better interpretation of Happiness and Suffering using Yin and Yang is that Yin represents a lack of both.. and Yang represents both of the two.

Yin is Accepting of what comes, detached, passive.. if one takes a perspective Beyond themself... a Natural perspective.. an Expansive perspective.. one not tied to their particular cares, one in which you don't get Worked up about things... one is looking at things from a Yin perspective..

This kind of Meditative, detached, perspective is Available to us if we can let things go... and can be useful for avoiding struggle.

Yang would characterize emotion, assertiveness.. and such things.. Both Struggle and Enjoyment would fall under Yang.

Yin however truly does Encompass Yang..

and, well.. when one takes a Yin-type perspective.. the Yang-type perspective still lives within it's folds.. and well.. you can respond to negative yangish drives experience by focusing on a yin-perspective which will make you detached.. or if your yangish experience is moving along nicely, it might be a good idea to keep your Yin perspective in mind.. but can still enjoy things wholly and fully :)

If you are using Yin to represent nothing, then the true yang would be everything.

Also, true balance is the key to yin and yang. Balance is the ultimate paradox and the ultimate truth, for it is and isn't both poles. Balance is the point of creation within yin and yang. The point of manifestation of dualism. It is the infinite center and the infinite boundary. It is the point of the end and the beginning. Balance is eternity. Balance is all and nothing. Balance is the true nature of God.

Mastering balance will help you to master your chosen place among both happiness and suffering.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 8:25:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 8:08:18 PM, Tiel wrote:
If you are using Yin to represent nothing, then the true yang would be everything.

Also, true balance is the key to yin and yang. Balance is the ultimate paradox and the ultimate truth, for it is and isn't both poles. Balance is the point of creation within yin and yang. The point of manifestation of dualism. It is the infinite center and the infinite boundary. It is the point of the end and the beginning. Balance is eternity. Balance is all and nothing. Balance is the true nature of God.

Mastering balance will help you to master your chosen place among both happiness and suffering.

I'm not using yin to represent nothing..
I mean Yin as Everything, all-together.. a comprehensive Whole..

Yang represents particular things.. seen as existent apart.. particular discriminations/assertions.

"Balance" lies in Taking the yang as it comes but not clinging to it... This can be done most easily if one understands it's transitory, or as Nietzsche says of his Apollonian element, ultimately Illusory, subject-based, nature....

The Yin (or nietzsche's Dionysian) Whole is quiet, some would say Meaningless... The Yang (or Apollonian) is active and one might say gives meaning.

the proper "Balance" would be to be able to accept and to (as zhuangzi would say) walk both paths at once.

if one tries to Do away with the Yang (which includes suffering) they're not really seeing the Yin clearly.. and if one sees the yin clearly.. they will accept the yang as it comes.. but understand that it is Not All that there is, and won't get crazy wrapped up with any particular Yangish manifestations to the point where they're living a life full of struggle.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2011 9:08:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 8:25:45 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/23/2011 8:08:18 PM, Tiel wrote:
If you are using Yin to represent nothing, then the true yang would be everything.

Also, true balance is the key to yin and yang. Balance is the ultimate paradox and the ultimate truth, for it is and isn't both poles. Balance is the point of creation within yin and yang. The point of manifestation of dualism. It is the infinite center and the infinite boundary. It is the point of the end and the beginning. Balance is eternity. Balance is all and nothing. Balance is the true nature of God.

Mastering balance will help you to master your chosen place among both happiness and suffering.

I'm not using yin to represent nothing..
I mean Yin as Everything, all-together.. a comprehensive Whole..

Yang represents particular things.. seen as existent apart.. particular discriminations/assertions.

"Balance" lies in Taking the yang as it comes but not clinging to it... This can be done most easily if one understands it's transitory, or as Nietzsche says of his Apollonian element, ultimately Illusory, subject-based, nature....

The Yin (or nietzsche's Dionysian) Whole is quiet, some would say Meaningless... The Yang (or Apollonian) is active and one might say gives meaning.

the proper "Balance" would be to be able to accept and to (as zhuangzi would say) walk both paths at once.

if one tries to Do away with the Yang (which includes suffering) they're not really seeing the Yin clearly.. and if one sees the yin clearly.. they will accept the yang as it comes.. but understand that it is Not All that there is, and won't get crazy wrapped up with any particular Yangish manifestations to the point where they're living a life full of struggle.

Yin and yang can take many forms. Balance cannot. Balance is the creator of Yin and Yang. It is where yin and yang are born into the eternal dance of duality. Balance is the point of creation and destruction. True balance needs not to do anything and therefor is nothing. For if it does something it is not balanced. True balance is in being nothing and everything. True balance the point that can never be truly understood and never be truly reached. True balance is God infinite finite and cannot be conceived by the human mind. True balance is the eternal cycle that never cycles.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2011 9:30:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Isn't suffering the same thing as happiness withdrawal?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.