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Does everybody have a conscience?

sadolite
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11/30/2011 4:44:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 4:37:09 PM, Indophile wrote:
Or is it dependent upon the way one is brought up?

I can assure you that a coworker that I work with doesn't have one. He will throw you under the bus one minute and turn right around and try and be your friend when he wants something. He is the most fowl person on the planet as far as I am concerned. Everyone without exception hates his guts. He will do anything to anyone including break the law to get what he wants. He has no conscience, no ethics nothing that even remotely resembles a human being. He will die alone and no one will come to his funeral. Even his son thinks he is a steaming pile of crap.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Lickdafoot
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11/30/2011 4:55:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
i would assume by default everyone does. Those that don't have learned to deactivate it (Whatever "it" is) in the brain due to coping mechanisms. think about all the most notorious serial killers, people with extreme mental disorders such as antisocial, narcissism, etc. Most all of them have had traumatizing experiences or neglectful upbringings. this is what caused them to lack that empathy that is at the root of a conscience.
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thett3
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11/30/2011 4:56:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sociopaths do not have a conscience.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Raisor
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11/30/2011 5:22:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There are many many cases of children who are brought up in abusive homes that have no sense of empathy and have no ability to consider how the consequences of actions might hurt themselves or others.

The documentary "Child of Rage" deals with this. It is the story of a girl who was abused from a very young age. As a result, she has violent outbursts and enjoys abusing her little brother. Eventually she is, I doubt this is the right word, "cured," but the fact is for the first 6 or so years of her life she seemed to have no sense of guilt or right or wrong.

Additionally, there is evidence to suggest that certain capacities (such as language and socialization) must be developed at a young age in order to be developed properly. It might be the case that consciences are mentally faculties developed as an individual grows. If this were the case, individuals might be developmentally challenged with respect to conscience.

In any case, I dont think considering conscience a pregnant entity (you either have it or you dont) is realistic.
mattrodstrom
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11/30/2011 7:53:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 4:44:08 PM, sadolite wrote:
He is the most fowl person on the planet as far as I am concerned.

even more fowl than this guy? o.O

http://us.123rf.com...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
days3331
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11/30/2011 8:02:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes. We all have an conscience but what it entails is developed. Essentially, I think we all are born with an ability to distinguish right from wrong, but our idea of right and wrong is molded by our surroundings.
ExistentialBullcrap
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11/30/2011 8:37:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Whether one has a conscience or not is not a matter of philosophy but that of science, given that science gives a sufficient operational definition for the word, "conscience".

Science, as well as most philosophers by and large, seems to be leaning towards the opinion that everyone does in fact have a conscience. While sociopaths do exhibit some distasteful moral traits, that's not to say that they don't have a conscience, no matter the degree of its deviation from the standard ethical code.
Wnope
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11/30/2011 8:42:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A "conscience" usually exists in the form of mid-brain disgust reactions. Notably, sociopaths are born without these (at least, with an extremely damaged ability to pair disgust reactions with moral situations).

The question is what gets your conscience going. Some mass murderers have a "moral" reaction to seeing rape committed. Some rapists have a moral reaction to seeing animal abuse.
Wnope
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11/30/2011 8:43:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 5:22:11 PM, Raisor wrote:
There are many many cases of children who are brought up in abusive homes that have no sense of empathy and have no ability to consider how the consequences of actions might hurt themselves or others.

The documentary "Child of Rage" deals with this. It is the story of a girl who was abused from a very young age. As a result, she has violent outbursts and enjoys abusing her little brother. Eventually she is, I doubt this is the right word, "cured," but the fact is for the first 6 or so years of her life she seemed to have no sense of guilt or right or wrong.

Additionally, there is evidence to suggest that certain capacities (such as language and socialization) must be developed at a young age in order to be developed properly. It might be the case that consciences are mentally faculties developed as an individual grows. If this were the case, individuals might be developmentally challenged with respect to conscience.

In any case, I dont think considering conscience a pregnant entity (you either have it or you dont) is realistic.

I would argue she has a sense of conscience, simply a warped one. My guess would be many of her violent outbursts are triggered by what she would consider a "moral wrong" done to her.
Lasagna
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11/30/2011 11:41:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The first time I felt guilt I was five years old. My father bought me a sub at subway (subway was a lot different 25 years ago btw) for pre-school, and at lunch I just threw it out. What the hell. The teacher saw me and told my father at the end of the day. Instead of being mean to me about it, he made me feel guilty about the money he wasted. To this day I still feel guilty about throwing away that sandwich.

Experiences like this helped build my sense of empathy. Children don't realize that others have feelings until they make that intellectual leap forward. This development can be nurtured or it can be neglected, and those who develop this mental trait are blessed with the privilege of insight, as well as burdoned with the responsibility of philanthropy.
Rob
Lickdafoot
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11/30/2011 11:43:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 8:42:01 PM, Wnope wrote:
A "conscience" usually exists in the form of mid-brain disgust reactions. Notably, sociopaths are born without these (at least, with an extremely damaged ability to pair disgust reactions with moral situations).


are they born without these, or did their brain not develop these? there is a big difference and sociopaths likely were not tested for these when they were born.
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Wnope
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12/1/2011 12:03:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 11:43:45 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 11/30/2011 8:42:01 PM, Wnope wrote:
A "conscience" usually exists in the form of mid-brain disgust reactions. Notably, sociopaths are born without these (at least, with an extremely damaged ability to pair disgust reactions with moral situations).


are they born without these, or did their brain not develop these? there is a big difference and sociopaths likely were not tested for these when they were born.

To the extent that a human is born with a differentiated brain, a sociopath would have some inherent genetic failures similar to those found in autism (interestingly, the relevant part of the brain is in close poximity to the area where we attribute many symptoms of autism, which involves degrees of an inability to empathicly connect with other people and "see the world through their shoes."

Upbringing largely determines what behaviors a sociopath will have, not whether someone becomes a sociopath. Most sociopaths aren't violent serial killers, those tend to come from background of parents abuse and other situations.

Sociopathy is not the same as Anti-Social Personality disorder, which can't even be officially diagnosed before age 18. Many sociopaths exhibit few ASPD tendencies.

One important thing to remember, however, is that without clinical experience it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between a sociopath and someone with extreme machiavellian and narcissistic tendencies.

A machiavellian with narcissistic tendencies can be entirely the result of environmental conditions with no genetic component.
Korashk
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12/1/2011 1:46:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 11:43:45 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 11/30/2011 8:42:01 PM, Wnope wrote:
A "conscience" usually exists in the form of mid-brain disgust reactions. Notably, sociopaths are born without these (at least, with an extremely damaged ability to pair disgust reactions with moral situations).


are they born without these, or did their brain not develop these?

Does this question even matter? Regardless of whether or not they had one as a child, they don't have them as adults.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Wnope
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12/1/2011 1:37:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/1/2011 1:46:34 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 11/30/2011 11:43:45 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 11/30/2011 8:42:01 PM, Wnope wrote:
A "conscience" usually exists in the form of mid-brain disgust reactions. Notably, sociopaths are born without these (at least, with an extremely damaged ability to pair disgust reactions with moral situations).


are they born without these, or did their brain not develop these?

Does this question even matter? Regardless of whether or not they had one as a child, they don't have them as adults.

Well, if it's the case that the brain did not develop the ability to pair disgust reactions with moral situations, it means that environmental circumstances probably had a lot to do with the inability of that component to grow.

If, as I claim, they are born without them, the environment cannot degenerate the ability to a significant extent.

That said, it'd be a fallacy to talk of a "true sociopath" who is 100% disconnected from pairing emotional reactions to moral situations. However, sociopathy needs a several impaired pairing capacity in order for this to occur. It's a bit like how you can have different severity levels of autism, but after a grey area you start to go into Asperberger's.

But I do think autism is the most appropriate analogue to sociopathy as opposed to ASPD which is largely environmentally dependent.
sadolite
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12/2/2011 5:54:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 7:53:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:44:08 PM, sadolite wrote:
He is the most fowl person on the planet as far as I am concerned.

even more fowl than this guy? o.O

http://us.123rf.com...

Yep
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/3/2011 10:34:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 7:53:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:44:08 PM, sadolite wrote:
He is the most fowl person on the planet as far as I am concerned.

even more fowl than this guy? o.O

http://us.123rf.com...

No one?

Well, I lolled.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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12/4/2011 8:11:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd say everyone has a conscience unless they are a sociopath or the like. I'd define conscience as the ability to have empathy. Whether you act on the empathy... that's a different story.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
nonentity
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12/4/2011 8:20:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We all have a sense of what unfairness is and feel indignant on the receiving end of it so yes, I would argue we all have a conscience. Like someone previously mentioned, some people learn how to turn it off.
nonentity
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12/4/2011 8:22:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 7:53:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:44:08 PM, sadolite wrote:
He is the most fowl person on the planet as far as I am concerned.

even more fowl than this guy? o.O

http://us.123rf.com...

Matt, that was pretty fowl of you.
lotus_flower
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12/5/2011 7:27:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 4:37:09 PM, Indophile wrote:
Or is it dependent upon the way one is brought up?

no, everyone does not have a conscience, but it isn't dependent on the way you are brought up. Some people are just mentally unstable. the FBI states that motives for serial murder include "anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking." That seems to be something that all humans desire, some people just feel like murder is the way to get it.
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
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Oryus
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12/5/2011 2:03:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 7:27:47 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:37:09 PM, Indophile wrote:
Or is it dependent upon the way one is brought up?

no, everyone does not have a conscience, but it isn't dependent on the way you are brought up. Some people are just mentally unstable. the FBI states that motives for serial murder include "anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking." That seems to be something that all humans desire, some people just feel like murder is the way to get it.

So, just for clarity- you believe that everyone has a conscience, unless they are mentally unstable?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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12/5/2011 2:10:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 2:03:00 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 7:27:47 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:37:09 PM, Indophile wrote:
Or is it dependent upon the way one is brought up?

no, everyone does not have a conscience, but it isn't dependent on the way you are brought up. Some people are just mentally unstable. the FBI states that motives for serial murder include "anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking." That seems to be something that all humans desire, some people just feel like murder is the way to get it.

So, just for clarity- you believe that everyone has a conscience, unless they are mentally unstable?

I don't think it could be any other way. If your mind is intricate and developed, you will have a conscience. If there is a wiring problem, you may end up deficient in that category.
Rob
Wnope
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12/5/2011 3:02:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 2:03:00 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 7:27:47 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:37:09 PM, Indophile wrote:
Or is it dependent upon the way one is brought up?

no, everyone does not have a conscience, but it isn't dependent on the way you are brought up. Some people are just mentally unstable. the FBI states that motives for serial murder include "anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking." That seems to be something that all humans desire, some people just feel like murder is the way to get it.

So, just for clarity- you believe that everyone has a conscience, unless they are mentally unstable?

Well, that get's at the meaning of "mentally unstable." Perhaps "mentally ill" is a better term.

A sociopath can be extremely cold and calculating while having minimal arousement in the face of danger or punishment.

However, as we might say someone with mild autism is by definition "mentally ill" in having damaged capacity to empathize with others, a sociopath has damaged capacity to respond to situations in what would be considered a morally (if you go by certain standards of mental health), societally (other standards), or behaviorally with respect to enlightened self interest (third usual standard) appropriate manner.

Unlike people with autism, a sociopath is usually an expert at manipulating and reading people's emotional and moral reactions (caused in part by the fact that sociopaths must teach themselves how to replicate appropriate emotional responses to situations and thus are more observant). On the surface they usually come in flavors of dashing/charming or scary/violent.
Wnope
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12/5/2011 3:03:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Random side note: It's a common myth that sociopaths have higher average intelligence than the average person.

The reason this has been perpetuated is that we associate sociopaths with serial killers, and anyone who managed to get away with three separate murders and not get caught probably has a higher level of intelligence than someone who has only killed once or had a spree killing.
Oryus
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12/5/2011 3:38:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 3:02:06 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/5/2011 2:03:00 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 7:27:47 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:37:09 PM, Indophile wrote:
Or is it dependent upon the way one is brought up?

no, everyone does not have a conscience, but it isn't dependent on the way you are brought up. Some people are just mentally unstable. the FBI states that motives for serial murder include "anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking." That seems to be something that all humans desire, some people just feel like murder is the way to get it.

So, just for clarity- you believe that everyone has a conscience, unless they are mentally unstable?

Well, that get's at the meaning of "mentally unstable." Perhaps "mentally ill" is a better term.

A sociopath can be extremely cold and calculating while having minimal arousement in the face of danger or punishment.

However, as we might say someone with mild autism is by definition "mentally ill" in having damaged capacity to empathize with others, a sociopath has damaged capacity to respond to situations in what would be considered a morally (if you go by certain standards of mental health), societally (other standards), or behaviorally with respect to enlightened self interest (third usual standard) appropriate manner.

Unlike people with autism, a sociopath is usually an expert at manipulating and reading people's emotional and moral reactions (caused in part by the fact that sociopaths must teach themselves how to replicate appropriate emotional responses to situations and thus are more observant). On the surface they usually come in flavors of dashing/charming or scary/violent.

That is a better term.

I believe I know someone who is a sociopath. He is dashing/charming AND scary/violent. He is a VERY disturbing person to be around. Very unsettling and creepy in that he is so unpredictable and manipulative but my goodness if you try and point it out..... there is the charm.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Wnope
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12/5/2011 4:00:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 3:38:06 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 3:02:06 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/5/2011 2:03:00 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 7:27:47 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:37:09 PM, Indophile wrote:
Or is it dependent upon the way one is brought up?

no, everyone does not have a conscience, but it isn't dependent on the way you are brought up. Some people are just mentally unstable. the FBI states that motives for serial murder include "anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking." That seems to be something that all humans desire, some people just feel like murder is the way to get it.

So, just for clarity- you believe that everyone has a conscience, unless they are mentally unstable?

Well, that get's at the meaning of "mentally unstable." Perhaps "mentally ill" is a better term.

A sociopath can be extremely cold and calculating while having minimal arousement in the face of danger or punishment.

However, as we might say someone with mild autism is by definition "mentally ill" in having damaged capacity to empathize with others, a sociopath has damaged capacity to respond to situations in what would be considered a morally (if you go by certain standards of mental health), societally (other standards), or behaviorally with respect to enlightened self interest (third usual standard) appropriate manner.

Unlike people with autism, a sociopath is usually an expert at manipulating and reading people's emotional and moral reactions (caused in part by the fact that sociopaths must teach themselves how to replicate appropriate emotional responses to situations and thus are more observant). On the surface they usually come in flavors of dashing/charming or scary/violent.

That is a better term.

I believe I know someone who is a sociopath. He is dashing/charming AND scary/violent. He is a VERY disturbing person to be around. Very unsettling and creepy in that he is so unpredictable and manipulative but my goodness if you try and point it out..... there is the charm.

The thing to remember is without clinical experience it is almost impossible to tell the difference between a sociopath and a narcissist with machiavellian tendencies.

Unless the guy slaughters animals or something.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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12/5/2011 4:23:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 4:00:48 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/5/2011 3:38:06 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 3:02:06 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/5/2011 2:03:00 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 7:27:47 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:37:09 PM, Indophile wrote:
Or is it dependent upon the way one is brought up?

no, everyone does not have a conscience, but it isn't dependent on the way you are brought up. Some people are just mentally unstable. the FBI states that motives for serial murder include "anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking." That seems to be something that all humans desire, some people just feel like murder is the way to get it.

So, just for clarity- you believe that everyone has a conscience, unless they are mentally unstable?

Well, that get's at the meaning of "mentally unstable." Perhaps "mentally ill" is a better term.

A sociopath can be extremely cold and calculating while having minimal arousement in the face of danger or punishment.

However, as we might say someone with mild autism is by definition "mentally ill" in having damaged capacity to empathize with others, a sociopath has damaged capacity to respond to situations in what would be considered a morally (if you go by certain standards of mental health), societally (other standards), or behaviorally with respect to enlightened self interest (third usual standard) appropriate manner.

Unlike people with autism, a sociopath is usually an expert at manipulating and reading people's emotional and moral reactions (caused in part by the fact that sociopaths must teach themselves how to replicate appropriate emotional responses to situations and thus are more observant). On the surface they usually come in flavors of dashing/charming or scary/violent.

That is a better term.

I believe I know someone who is a sociopath. He is dashing/charming AND scary/violent. He is a VERY disturbing person to be around. Very unsettling and creepy in that he is so unpredictable and manipulative but my goodness if you try and point it out..... there is the charm.

The thing to remember is without clinical experience it is almost impossible to tell the difference between a sociopath and a narcissist with machiavellian tendencies.

Unless the guy slaughters animals or something.

Oh, most definitely. I would never be so arrogant as to assume I can know for sure. I'm certainly no medical professional. Either way, he is frightening man.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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12/5/2011 6:54:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 4:23:10 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 4:00:48 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/5/2011 3:38:06 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 3:02:06 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/5/2011 2:03:00 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/5/2011 7:27:47 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 11/30/2011 4:37:09 PM, Indophile wrote:
Or is it dependent upon the way one is brought up?

no, everyone does not have a conscience, but it isn't dependent on the way you are brought up. Some people are just mentally unstable. the FBI states that motives for serial murder include "anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking." That seems to be something that all humans desire, some people just feel like murder is the way to get it.

So, just for clarity- you believe that everyone has a conscience, unless they are mentally unstable?

Well, that get's at the meaning of "mentally unstable." Perhaps "mentally ill" is a better term.

A sociopath can be extremely cold and calculating while having minimal arousement in the face of danger or punishment.

However, as we might say someone with mild autism is by definition "mentally ill" in having damaged capacity to empathize with others, a sociopath has damaged capacity to respond to situations in what would be considered a morally (if you go by certain standards of mental health), societally (other standards), or behaviorally with respect to enlightened self interest (third usual standard) appropriate manner.

Unlike people with autism, a sociopath is usually an expert at manipulating and reading people's emotional and moral reactions (caused in part by the fact that sociopaths must teach themselves how to replicate appropriate emotional responses to situations and thus are more observant). On the surface they usually come in flavors of dashing/charming or scary/violent.

That is a better term.

I believe I know someone who is a sociopath. He is dashing/charming AND scary/violent. He is a VERY disturbing person to be around. Very unsettling and creepy in that he is so unpredictable and manipulative but my goodness if you try and point it out..... there is the charm.

The thing to remember is without clinical experience it is almost impossible to tell the difference between a sociopath and a narcissist with machiavellian tendencies.

Unless the guy slaughters animals or something.

Oh, most definitely. I would never be so arrogant as to assume I can know for sure. I'm certainly no medical professional. Either way, he is frightening man.

Yeah, funny story.

While I was researching sociopaths for a project, a friend of a friend visited my house (along with my friend). He immediately started giving red flags that he was sociopath (he literally did the "film the hooker while you do her" and shows it off), but I was convinced that it was my bias from reading so much about sociopaths.

The next day, we found several birds in one of our birdcages with their feet and heads cut off.

I reacted the way you ought to react to sociopaths: disengage.

Don't try to fight them, don't try to get revenge. Just do whatever you can to break contact so that your name never crosses their mind again. Unless you are capable of what sociopaths are capable of, you'll pay dearly for any negative or positive reaction you have. One makes him your enemy, the other makes you his bitch.