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How do relativists pass a Math class?

BennyW
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9/12/2011 12:26:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
2+2=4 is an absolute truth, yet relativists don't believe that. Yet I have met a number of relativists on college campuses, do they end up not graduating?
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
BennyW
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9/12/2011 12:57:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 12:35:40 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I haven't met anybody who believes in complete epistemological relativism.

I have met people who try to argue it to its extreme but fail to see how the reasoning they use to support it is either circular or contradictory.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
BennyW
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9/12/2011 1:02:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 12:57:28 AM, BennyW wrote:
At 9/12/2011 12:35:40 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I haven't met anybody who believes in complete epistemological relativism.

I have met people who try to argue it to its extreme but fail to see how the reasoning they use to support it is either circular or contradictory.
For instance a conversation goes something like this:
Relativist: There is no such thing as absolutes
Me: Are you absolutely sure?
They will then either completely not get how saying yes is self refuting or try to backtrack somehow.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/12/2011 1:03:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 12:26:26 AM, BennyW wrote:
2+2=4 is an absolute truth, yet relativists don't believe that. Yet I have met a number of relativists on college campuses, do they end up not graduating?

BennyW, I can debate you on whether 2+2=4 if you like. I will be Con.
BennyW
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9/12/2011 1:19:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 1:03:44 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/12/2011 12:26:26 AM, BennyW wrote:
2+2=4 is an absolute truth, yet relativists don't believe that. Yet I have met a number of relativists on college campuses, do they end up not graduating?

BennyW, I can debate you on whether 2+2=4 if you like. I will be Con.

Alright but I want to first finish one of the debates I have currently also no tricks like adding 2+2 in something other than base 10 because that is not the point, the universal principal is still the same.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/12/2011 10:51:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
See, in the real world, mathematics tends to be relative.

What do I mean by this?

You have 2 apples...

If someone can tell me how this is a relative observation, they gets a prize.

Now that said, when we are talking about idealized mathematics, which is what you deal with in the classroom, there isn't any real room for fuzziness. 2 is 2.

Though, I suppose you could replace 2 with just about any equation or symbol that equals 2... That doesn't really make it relative though.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
BennyW
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9/12/2011 11:04:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 10:51:28 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
See, in the real world, mathematics tends to be relative.

What do I mean by this?

You have 2 apples...

If someone can tell me how this is a relative observation, they gets a prize.

Now that said, when we are talking about idealized mathematics, which is what you deal with in the classroom, there isn't any real room for fuzziness. 2 is 2.


Though, I suppose you could replace 2 with just about any equation or symbol that equals 2... That doesn't really make it relative though.

I think your relativity of having 2 apples has something to do with semantics. Replacing 2 with a symbol such s a dos not change the meaning, nor does II or dos.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
Indophile
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9/12/2011 11:07:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 12:26:26 AM, BennyW wrote:
2+2=4 is an absolute truth, yet relativists don't believe that. Yet I have met a number of relativists on college campuses, do they end up not graduating?

Do you know what an electron is, and where it is going to be, etc.? Yet, electricity works.

I wonder how you end up using lights.....
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/12/2011 11:52:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 11:04:35 AM, BennyW wrote:
At 9/12/2011 10:51:28 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
See, in the real world, mathematics tends to be relative.

What do I mean by this?

You have 2 apples...

If someone can tell me how this is a relative observation, they gets a prize.

Now that said, when we are talking about idealized mathematics, which is what you deal with in the classroom, there isn't any real room for fuzziness. 2 is 2.


Though, I suppose you could replace 2 with just about any equation or symbol that equals 2... That doesn't really make it relative though.

I think your relativity of having 2 apples has something to do with semantics. Replacing 2 with a symbol such s a dos not change the meaning, nor does II or dos.

I know this, and this is not what I'm saying.

Try again.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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9/12/2011 12:40:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I hear relativists critizised all the time but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who seriously upholds the doctrine.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
mattrodstrom
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9/12/2011 3:16:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 1:02:36 AM, BennyW wrote:
At 9/12/2011 12:57:28 AM, BennyW wrote:
At 9/12/2011 12:35:40 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I haven't met anybody who believes in complete epistemological relativism.

I have met people who try to argue it to its extreme but fail to see how the reasoning they use to support it is either circular or contradictory.
For instance a conversation goes something like this:
Relativist: There is no such thing as absolutes

I can see no reason to believe in particular absolutes ;)

Existence exists... Something exists... If you make absolute claims beyond this they're without 'Objective' reason.

Even Mathematics is rooted in no more than what makes sense To People.

I understand mathematics b/c it relies/builds upon something I naturally do... that is conceptualize things as being discreet. 'Number' is the product of your considering your various discriminations.

Me: Are you absolutely sure?
They will then either completely not get how saying yes is self refuting or try to backtrack somehow.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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9/12/2011 3:19:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
without naming/discriminating This and That you'd never come to think of numbers.

and it makes sense that math holds true for All considerations of This and That b/c it is based upon no more than the discrimination of this and that in the first place!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/12/2011 3:20:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There are 2 apples.

These 2 apples are not equal.

At the same time, an apple isn't really an apple.

Does anyone see where I'm getting with this?

I'm dealing with the human tendency to draw lines where there aren't any lines. We begin to believe that these lines actually exist.

Understanding what I am saying is very important to grasping quantum physics.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ore_Ele
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9/12/2011 3:27:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't recall the exact percentage, and I'm too lazy right now to do the numbers, but it is something like 99.996% of an apple (or any solid for that matter... get it, "matter," I cracked myself up) is empty void.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mattrodstrom
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9/12/2011 3:34:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 3:16:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Existence exists... Something exists... If you make absolute claims beyond this they're without 'Objective' reason.

I say this not as an Absolute truth.. but an Empirical one garnered from my natural powers of understanding :P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/12/2011 3:37:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We say there are 2 apples.. Now in simple math, there are 2 apples.

However, no two apples are equal.

Just like if I were to say there are 2 people. While there are 2 people, the two people are not the same.

Apple is a category, and it is completely made up. There is no such thing as an apple. A person is a category, it is completely made up. There is no such thing as a person.

On top of quantum physics, an understanding of this concept will give you a better understanding of evolution. A lot of misinformed arguments could be refuted by getting them to understand what I'm not doing a really thorough job at explaining.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Crede
Posts: 455
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9/12/2011 7:04:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes no two apples are the same, however apples are not defined as their exact physcial makeup in size and formation. Rather they are just the fruit we call an apple. One apple the same size as my head is the same number of apples as one apple the size of of pinky nail. So adding two apples of differnt size, color, or density and formation to two other apples does nothing to take away from the fact that you now have 4 apples.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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9/12/2011 7:16:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 12:26:26 AM, BennyW wrote:
2+2=4 is an absolute truth, yet relativists don't believe that. Yet I have met a number of relativists on college campuses, do they end up not graduating?:

Most people who call themselves "relativists" are only relativists when it comes to morality. Obviously some things are absolutes by necessity. Only an idiot would say that all things are relative. Case in point:

"There's no such thing as absolutes. Everything is relative."

Obviously this is a self-refuting statement for several reasons. I'm sure you can all figure out why.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mattrodstrom
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9/12/2011 7:17:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 7:16:05 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 9/12/2011 12:26:26 AM, BennyW wrote:
2+2=4 is an absolute truth, yet relativists don't believe that. Yet I have met a number of relativists on college campuses, do they end up not graduating?:

Most people who call themselves "relativists" are only relativists when it comes to morality. Obviously some things are absolutes by necessity. Only an idiot would say that all things are relative. Case in point:

"There's no such thing as absolutes. Everything is relative."

I presented a better way of expressing the same sentiment in a post above.

perhaps you could explain why that other formation is only something an idiot would say.. thanks.

Obviously this is a self-refuting statement for several reasons. I'm sure you can all figure out why.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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9/12/2011 7:18:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Here go PL:

I can see no reason to believe in particular absolutes ;)

Existence exists... Something exists... If you make absolute claims beyond this they're without 'Objective' reason.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PARADIGM_L0ST
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9/12/2011 7:23:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 7:18:52 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Here go PL:

I can see no reason to believe in particular absolutes:

Some humans need oxygen to survive? True or false?

All humans need oxygen to survive? True or false?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mattrodstrom
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9/12/2011 7:28:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 7:23:01 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 9/12/2011 7:18:52 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Here go PL:

I can see no reason to believe in particular absolutes:

Some humans need oxygen to survive? True or false?

I have a notion of humans.. and it's true that according to that notion they Certainly need oxygen to survive.. it's due to their physiology.. which operates according to physical laws and such. (all notions of my that accord rather well together)

All humans need oxygen to survive? True or false?

yeah, according to my notion of "human" (that type Physical being) most definitely.

UMMMM.. where's the response/ critique of my statement though?
Are you saying it's Not self-contradictory like that poor formulation/strawman which you cited?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/12/2011 7:31:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 7:04:20 PM, Crede wrote:
Yes no two apples are the same, however apples are not defined as their exact physcial makeup in size and formation. Rather they are just the fruit we call an apple. One apple the same size as my head is the same number of apples as one apple the size of of pinky nail. So adding two apples of differnt size, color, or density and formation to two other apples does nothing to take away from the fact that you now have 4 apples.

Yes, there are 4 apples. However, my point is that this is a relative observation. Objectively, there is no such thing as an apple. Human beings categorize things to make sense of the world, and it is unavoidable. Apple does not actually exist outside of the human mind.

What you are actually doing is laying down certain parameters.. The observation you make is only objective from a relative standpoint. It's imaginary.

Most of what people think of as objective is actually objective from a relative standpoint. Total objectivity can only be what it is, and it becomes nearly impossible to describe effectively. What people are doing is this.. They are observing the universe, but they forget to take into account the tool they are using to observe. The tool that is being used to observe, measure, analyze, etc. effects what is being perceived. Even perception itself is part of this. It is relative.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
mattrodstrom
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9/12/2011 7:36:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 7:28:53 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I have a notion of humans.. and it's true that according to that notion they Certainly need oxygen to survive.. it's due to their physiology.. which operates according to physical laws and such. (all notions of mine that accord rather well together)

If they didn't accord well together then it'd probably be a sign that it was a poor (/not so useful) theory.. and I would be more apt to search for a new one..

For now however Physical Reality is working out just fine ;)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Crede
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9/12/2011 7:41:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Apple: The round fruit of a tree of the rose family, which typically has thin red or green skin and crisp flesh.

The word apple is just a word. Looking to its deffinition we see that that an objective object that meets this discription is an apple. It is not subjective, rather the word is just a form of communication about an object that meets a certain deffinition. Your bascially saying language is subjective even when saying a word that identifies a physical object. This is incorrect and therefore 2 plus 2 apples equals 4 apples.
mattrodstrom
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9/12/2011 7:49:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 7:41:07 PM, Crede wrote:
Apple: The round fruit of a tree of the rose family, which typically has thin red or green skin and crisp flesh.

The word apple is just a word. Looking to its deffinition we see that that an objective object that meets this discription is an apple.

Definitions are Empirical reports as to the meaning of a word in common speech among a group of people.

The Definition does not show the notion of "apple" to reach to describing Objective reality... The behavior of Man is the root of Definitions (that which is observed to come to definitions).. and so one cannot jump Beyond man so quick to say the definitions are Objective... Perhaps man's speaking of "apples" is due to the nature of Man!

end in men describe the Nature of Reality.. the definition shows that people It is not subjective, rather the word is just a form of communication about an object that meets a certain deffinition. Your bascially saying language is subjective even when saying a word that identifies a physical object. This is incorrect and therefore 2 plus 2 apples equals 4 apples.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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9/12/2011 8:00:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/12/2011 7:49:18 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Perhaps man's speaking of "apples" is due to the nature of Man!

or, better said, due to the nature of Man and that of Reality broadly.. and how man's nature interacts with reality..

like maybe "apples" are thought-things of god.. not Really apples.. just fictions of a fictitious physical reality.. Placed in our mind/souls to teach us good lessons like to not eat fruit, and simply bow to god.

or maybe "man" isn't so much a thing of itself.. but better put as a linked series of conscious experiences... which arises due to the nature of things... the Nature of All things being interrelated/interdependent "Man" cannot be said to arise any more from one particular thing than another.. but it exists in concert with all other things... and though I did initially describe man as a linked series of conscious experiences, perhaps even this is Too much, for if ALL things are so interrelated/dependent then to call out these instances of consciousness as Particularly Linked would be unecessary... All things are so linked.
therefore Man is left as a word which comes about due to understandings based in a certain False perspective.. one in which particular Linkages are given precedence over others which are just as existent and "objectively" legitimate.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/12/2011 8:15:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
why did the ball change direction in that manner over Home base?

well.. the Bat Hit it..

and the man swung the bat..

and the man who made the bat carved it so from the tree...

and the tree grew b/c of all that rain that fell..

and that rain fell so b/c ..

and that man swung the bat b/c he saw the ball and had a notion to hit the ball with the bat..

and he was able to b/c ABCDE...

and he had the notion b/c....

and the ball was ...

and it was spinning that way before he hit it b/c...

and etc. etc. etc.

the nature of ALL these things goes into this... and ALL natures are interconnected.

The ball changed directions b/c the nature of reality was such that it would.

"B/C the Man hit the ball"
does not explain it fully, and the degree to which it does explain it relies for it's causes upon millions of other things.

overall the explanation for the ball's change relies upon the Whole nature of things... with any and All particular natures playing Necessary parts.. All determining factors for the ball's Particular changes just as much as all the factors.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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9/12/2011 8:24:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
....

Mathematical Chaos?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp