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Theists, Explain Yourselves!

JustCallMeTarzan
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10/27/2011 10:12:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
And do not just say "I see evidence for God." Explain philosophically in good detail why you believe in God. Justify your reasons for being a theist.

To be honest, I don't get theism, not in an ignorant way, but in a sane, unique, logical way. Theists say there is evidence for God, yet how can there be evidence for God if there is nothing like God to know what evidence for God is?

Go ahead, what are your justified reasons for being close-minded, dogmatic theists?
Kleptin
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10/27/2011 10:30:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
100000 Kleptin points to anyone who responds to this thread with "I just feel God in all aspects of my life".
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ren
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10/27/2011 10:47:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
From another thread:

To be honest with you, I'm not a theologist. It's not that I won't, but I cannot dissect the entire Bible and reflect to you "the most correct" interpretation. What I can tell you is that clearly, after more than 2000 years, there is no consensus. There are a myriad of denominations and a few religions that derive from the Bible and related texts.

That said, my personal beliefs do not concentrate on the minute attributes of Christianity. Every single doctrine that we have, everything that we've learned essentially derive from us, as humanity. All we have are interpretations and historical accounts, which may or may not be accurate. It is foolish to believe that anyone, including myself, truly knows "the truth," but continues living as an irresponsible, irreverent, imperfect human being. I'm a Christian because I'm an objective moralist and I agree with the overarching morals that the Bible reflects. According to the Gospels, Jesus's primary message is that you are to love others as you love yourself, and that you are to trust God. Through prayer and meditation, I have found God trustworthy. Moreover, I am not opposed to the Ten Commandments -- there is benefit to following them, but no detriment. Therefore, they are logical tenets.

This isn't to say that I'm a separatist or an elitist; nor, that I believe I am "more correct" than anyone else regarding their beliefs. It would be a shame to be so narrow-minded, as there is so much that I can learn from everyone, despite their perspectives.

So, to bring it all together, if somehow, it were proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was never a Jesus and God does not exist, it would not change my fundamental beliefs and perspectives regarding life, humanity, and morality. I agree that everyone is evil to an extent, I agree that we are self destructive, I agree that there are objective morals, and I agree that there is a spiritual existence greater than ourselves, whether or not it conforms to traditional views of "God."
Kleptin
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10/27/2011 10:54:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 10:47:51 PM, Ren wrote:

So in other words, the only thing that makes you different from me, an agnostic, is that you have somehow concluded that God exists. You share my skepticism of doctrine.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ren
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10/27/2011 10:54:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 10:54:06 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 10/27/2011 10:47:51 PM, Ren wrote:

So in other words, the only thing that makes you different from me, an agnostic, is that you have somehow concluded that God exists. You share my skepticism of doctrine.

That may be oversimplifying it, but yes, I am skeptical of doctrine.
heart_of_the_matter
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10/27/2011 11:06:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 10:12:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
And do not just say "I see evidence for God." Explain philosophically in good detail why you believe in God. Justify your reasons for being a theist.

To be honest, I don't get theism, not in an ignorant way, but in a sane, unique, logical way. Theists say there is evidence for God, yet how can there be evidence for God if there is nothing like God to know what evidence for God is?

Go ahead, what are your justified reasons for being close-minded, dogmatic theists?

Thank you for the opportunity to share/explain...although the "close-minded" part need not be attached...Especially since I have been on both sides...not knowing God exists (having only belief) and now... knowing with certainty that God exists...so your "close minded" comment (from my perspective) really isn't very impressive or accurate at all...and probably is disrespectful. From a person as intelligent as yourself I see no need for you to use that kind of angle...anyway.

Justify my reasons for being a theist:
*Personal Experience. NOT of any worthiness of myself either, because I was doing a lot of bad things when God intervened into my life and saved me from death and hell. What kind of experiences you might wonder...Some of these include: 3 near death experiences (not the "in the hospital kind" but rather guns pulled on me kind)...in instances like those the veil got very thin...spiritual phenomenon happened a lot. (people being possessed around me etc...). Other kinds of phenomenon would be miraculous intereventions from the other side...exerting themselves physically in this world. So those kinds of things were happening...getting my attention like crazy. At the same time 'coincidentally'? I was pondering my religious views...considering between Eastern religions (ying/yang - good/evil stuff) and also wondering about Jesus Christ and why all these churches were still around. Soon after pondering what Jesus Christ would be thinking about all this stuff happening on Earth (if He was real)...I was given an amazing powerful revelation from God that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He was crucified for the sins of the world. I have known that perfectly ever since that time in 1996, and have testified I know that fact. I don't have to be concerned with what the philosophies of men are...I don't have to read anything about it...I got a person revelation. Later I have learned that God gives this special witness to some people (as found in Doctrine and Covenants 46:10)...that is one of the spiritual gifts I received from God and that I have. I also received further revelations and experiences...including a vision of which Church to join... Further experiences as well have been very powerful also...such as baptism and my patriarchal blessing (the patriarch knowing things about me during the blessing that he would have NO way of knowing except it be given him by revelation), also when the Book of Mormon promise was fulfilled to me (the words were glowing on the page or rather illuminated in light as the Holy Ghost testified to me that the book was true)...basically I have had some many spiritual experiences it would be impossible to describe them all. Purposefully I also haven't shared the more sacred things that have happened to me...but these I hope will suffice to be explanation enough of why I KNOW (not just belief) that God is real.
So in summary in comes down to personal revelation...a person either gets their answer from God OR they just have "belief" only....albeit the belief may be correct still if they believe in God.
Kleptin
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10/27/2011 11:08:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 10:30:19 PM, Kleptin wrote:
100000 Kleptin points to anyone who responds to this thread with "I just feel God in all aspects of my life".

Looks like heart-of-the-matter is the first one to win my awesome prize.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
jharry
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10/27/2011 11:16:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 10:30:19 PM, Kleptin wrote:
100000 Kleptin points to anyone who responds to this thread with "I just feel God in all aspects of my life".

I feel God in all aspects of my life.

How do these points work? Can I spend them at kleptin land?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jat93
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10/28/2011 2:22:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 10:12:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
And do not just say "I see evidence for God." Explain philosophically in good detail why you believe in God. Justify your reasons for being a theist.

Well, my parents, the religious community with which I associate myself, and most of my friends see evidence for God and make it an important part of their lives. From a young age I was indoctrinated in my current religion and to reject it now would certainly necessitate immense psychological pain, as I would have to reject what I had taken for granted as indisputable truth since a young age. This would undermine the basic foundations of my personality. I'd have to accept that my parents, community, and friends are totally wrong about the most important aspects of life - as a result of this I'd necessarily feel extremely alienated from some of those that I care about most, and also most of the world since atheism is still somewhat a minority opinion. So, in short, not accepting religion as true would force me to start anew in many aspects of my life. That would be downright horrible, and it's much easier to find ways to justify the belief system that I've been forced to subscribe to since the day I could formulate basic thoughts than it is to tear to totally tear it apart.

Also, since my religion was created largely out of the basic human fear of dying and the basic human craving to in some way avoid it, it's really quite bothersome to accept that when I die my consciousness will cease to exist and eventually my body will discriminate six feet under the ground while the world goes on just fine without me. So it's much more emotionally and psychologically convenient for me to believe in some form of afterlife.
Mark1068
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10/28/2011 6:05:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Proving the existence of God can be done within the boundaries of philosophy. Theology is not required. God's existence can be proven absolutely, and certain attributes absolutely possessed by Him, too. He, necessarily, must exist, exist eternally, be omniscient, omnipotent, posses perfect wisdom, be the Creator of everything and be utterly simple and immutable. These facts have been proven by use of proper, in-corrupt, progressive logic by many people. I do think it's (probably) not possible to prove within typical debate parameters. St. Thomas Aquinas, in his work "Summa Contra Gentiles", in my opinion, produced the best work available on this subject. I read it, (with tremendous mental strain on my part to understand it - like a page or two per day), but I did, in the end, have full comprehension of this work - it proves the existence of God. the attributes of God that can be known by reason alone, and - objective morality. Any attempt by me to prove, in similar fashion, would be plagiarism on my part. Further absolutes can be known of God - but theology must take over where philosophy fails. Philosophy proves there is a God, that God gave us reason, primarily, to seek Him - then theology takes over. God, at the edge of philosophy, must then tell us about Him for more to be known. But, I'll save religion for the religion category.
Mark1068
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10/28/2011 6:16:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You refer to life as a gift - and I agree. Happiness springs from gratitude for life.

I'm curious - who's the giver if this gift? I suppose one could say the Universe or something........but then it's not a gift. It's an accident.

You were raised Catholic, correct?

At any point in your life did the thought of becoming a priest cross your mind?

Just curious, if you wonder why I ask. I'm not nuts by the way, these questions have more to do with me than you, I'm sure. I can elaborate if you're interested,.
Mark1068
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10/28/2011 6:32:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/28/2011 6:16:30 AM, Mark1068 wrote:
This is for JustCallMeTarzan:
Earlier, You refer to life as a gift - and I agree. Happiness springs from gratitude for life.

I'm curious - who's the giver if this gift? I suppose one could say the Universe or something other than God or Intelligent Design........but then it's not a gift. It's an accident.

You were raised Catholic, correct?

At any point in your life did the thought of becoming a priest cross your mind?

Just curious, if you wonder why I ask. I'm not nuts by the way, not gay,don't have OCD or anything of the like - these questions have more to do with me than you, I'm sure. I can elaborate if you're interested,. But, I'm asking you for a reason. I don't think many true Atheists exist - I do think most atheists deny God out of anger My curiosity is the reason for the anger. I've had relationships in the past with women who were atheist. It amazed me how much time and energy they put into denying something that, according to them, doesn't exist. It would be paramount to me constantly trying to prove that the government isn't hiding UFO's or aliens. Makes no sense to me.
Kleptin
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10/28/2011 10:02:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/28/2011 6:05:57 AM, Mark1068 wrote:
Proving the existence of God can be done within the boundaries of philosophy.

Please proceed.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
JustCallMeTarzan
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10/28/2011 1:38:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/28/2011 6:16:30 AM, Mark1068 wrote:
You refer to life as a gift - and I agree. Happiness springs from gratitude for life.

Where did I ever say that?


I'm curious - who's the giver if this gift? I suppose one could say the Universe or something........but then it's not a gift. It's an accident.

You were raised Catholic, correct?

Unfortunately...


At any point in your life did the thought of becoming a priest cross your mind?

Nope. Though I think it crossed my brother's.


Just curious, if you wonder why I ask. I'm not nuts by the way, these questions have more to do with me than you, I'm sure. I can elaborate if you're interested,.
Contradiction
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10/28/2011 1:48:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm just going to list the arguments which I find convincing (In order of my personal favorites). It would be too long for me to go into detail.

1. The moral argument
2. The kalam cosmological argument
3. The leibiznian cosmological argument
4. The teleological argument (Classical versions, not Paley's or the modern FTA)
5. The argument from reason (Including the EAAN)
6. The thomistic cosmological argument
7. The ontological argument (Including the Anselmian and modal versions)
8. The argument from religious experience
Kinesis
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10/28/2011 2:27:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The moral argument is your most favourite argument? Really? Do you mean it is more persuasive than the others, or that you actually think it is the most probably sound?
truthseeker613
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10/30/2011 11:23:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 10:12:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
And do not just say "I see evidence for God." Explain philosophically in good detail why you believe in God. Justify your reasons for being a theist.

To be honest, I don't get theism, not in an ignorant way, but in a sane, unique, logical way. Theists say there is evidence for God, yet how can there be evidence for God if there is nothing like God to know what evidence for God is?

Go ahead, what are your justified reasons for being close-minded, dogmatic theists?

A combination of, evidence, and rational trust.

In addition to the standard proofs of god,here is a list of evidence for the validity of the OT, which I have compiled.
Due to limited space here, I provide a # of links at the end.

1) Bible codes.

Probably the coolest.

2)
This one is considered by many to be the best. In my opinion, it is the hardest to convey, (took me a few years to appreciate), so I added some links:

This the basics, I strongly recommend seeing the links:

Uninterrupted train of tradition for thousands of years. Millions of parents passing on the message to their millions of children. The message was not simply, that they believe god is true, as it is in many other religions. But rather that their ancestors (hundreds of thousands of people), actually experienced him, and passed it on to them so on and so forth ever since. This continues till today, in the yearly tradition of Passover.

This link (see others at bottom), contains a brief out line of a lecture by professor gottlieb.
http://www.dovidgottlieb.com......

See more links at bottom of page.

3) Fulfilled prophesies:
I list my 3 favorite:

a) Unlikely survival of the Jew:
This has been foretold in the bible, Genesis 17:7, Malachi 3:6, Leviticus 5:18, Jeremiah 5:18.
Realization:
Mark twains work, entitled "Concerning the Jew":
"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"
(Note this was written before the holocaust and establishment of Jewish state.)
We see from these quotes the impressive eternity of the Jew.
This has been foretold in the bible Genesis 17:7, Malachi 3:6, Leviticus 5:18, Jeremiah 5:18.

b) Jews as light unto nations:
Was foretold in Isaiah 42:6 end, ibid.60:3 geneses 12:2, 3.

These quotes, show part of the realization:

"I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation. If I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ... They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe..."
- John Adams, Second President of the United States
(From a letter to F. A. Van der Kemp [Feb. 16, 1808] Pennsylvania Historical Society)

"If we were forced to choose just one, there would be no way to deny that Judaism is the most important intellectual development in human history."
- David Gelernter, Yale University Professor

"Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world."
- Winston Churchill - Prime Minister of Great Britain

There are more quotes and examples but I choose these, as I am running out of space. The "Jewish light unto the nations" was foretold in Isaiah 42:6 end, ibid.60:3 geneses 12:2,

c): Next is the correlation between fertility of the land
Again I quote mark twain, I don't have space to quote it in its entirety, so the reader is encouraged to look it up in, "Innocent Abroad or the new pilgrim's progress", vol.2 pp.216-359. Mark Twain wrights of the desolation and unsuitability of the holy land. As we see today, the land of Israel is now an agricultural land, following the return of the Jews.
The sources for this prophesy are Leviticus 26:32, 33 duteronamy29:21, 22 Jerimia9:10 Ezekiel33:28, 29 all predict the desolation of the land.
The return is predicted in Deuteronomy 30:3-5 and its following inhibition and fertilization in Ezekiel36:8-11.
We see here the prediction and realization of the Jews miraculous return followed by the lands mysterious revitalization.

Links:

Examples of bible codes and prophesies. #'s 1 and 3.
http://www.evidencefortorah.comxa.com......

Elaboration of evidence #2 and 3
http://www.simpletoremember.com......

The first one is not really relevant.

The 2nd one is good. He elaborates on the 2nd piece of evidence that I mentioned.

The 3rd one is probably best; it is a former philosophy professor at john Hopkins.
He elaborates on the 2nd and 3rd pieces of evidence that I mentioned.

http://www.chabad.org......

Any one seriously interested in the matter I strongly suggests Professor Gottlieb stuff. He has a book, plus 4 lectures on evidence for Judaism, (amongst other stuff.)

One last additional note, Judaism, does not encourage conversion as do all other religions. Belief in god and following 7 basic moral laws suffice for those who are not Jewish.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
tvellalott
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10/31/2011 3:02:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd like to see popculturepooka's response to this thread.

Hopefully something short and snappy. ^_^
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Jon1
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10/31/2011 5:30:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 10:30:19 PM, Kleptin wrote:
100000 Kleptin points to anyone who responds to this thread with "I just feel God in all aspects of my life".

I just feel God in all aspects of my life
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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10/31/2011 4:44:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 10:12:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
And do not just say "I see evidence for God." Explain philosophically in good detail why you believe in God. Justify your reasons for being a theist.

To be honest, I don't get theism, not in an ignorant way, but in a sane, unique, logical way. Theists say there is evidence for God, yet how can there be evidence for God if there is nothing like God to know what evidence for God is?

Go ahead, what are your justified reasons for being close-minded, dogmatic theists?

All this post proves is that atheists have faith that God does not exist. The evidence of that is in the wording, all JCMT has done is change the word atheist to theist. Great job. No other key change has been altered to signify that atheism is any different from theism, rather the only difference in this debate is the wording. All of the concepts are exactly the same. I am happy for anyone to call me an atheist, because atheism, theism, same thing to me. And that is the end of that. But what matters is truth, and that is where Christianity steps in fully and crushes this petty endless debate.
Zetsubou
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10/31/2011 4:54:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
On a sound basis, id est, not sounding insane.

I believe it takes a certain amount of hubris to denounce all superstitions as old wives tales. As such I believe in witches, magic, miracles, demons, ghosts, angels and the lot. It sounds silly at first but the consensus of humanity is with me. I like to trust that humanity is not so naive so follow their invensions as you think they do.

No, I don't feel God nor have I ever felt him. Only those who know that they have may argue with complete vehemousness.

Yeah, I still sound insane, meh.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
GodSands
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10/31/2011 5:04:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 4:54:13 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
On a sound basis, id est, not sounding insane.

I believe it takes a certain amount of hubris to denounce all superstitions as old wives tales. As such I believe in witches, magic, miracles, demons, ghosts, angels and the lot. It sounds silly at first but the consensus of humanity is with me. I like to trust that humanity is not so naive so follow their invensions as you think they do.

No, I don't feel God nor have I ever felt him. Only those who know that they have may argue with complete vehemousness.

Yeah, I still sound insane, meh.

What exactly is farfetched? You only know what it is in terms of what you know, and you know almost nothing in terms of everything. Demons, angels, and the lot, (magic excluded, since magic is suppose to be non-existence) how can you say such is naive? Isn't it naive to suggest the universe has no creator, just as much as it is to think that spirits exist? Or that we evolved from a single cell over 3 billion years, than it is to think that when we die, it isn't all over but instead it is just the beginning of something much, much bigger?
Zetsubou
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10/31/2011 5:32:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 5:04:44 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/31/2011 4:54:13 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
On a sound basis, id est, not sounding insane.

I believe it takes a certain amount of hubris to denounce all superstitions as old wives tales. As such I believe in witches, magic, miracles, demons, ghosts, angels and the lot. It sounds silly at first but the consensus of humanity is with me. I like to trust that humanity is not so naive so follow their invensions as you think they do.

No, I don't feel God nor have I ever felt him. Only those who know that they have may argue with complete vehemousness.

Yeah, I still sound insane, meh.

What exactly is farfetched? You only know what it is in terms of what you know, and you know almost nothing in terms of everything. Demons, angels, and the lot, (magic excluded, since magic is suppose to be non-existence) how can you say such is naive? Isn't it naive to suggest the universe has no creator, just as much as it is to think that spirits exist? Or that we evolved from a single cell over 3 billion years, than it is to think that when we die, it isn't all over but instead it is just the beginning of something much, much bigger?
We have no evidence aside from human word of mouth. It's not insane and nor is it naive but not everyone sees it that way. People apply the scientific method (logic & deduction) in different ways. Atheists, before the pop culture boom, were formed from the radical positivist, empiricist and rationalist schools. They denouced religious faith as unscientific and irrational because of there methods of thinking. Years later you got works of Marx, Nietzsche, Russell and then atheism caught on.

People are different. They don't see it as you and I do because they are too stoic by nature.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
GodSands
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10/31/2011 5:56:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 5:32:27 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 10/31/2011 5:04:44 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 10/31/2011 4:54:13 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
On a sound basis, id est, not sounding insane.

I believe it takes a certain amount of hubris to denounce all superstitions as old wives tales. As such I believe in witches, magic, miracles, demons, ghosts, angels and the lot. It sounds silly at first but the consensus of humanity is with me. I like to trust that humanity is not so naive so follow their invensions as you think they do.

No, I don't feel God nor have I ever felt him. Only those who know that they have may argue with complete vehemousness.

Yeah, I still sound insane, meh.

What exactly is farfetched? You only know what it is in terms of what you know, and you know almost nothing in terms of everything. Demons, angels, and the lot, (magic excluded, since magic is suppose to be non-existence) how can you say such is naive? Isn't it naive to suggest the universe has no creator, just as much as it is to think that spirits exist? Or that we evolved from a single cell over 3 billion years, than it is to think that when we die, it isn't all over but instead it is just the beginning of something much, much bigger?
We have no evidence aside from human word of mouth. It's not insane and nor is it naive but not everyone sees it that way. People apply the scientific method (logic & deduction) in different ways. Atheists, before the pop culture boom, were formed from the radical positivist, empiricist and rationalist schools. They denouced religious faith as unscientific and irrational because of there methods of thinking. Years later you got works of Marx, Nietzsche, Russell and then atheism caught on.

People are different. They don't see it as you and I do because they are too stoic by nature.

Actually, no, the term atheist or atheism originated when Christians claimed that there is no other God but Jesus Christ. They were seen as atheists because they rejected every other god as real. Also, I don't think science holds any key to the universe. You can explore all you wish, know what causes what, and know in the greatest of detail about things that suppress the average mind, but never will science take any man further in discovering what projected the universe the way it is. Science is a 2 dimensional tool, as it shreds no meaning further than what it is. Just like fun, people are only temporary content with it, science is no different, you discover, learn, move on to the next thing. Science even, is like hidden treasure, you discover it, but it really doesn't mean that much. With it or without it, life goes on as if you never knew about it.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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10/31/2011 6:09:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Actually, no, the term atheist or atheism originated when Christians claimed that there is no other God but Jesus Christ. They were seen as atheists because they rejected every other god as real.
That's atheos, first found in the NT. The word atheist was coined much, much later.
Also, I don't think science holds any key to the universe. You can explore all you wish, know what causes what, and know in the greatest of detail about things that suppress the average mind, but never will science take any man further in discovering what projected the universe the way it is. Science is a 2 dimensional tool, as it shreds no meaning further than what it is. Just like fun, people are only temporary content with it, science is no different, you discover, learn, move on to the next thing. Science even, is like hidden treasure, you discover it, but it really doesn't mean that much. With it or without it, life goes on as if you never knew about it.
Only to some, to many the scientific method is the best and only form of deduction between truth and untruth. You may be able to see beyond it perhaps, but not everyone is willing nor able to be like you.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
JustCallMeTarzan
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11/2/2011 6:43:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 4:44:36 PM, GodSands wrote:

I am happy for anyone to call me an atheist, because atheism, theism, same thing to me.

LOLWUT?!?!?!

But what matters is truth, and that is where Christianity steps in fully and crushes this petty endless debate.

You mean where Christianity steps in with conjecture, mythology, and supernatural explanations of things and calls it "truth" ?? Because that's not what truth is at all...
Mikeee
Posts: 234
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11/2/2011 7:50:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 6:43:35 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
You mean where Christianity steps in with conjecture, mythology, and supernatural explanations of things and calls it "truth" ?? Because that's not what truth is at all...

I have a different "take" on religion than most "theist". Most of my beliefs are based off of Buddhist ideas.

When you look back on the history of existence you see three things; good, evil, and the unchangeable. In short; good is the collective will of the souls of past and present existence. Evil, is the opposite, the negative will of the soul of existence. The unchangeable is "the test", in order to to be "good" or "evil", one must be presented with the challenges of life.

"God" or the "good force" is the soul of everything that has existed who has lived a "good" and moral life. The "evil" force is the opposite. The "good" and "evil" are collective, but one single "being". Existence is the constant change between good and evil. At the begging of existence, the soul of existence derived into two separate "Sects" of good and evil, both believing they were contributing (positively) to the development of existence. To distinguish between good and evil, morals were set, and if one did accordingly, one's soul would be considered "good", and would reunite with the collective "good spirit". If one worked agents the moral standers one's soul would be considered "evil". Because of the change of views, one would not permanently be part of one collective spirit. If one changed their ways and views (works both ways), one would be reborn, and have to face new "test" in being reincarnated, and living another life.

Until a point of absolutism is reached, the cycle of reincarnation will continue. Everything that is living has a soul, from plant, to animals, to humans. Reincarnation depends on what views you change.

This is just the short version of what I believe, it is not an "actual religion" and there are more complications that contribute to it, but this is just the basic idea, so one could say, there is not "god"; we all make up a part of "god".