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Why do the Innocent Suffer?

Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/10/2011 11:07:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Suffer what?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/10/2011 11:10:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Because nature is amoral and indifferent
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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12/10/2011 11:23:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
...because life isn't fair?

Ask an overly simplified question, get an overly simplified answer.

Perhaps if you elaborated on your question, you may get a better answer. Who do you think are innocent? Innocent of what? Why is suffering bad?
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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12/10/2011 11:23:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 11:10:57 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Because nature is amoral and indifferent

Bingo.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/10/2011 1:49:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Define innocent.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/10/2011 2:56:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Because all creatures are free by nature to do anything they so choose and there is no objective law to puppet the operations of life. Innocent people suffer, but so do bad people, so do people of every description in one way or another.

Life is chaos and there is no hand of rule, our intelligence as human beings gives us this propensity for order that actually does not naturally exist. If you are upset that in the random events of the world, some innocent people happen to suffer, then at least take solace with the knowledge that life is indiscriminate, so do evil people.

Natural freedom = random events

random events = statistical probability and innocent people will suffer.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dattaswami
Posts: 322
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12/11/2011 8:40:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sometimes justice appears to be – violated due to coincidence only,
You might have committed a crime, - yesterday and you have forgotten,
Today you are donating food – to beggars in a temple and police came
Today to arrest you in temple, - you link arrest with donation of food,

Both are accidentally linked but – both are not at all linked in any way.
Similarly, for past deeds forgotten, - you are punished here today and
Today you may be doing good deeds, - past sins are de-linked with
The present good deeds, time is taken – even in the state rule here.

You think that a person is very good because of his nice gentle character. There are cheats who are very soft and nice. There are very good and sincere people with rough character. A soft person may be selfish and a rough person may be sacrificial. The Lord cares only for one bad quality, which is the selfishness. He neglects all the other good qualities. A selfish person with all good qualities is like a gold cup with salt water. We pay for the material in the cup and not for the cup.

A cruel person with excellent sacrifice is like the earthern cup containing nectar. Lord Siva gave salvation to the hunter for his sacrifice but not to the selfish sacred priest. Thus we do not distinguish the real good and the real bad. The analysis of the Lord is completely practical and true and is completely different from our analysis.

at lotus feet of swami
surya

At 12/10/2011 10:57:03 AM, ianspigler wrote:
Well, why?
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/12/2011 6:34:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 10:57:03 AM, ianspigler wrote:
Well, why?

Because suffering is a function of society and subjectivism. "Pain is good, extreme pain is extremely good." "Pain is weakness leaving the body." USMC
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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12/12/2011 5:26:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 11:10:57 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Because nature is amoral and indifferent

Yeah, that^
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
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: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/25/2011 11:30:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
stochasticity,

sometimes it works in your favor, sometimes not. but it really is indifferent to ones needs or desires.

or

because a talking serpent convinced a naked under aged girl to eat from a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

it's up to you to decide which is more likely.
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
Physik
Posts: 686
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12/28/2011 3:53:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

because a talking serpent convinced a naked under aged girl to eat from a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


She wasn't entirely naked, leaves count as clothes.

The Simpsons wouldn't lie to me.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

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Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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12/30/2011 7:56:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why do the guilty suffer? Because "nature" is perfectly moral? That would be the logical conclusion based on your reasoning here...
Rob
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/30/2011 7:45:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/25/2011 11:30:58 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
stochasticity,

sometimes it works in your favor, sometimes not. but it really is indifferent to ones needs or desires.

or

because a talking serpent convinced a naked under aged girl to eat from a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

it's up to you to decide which is more likely.

For someone who claims not to be an atheist you sure do a lot of Christianity bashing...
Sisyphus67
Posts: 9
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1/31/2012 10:47:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2011 8:40:25 AM, dattaswami wrote:
Sometimes justice appears to be – violated due to coincidence only,
You might have committed a crime, - yesterday and you have forgotten,
Today you are donating food – to beggars in a temple and police came
Today to arrest you in temple, - you link arrest with donation of food,

Both are accidentally linked but – both are not at all linked in any way.
(truncated for brevity)

I disagree. There is no micro-karma. Though I can accept the postulation that there is a macro-karmic force in the universe that seeks balance (entropy) it is without factual basis to say that there is micro-karma.

You say that if a bad thing happens to a good person it is because we do not see the evil in their heart. What about the horrors this universe has visited upon children? Certainly children are innocent, or do we have to then say they must have been evil in a past life, something that even the person themselves cannot ascertain?

That is just the eastern way of saying god moves in mysterious ways. Occam's Razor suggests, rather, that the universe is random and uncaring. That must be a terrifying thought for some, and many would say that this fear is the foundation of most religions. But it feels me with a sense of overwhelming responsibility.

I have to do the right thing not because of some heavenly reward or threat of punishment, but because it is the right thing to do. Even if the universe continually rains on my parade, I can choose to do the right thing.

I don't forgive people because I know god will sort them out or because I know he universe will jump up and bite them in the rear. I recognize that might never happen. I forgive them as a gift to myself.
I don't like violence, but I am not a pacifist.
I don't like large groups of people, but I love mankind.
I am straight, but not narrow.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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1/31/2012 12:02:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 2:56:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
Because all creatures are free by nature to do anything they so choose and there is no objective law to puppet the operations of life. Innocent people suffer, but so do bad people, so do people of every description in one way or another.

Life is chaos and there is no hand of rule, our intelligence as human beings gives us this propensity for order that actually does not naturally exist. If you are upset that in the random events of the world, some innocent people happen to suffer, then at least take solace with the knowledge that life is indiscriminate, so do evil people.

Natural freedom = random events

random events = statistical probability and innocent people will suffer.

the fool say: what you are saying is impossible 00ike.. would you accept a challenge. ??
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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2/2/2012 7:22:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 10:57:03 AM, ianspigler wrote:
Well, why?

Um, who says that those who are suffering are innocent. They could be stupid morons and deserve it because they make poor life choices and put them selves into places and scenarios that are avoidable. Very very few innocent people are victims of suffering through no fault of their own. "Everything that happens to you is your fault" good or bad.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Sisyphus67
Posts: 9
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2/2/2012 9:14:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 7:22:08 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 12/10/2011 10:57:03 AM, ianspigler wrote:
Well, why?

Um, who says that those who are suffering are innocent. They could be stupid morons and deserve it because they make poor life choices and put them selves into places and scenarios that are avoidable. Very very few innocent people are victims of suffering through no fault of their own. "Everything that happens to you is your fault" good or bad.

Somebody watches Fox news...
I don't like violence, but I am not a pacifist.
I don't like large groups of people, but I love mankind.
I am straight, but not narrow.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/3/2012 11:14:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 7:22:08 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 12/10/2011 10:57:03 AM, ianspigler wrote:
Well, why?

Um, who says that those who are suffering are innocent. They could be stupid morons and deserve it because they make poor life choices and put them selves into places and scenarios that are avoidable.:

Yeah, like this stupid, moronic sinner.... Got your just desserts didn't you sinner!!!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
RandomName
Posts: 10
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2/13/2012 4:12:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's called capitalism.
"Remember, the storm is a good opportunity for the pine and the cypress to show their strength and their stability."
-Ho Chi Minh
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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2/14/2012 12:46:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
What the F@@k does fox news have to do with anything? That is the most moronic and imbecilic reply to any comment in the history of all comments and posts ever posted on DDO. "Somebody watches fox news" Duuuuh hey Tennessee!
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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2/14/2012 12:47:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/3/2012 11:14:31 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/2/2012 7:22:08 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 12/10/2011 10:57:03 AM, ianspigler wrote:
Well, why?

Um, who says that those who are suffering are innocent. They could be stupid morons and deserve it because they make poor life choices and put them selves into places and scenarios that are avoidable.:

Yeah, like this stupid, moronic sinner.... Got your just desserts didn't you sinner!!!



Can't see video post, what's it about?
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/14/2012 11:52:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/13/2012 4:46:29 PM, Ren wrote:
Suffering and guilt are irrelevant.

Why do the innocent needlessly suffer? Humans would have it no other way.

The Fool: again. Do you really thing this? lol

I am I sure at least 1 of us. would prefer this not to be the case. No? lol
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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2/14/2012 1:22:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/14/2012 11:52:36 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/13/2012 4:46:29 PM, Ren wrote:
Suffering and guilt are irrelevant.

Why do the innocent needlessly suffer? Humans would have it no other way.

The Fool: again. Do you really thing this? lol

I am I sure at least 1 of us. would prefer this not to be the case. No? lol

If humans preferred it that way, it'd be that way.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/14/2012 3:15:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/14/2012 1:22:43 PM, Ren wrote:
At 2/14/2012 11:52:36 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/13/2012 4:46:29 PM, Ren wrote:
Suffering and guilt are irrelevant.

Why do the innocent needlessly suffer? Humans would have it no other way.

The Fool: again. Do you really thing this? lol

I am I sure at least 1 of us. would prefer this not to be the case. No? lol

If humans preferred it that way, it'd be that way.

Um, who says that those who are suffering are innocent. They could be stupid morons and deserve it because they make poor life choices and put them selves into places and scenarios that are avoidable.:

Yeah, like this stupid, moronic sinner.... Got your just desserts didn't you sinner!!!

The Fool: wow! they should open up an hate forum for these guys.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/14/2012 3:16:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/13/2012 4:12:11 PM, RandomName wrote:
It's called capitalism.

Oh yeah that sums it up!! lol
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/14/2012 3:28:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/13/2012 4:12:11 PM, RandomName wrote:
It's called capitalism.

Well, capitalism is the only system that permits metaphysical innocence to exist...

But since capitalism has never been implemented anywhere on earth, it can hardly serve as an explanation.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
wingalbrave
Posts: 201
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2/14/2012 3:29:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/14/2012 3:15:45 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/14/2012 1:22:43 PM, Ren wrote:
At 2/14/2012 11:52:36 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/13/2012 4:46:29 PM, Ren wrote:
Suffering and guilt are irrelevant.

Why do the innocent needlessly suffer? Humans would have it no other way.

The Fool: again. Do you really thing this? lol

I am I sure at least 1 of us. would prefer this not to be the case. No? lol

If humans preferred it that way, it'd be that way.

Um, who says that those who are suffering are innocent. They could be stupid morons and deserve it because they make poor life choices and put them selves into places and scenarios that are avoidable.:

We design a system that allows some people to make poor choices and suffer and permits others to make poor choices and prosper. Who defines innocence? You are using arbitrary standards to justify suffering.
Yeah, like this stupid, moronic sinner.... Got your just desserts didn't you sinner!!!

The Fool: wow! they should open up an hate forum for these guys.