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A question for Rob

seraine
Posts: 734
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12/6/2011 9:30:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I understand that your moral philosophy is basically if you aren't under the influence of one of the seven sins, you are being moral. I was curious to your view on some actions. My parents are doing a lot of things that I don't like-forcing me to go to church, banning me from being friends with non-Laestadians, banning me from "worldly" things like sports and speech, but they honestly believe this is my only shot at salvation. Are they right or wrong in doing this, given that they are doing it only to try and save my soul?
Lasagna
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12/8/2011 6:34:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well, as your parents, it is not only their right but their duty to guide you in this fashion, so I don't see anything obviously immoral about it. However, you could explore the possibility that they are behaving selfishly (greed) by not respecting your philisophical autonomy, being at the age where you can obviously think for yourself. The question is: are they acting in what they consider your best interests, or their own?
Rob
seraine
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12/8/2011 9:04:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 6:34:56 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Well, as your parents, it is not only their right but their duty to guide you in this fashion, so I don't see anything obviously immoral about it. However, you could explore the possibility that they are behaving selfishly (greed) by not respecting your philisophical autonomy, being at the age where you can obviously think for yourself. The question is: are they acting in what they consider your best interests, or their own?

I know its not obviously immoral, I was just trying to use an example to convey my point, which is basically "the road to hell (can be) paved with good intentions". I am pretty sure it is mainly with my best interests at heart, but I don't like a lot of the things they are doing.
seraine
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12/8/2011 9:06:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2011 3:07:58 AM, John_Rodney wrote:
Are they instilling you with the discipline to make these decisions on your own when you are free to do so?

I'm free to not go to church and being friends with "non-believers" and join speech and stuff. The bus picks me up and I am within biking distance. Though I would have a harder time if I didn't live in the house I am currently in.
Lasagna
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12/8/2011 11:09:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 9:04:53 PM, seraine wrote:
At 12/8/2011 6:34:56 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Well, as your parents, it is not only their right but their duty to guide you in this fashion, so I don't see anything obviously immoral about it. However, you could explore the possibility that they are behaving selfishly (greed) by not respecting your philisophical autonomy, being at the age where you can obviously think for yourself. The question is: are they acting in what they consider your best interests, or their own?

I know its not obviously immoral, I was just trying to use an example to convey my point, which is basically "the road to hell (can be) paved with good intentions". I am pretty sure it is mainly with my best interests at heart, but I don't like a lot of the things they are doing.

Have you considered the possibility that they are actually saving you in some regard? Wordly things can harm you, after all.
Rob
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/9/2011 2:10:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
They are just trying to help you, doing what they think is best, don't resent them for it.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Lasagna
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12/10/2011 1:27:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 11:09:31 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Have you considered the possibility that they are actually saving you in some regard? Wordly things can harm you, after all.

They are probably trying to teach you humility. Sports and speech are worthless to someone who does them for the wrong reasons (pride).
Rob
seraine
Posts: 734
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12/11/2011 5:06:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 1:27:54 AM, Lasagna wrote:
At 12/8/2011 11:09:31 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Have you considered the possibility that they are actually saving you in some regard? Wordly things can harm you, after all.

They are probably trying to teach you humility. Sports and speech are worthless to someone who does them for the wrong reasons (pride).

It's because they belong to a church called Laestadian Lutheran which tries to avoid worldly things including Halloween and music. They say it's because we don't want to be professional athletes, so it's pointless to join school sports. It's also because she doesn't like me hanging out with non Laestadians.
seraine
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12/11/2011 5:07:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2011 11:09:31 PM, Lasagna wrote:
At 12/8/2011 9:04:53 PM, seraine wrote:
At 12/8/2011 6:34:56 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Well, as your parents, it is not only their right but their duty to guide you in this fashion, so I don't see anything obviously immoral about it. However, you could explore the possibility that they are behaving selfishly (greed) by not respecting your philisophical autonomy, being at the age where you can obviously think for yourself. The question is: are they acting in what they consider your best interests, or their own?

I know its not obviously immoral, I was just trying to use an example to convey my point, which is basically "the road to hell (can be) paved with good intentions". I am pretty sure it is mainly with my best interests at heart, but I don't like a lot of the things they are doing.

Have you considered the possibility that they are actually saving you in some regard? Wordly things can harm you, after all.

Not really, because it's mainly things like hanging out with non-Laestadians and listening to "rocky" music.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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12/11/2011 5:12:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2011 5:06:05 PM, seraine wrote:
At 12/10/2011 1:27:54 AM, Lasagna wrote:
At 12/8/2011 11:09:31 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Have you considered the possibility that they are actually saving you in some regard? Wordly things can harm you, after all.

They are probably trying to teach you humility. Sports and speech are worthless to someone who does them for the wrong reasons (pride).

It's because they belong to a church called Laestadian Lutheran which tries to avoid worldly things including Halloween and music. They say it's because we don't want to be professional athletes, so it's pointless to join school sports. It's also because she doesn't like me hanging out with non Laestadians.

It's tough being a minor. The fact is you do live under their roof and you're likely going to be stuck in this position until you're 18 and out of the house. I guess what you could do now is simply question their beliefs, ask for proof, and come prepared to defend your beliefs against their objections. This is definitely the most direct way, but it's probably the ideal one for someone in your position. Do they believe in the Judeo-Christian God? Were the several divinely instructed genocides committed in the Old Testament justified? Take a look at their authoritative documents and follow it to its logical implications.
Lasagna
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12/13/2011 3:58:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I guess what you could do now is simply question their beliefs, ask for proof, and come prepared to defend your beliefs against their objections.

Christians (and people in general) aren't typically willing to defend their beliefs. You've been hanging around DDO too long... I seriously doubt they are going to hear him out, weigh the evidence, and then soften their views if they are already that far gone.
Rob
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/13/2011 5:52:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/13/2011 3:58:18 PM, Lasagna wrote:
I guess what you could do now is simply question their beliefs, ask for proof, and come prepared to defend your beliefs against their objections.

Christians (and people in general) aren't typically willing to defend their beliefs. You've been hanging around DDO too long... I seriously doubt they are going to hear him out, weigh the evidence, and then soften their views if they are already that far gone.

Rob is pretty much spot on. The best you can do is try to use their reasoning against them. Like find bible passages that support your view. Even If you fail, they show you at least have a (fake) interest in religion, which is all they really care about.

Anyways, how religious are you parents? Do they actually believe that you will go to hell, or are just using this as an excuse to get you to do what you want?
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OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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12/13/2011 6:17:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/13/2011 3:58:18 PM, Lasagna wrote:
I guess what you could do now is simply question their beliefs, ask for proof, and come prepared to defend your beliefs against their objections.

Christians (and people in general) aren't typically willing to defend their beliefs. You've been hanging around DDO too long... I seriously doubt they are going to hear him out, weigh the evidence, and then soften their views if they are already that far gone.

That's pretty sad if it's true. My mother isn't religious but my father is moderately religious and he refuses to take me up on this topic. Since I've never been one of those "in your face" atheists we've basically just reached a truce where I don't question his beliefs and he doesn't force them on me. We did have one or two arguments when I was around 16, and I image if he went unchecked he could have become more forceful. Regardless, it never looks good to shy away from rational discussion. Seraine definitely comes out a winner if he brings up the topic and his parents refuse to engage.
OMGJustinBieber
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12/13/2011 6:20:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/13/2011 5:52:30 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/13/2011 3:58:18 PM, Lasagna wrote:
I guess what you could do now is simply question their beliefs, ask for proof, and come prepared to defend your beliefs against their objections.

Christians (and people in general) aren't typically willing to defend their beliefs. You've been hanging around DDO too long... I seriously doubt they are going to hear him out, weigh the evidence, and then soften their views if they are already that far gone.

Rob is pretty much spot on. The best you can do is try to use their reasoning against them. Like find bible passages that support your view. Even If you fail, they show you at least have a (fake) interest in religion, which is all they really care about.

Anyways, how religious are you parents? Do they actually believe that you will go to hell, or are just using this as an excuse to get you to do what you want?

Digging into their texts is a perfectly acceptable method; take their views to certain undesirable implications. You also have the standard array of atheist objections: PoE, contradictory attributes, unrealistic BoP - these are tough to handle for a theist unfamiliar with the arguments just as standard religious arguments can be tough for the untrained atheist. The less informed Seraine's parents are the less he needs to read up.
darkkermit
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12/13/2011 6:39:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/13/2011 6:17:49 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/13/2011 3:58:18 PM, Lasagna wrote:
I guess what you could do now is simply question their beliefs, ask for proof, and come prepared to defend your beliefs against their objections.

Christians (and people in general) aren't typically willing to defend their beliefs. You've been hanging around DDO too long... I seriously doubt they are going to hear him out, weigh the evidence, and then soften their views if they are already that far gone.

That's pretty sad if it's true. My mother isn't religious but my father is moderately religious and he refuses to take me up on this topic. Since I've never been one of those "in your face" atheists we've basically just reached a truce where I don't question his beliefs and he doesn't force them on me. We did have one or two arguments when I was around 16, and I image if he went unchecked he could have become more forceful. Regardless, it never looks good to shy away from rational discussion. Seraine definitely comes out a winner if he brings up the topic and his parents refuse to engage.

It's not so much about religious, but people in general. We aren't meant to be logical creatures. We are highly emotive based. Debating in the real world is rarely about logic or truth-seeking. It's about domination and conflict.

Even If Seraine makes logically arguments and "wins" the debate, all its going to do is piss his parents off. What he really needs to do to get the way he wants is to work on persuasion and conflict resolution, which is very difficult since he has the downhill advantage (his parents are authority figures). However, the last thing to do in order to get an authority figure to agree or at least get them to do something with you is to piss them off.
Open borders debate:
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OMGJustinBieber
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12/13/2011 6:59:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/13/2011 6:39:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/13/2011 6:17:49 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/13/2011 3:58:18 PM, Lasagna wrote:
I guess what you could do now is simply question their beliefs, ask for proof, and come prepared to defend your beliefs against their objections.

Christians (and people in general) aren't typically willing to defend their beliefs. You've been hanging around DDO too long... I seriously doubt they are going to hear him out, weigh the evidence, and then soften their views if they are already that far gone.

That's pretty sad if it's true. My mother isn't religious but my father is moderately religious and he refuses to take me up on this topic. Since I've never been one of those "in your face" atheists we've basically just reached a truce where I don't question his beliefs and he doesn't force them on me. We did have one or two arguments when I was around 16, and I image if he went unchecked he could have become more forceful. Regardless, it never looks good to shy away from rational discussion. Seraine definitely comes out a winner if he brings up the topic and his parents refuse to engage.

It's not so much about religious, but people in general. We aren't meant to be logical creatures. We are highly emotive based. Debating in the real world is rarely about logic or truth-seeking. It's about domination and conflict.

Even If Seraine makes logically arguments and "wins" the debate, all its going to do is piss his parents off. What he really needs to do to get the way he wants is to work on persuasion and conflict resolution, which is very difficult since he has the downhill advantage (his parents are authority figures). However, the last thing to do in order to get an authority figure to agree or at least get them to do something with you is to piss them off.

I see your point and I agree with you largely, but certainly it depends on the person to some extent. I admit if you were to thrash me on a given issue, I would never give in during that argument, but I would certainly reflect afterwards in a less emotional state and look into the issue further. I've changed my mind on a number of issues, and perhaps if Seraine's parents can understand that he can draw legitimate objections to their beliefs they'll give him some leeway (maybe I'm being too optimistic of the ultra-religious.) Regardless, I would engage just because I couldn't hold myself back if someone directly challenged me. I'm not a confrontational person but if someone's really pressing me I won't give in.

If anything, there's a chance at changing the status quo as opposed to doing nothing. I know if any of my children (theoretically, I don't have them) challenged and thrashed me in an argument I'd look at them in a completely different way. My parents don't argue with me over philosophy or religion anymore.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/13/2011 7:55:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/13/2011 6:59:48 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:

I see your point and I agree with you largely, but certainly it depends on the person to some extent.

In very rare circumstances are people logical in terms of argumentation.

I admit if you were to thrash me on a given issue, I would never give in during that argument, but I would certainly reflect afterwards in a less emotional state and look into the issue further. I've changed my mind on a number of issues, and perhaps if Seraine's parents can understand that he can draw legitimate objections to their beliefs they'll give him some leeway (maybe I'm being too optimistic of the ultra-religious.)

Your looking at this through a rationalist point of view. Religion is faith based, so its almost by nature not going to change in opinion. This isn't like changing your economic belief systems based on data you reviewed.

Also once you reach a certain age, your belief system kind of stays intact because you've already committed too much to it.

Regardless, I would engage just because I couldn't hold myself back if someone directly challenged me. I'm not a confrontational person but if someone's really pressing me I won't give in.

But engaging could just make the situation worse. Sometimes you have to work the system.


If anything, there's a chance at changing the status quo as opposed to doing nothing.

There are better strategies, but engaging head on is a very bad idea.

I know if any of my children (theoretically, I don't have them) challenged and thrashed me in an argument I'd look at them in a completely different way. My parents don't argue with me over philosophy or religion anymore.

Well, your not a parent so I don't think you can know how you will act. I'd like to think I'd be a libertarian parent and let my children make their own decisions even If I object, but I'm not sure If that will be reality.

But, I seriously doubt that parents will acknowledge that their children are smarter then them or give up any position of authority.
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OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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12/13/2011 8:52:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
But engaging could just make the situation worse. Sometimes you have to work the system.

Maybe, neither of us know Seraine's parents. How would you work the system? If you mean digging into religious texts and interpreting them then I'm on board with that.

There are better strategies, but engaging head on is a very bad idea.

I couldn't help myself here. Technically Seraine only needs to make a case for religious freedom, not atheism. On the other hand, if my parents didn't know I was an atheist I'd feel like they didn't know me.

Well, your not a parent so I don't think you can know how you will act. I'd like to think I'd be a libertarian parent and let my children make their own decisions even If I object, but I'm not sure If that will be reality.
But, I seriously doubt that parents will acknowledge that their children are smarter then them or give up any position of authority.

Maybe not at 12, but if my son/daughter is an intelligent 16 or 17 year old I couldn't rationally expect to dominate them in every area.

Also once you reach a certain age, your belief system kind of stays intact because you've already committed too much to it.

Pessimist.
seraine
Posts: 734
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12/18/2011 8:41:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/13/2011 5:52:30 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/13/2011 3:58:18 PM, Lasagna wrote:
I guess what you could do now is simply question their beliefs, ask for proof, and come prepared to defend your beliefs against their objections.

Christians (and people in general) aren't typically willing to defend their beliefs. You've been hanging around DDO too long... I seriously doubt they are going to hear him out, weigh the evidence, and then soften their views if they are already that far gone.

Rob is pretty much spot on. The best you can do is try to use their reasoning against them. Like find bible passages that support your view. Even If you fail, they show you at least have a (fake) interest in religion, which is all they really care about.

Anyways, how religious are you parents? Do they actually believe that you will go to hell, or are just using this as an excuse to get you to do what you want?

Very religious. They believe I'm going to hell.