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Boycotts

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/28/2011 3:31:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There's a reason I put this in the Philosophy forum.

The only thing I wanted for Christmas was an iPhone (don't judge me... I love Hanging With Friends!). I didn't get it - funny story actually. But yeah, I came across this article about Apple workers in China being treated 'inhumanely, like machines' and that investigations find evidence of draconian rules and excessive overtime that have made workers so miserable that some have committed suicide...? http://www.guardian.co.uk...

Anyway, most people would probably agree that these workers deserve better conditions. However, I'm betting almost none of them (myself included, I'm sorry to say) are willing to give up owning an iPhone, iPod, iPad, Mac or any other Apple product in defense of that notion. What do you think that means or says about morality in general? What does it say about society or the human condition? Are we alone in our values or does the rest of the world sort of mimic our consumerist ideals? What should we do and why? I don't really have an opinion on this; it's just something that crossed my mind a few minutes ago. Ideas?
President of DDO
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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12/28/2011 11:34:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
That's shocking and horrifying, and yet it makes sense.

I personally don't care for Apple products. I have an iPod but the battery has been dead for over two months (indicating the last time I went to the gym lol). I owned an iPad for about a week but it was useless to me so I returned it.

I don't think people who make Apple products an integral part of their lives would be willing to give them up.

Yeah, it says something about the society we live in.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/29/2011 12:31:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If Apple chooses to produce in China then it has to deal with the consequences of doing so. Apple has a right to produce in China. The government in China passes the labor laws. If they don't like it then they can leave. If you don't like it then you can stop buying the product. However I don't believe that it will change Apple's mind either way.

Also, without Apple those people might not have any work at all. They can quite anytime.

Boycotts are silly, you should write to Apple posing this article to them and see if you get a response but they're going to say what I said above that they only choose to produce in China and the laws and customs of Chinese work environments are not their responsibility. The problem will never be solved. Realism.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/29/2011 12:37:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lol when I read the OP I was tempted to post "inb4 conservative/ libertarian defending cheap labor as ex ante beneficial to the workers involved", but Lordknukle beat me to it. XD
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/29/2011 12:40:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:37:50 AM, socialpinko wrote:
Lol when I read the OP I was tempted to post "inb4 conservative/ libertarian defending cheap labor as ex ante beneficial to the workers involved", but Lordknukle beat me to it. XD

I'm guessing that since you are an anarchist, you are for cheap labour?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/29/2011 12:40:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.

+1 for conservatism
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/29/2011 12:45:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:40:04 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:37:50 AM, socialpinko wrote:
Lol when I read the OP I was tempted to post "inb4 conservative/ libertarian defending cheap labor as ex ante beneficial to the workers involved", but Lordknukle beat me to it. XD

I'm guessing that since you are an anarchist, you are for cheap labour?

I generally agree with the choice of a company to decide the condtions on which it will hire a person and a person's choice whether or not to accept a terribly low paying job. I just usually see something like what you posted by someone in threads like this. So I thought it was funny that I predicted it.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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: I disagree.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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12/29/2011 1:05:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.

So when a North American union goes on strike demanding better conditions, should their employers just say "Well, at least you have a job"? You're telling me you will never request or expect a raise then?
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/29/2011 12:46:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 1:05:34 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.

So when a North American union goes on strike demanding better conditions, should their employers just say "Well, at least you have a job"? You're telling me you will never request or expect a raise then?

This isn't North America, it's China. Besides not everyone can have uber high paying jobs or else everything would be ungodly expensive and people would demand lower prices and people would get laid off. You can't win, there has to be cheap ready labor in order to feed the Western consumption machine.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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12/29/2011 12:54:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:46:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 12/29/2011 1:05:34 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.

So when a North American union goes on strike demanding better conditions, should their employers just say "Well, at least you have a job"? You're telling me you will never request or expect a raise then?

This isn't North America, it's China. Besides not everyone can have uber high paying jobs or else everything would be ungodly expensive and people would demand lower prices and people would get laid off. You can't win, there has to be cheap ready labor in order to feed the Western consumption machine.

I understand the wages and the labor market point about profit margins and I'd be against an artificial wage hike, but I saw a documentary a while ago on chinese labor and if I can remember correctly even bathroom breaks had to be heavily controlled. It should be apparent that these people are, for the most part, not being treated like human beings apart from the entire from the entire economic situation that they're in. I'll find examples later, but any boycott would, practically speaking, need a lot of force behind it to get something accomplished.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/29/2011 12:57:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:54:18 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:46:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 12/29/2011 1:05:34 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.

So when a North American union goes on strike demanding better conditions, should their employers just say "Well, at least you have a job"? You're telling me you will never request or expect a raise then?

This isn't North America, it's China. Besides not everyone can have uber high paying jobs or else everything would be ungodly expensive and people would demand lower prices and people would get laid off. You can't win, there has to be cheap ready labor in order to feed the Western consumption machine.

I understand the wages and the labor market point about profit margins and I'd be against an artificial wage hike, but I saw a documentary a while ago on chinese labor and if I can remember correctly even bathroom breaks had to be heavily controlled. It should be apparent that these people are, for the most part, not being treated like human beings apart from the entire from the entire economic situation that they're in. I'll find examples later, but any boycott would, practically speaking, need a lot of force behind it to get something accomplished.

This is the way China is able to make EVERYTHING for the West now days. These measures make them loads of buisness so they're not going to get rid of it. To make an effective boycott you would have to boycott everything made in China which means no Wal-Mart or Target or Apple or Nike or Rebok or well... just about everything.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/29/2011 1:46:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:57:04 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:54:18 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:46:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 12/29/2011 1:05:34 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.

So when a North American union goes on strike demanding better conditions, should their employers just say "Well, at least you have a job"? You're telling me you will never request or expect a raise then?

This isn't North America, it's China. Besides not everyone can have uber high paying jobs or else everything would be ungodly expensive and people would demand lower prices and people would get laid off. You can't win, there has to be cheap ready labor in order to feed the Western consumption machine.

I understand the wages and the labor market point about profit margins and I'd be against an artificial wage hike, but I saw a documentary a while ago on chinese labor and if I can remember correctly even bathroom breaks had to be heavily controlled. It should be apparent that these people are, for the most part, not being treated like human beings apart from the entire from the entire economic situation that they're in. I'll find examples later, but any boycott would, practically speaking, need a lot of force behind it to get something accomplished.

This is the way China is able to make EVERYTHING for the West now days. These measures make them loads of buisness so they're not going to get rid of it. To make an effective boycott you would have to boycott everything made in China which means no Wal-Mart or Target or Apple or Nike or Rebok or well... just about everything.

If we were to completely abolish and regulate the Chinese cheap labour market, our quality of life, as it is would be destroyed. The economy would collapse, manufacturing would stop, and it would be disastrous. For the benefit of everybody in the world except them, Chinese cheap labour is essential to our functioning society.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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12/29/2011 4:15:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 1:46:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:

If we were to completely abolish and regulate the Chinese cheap labour market, our quality of life, as it is would be destroyed. The economy would collapse, manufacturing would stop, and it would be disastrous. For the benefit of everybody in the world except them, Chinese cheap labour is essential to our functioning society.

Ding ding ding! That's the heart of the issue. What does that say about society when we don't care?

I don't know much about economics, but doesn't the US owe China a bunch of money because they haven't really been paying them to produce all these goods?
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/29/2011 4:29:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 3:31:40 PM, Danielle wrote:
There's a reason I put this in the Philosophy forum.

The only thing I wanted for Christmas was an iPhone (don't judge me... I love Hanging With Friends!). I didn't get it - funny story actually. But yeah, I came across this article about Apple workers in China being treated 'inhumanely, like machines' and that investigations find evidence of draconian rules and excessive overtime that have made workers so miserable that some have committed suicide...? http://www.guardian.co.uk...

Anyway, most people would probably agree that these workers deserve better conditions. However, I'm betting almost none of them (myself included, I'm sorry to say) are willing to give up owning an iPhone, iPod, iPad, Mac or any other Apple product in defense of that notion. What do you think that means or says about morality in general? What does it say about society or the human condition? Are we alone in our values or does the rest of the world sort of mimic our consumerist ideals? What should we do and why? I don't really have an opinion on this; it's just something that crossed my mind a few minutes ago. Ideas?

Crossed my mind years ago.

This is precisely what I'm talking about all the time.

It infuriates and disgusts me.

And, I don't own an iPhone, nor an iPad, pieces of junk. I'll take an HTC and a Asus Eee Slate any day.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/29/2011 6:01:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 4:15:57 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/29/2011 1:46:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:

If we were to completely abolish and regulate the Chinese cheap labour market, our quality of life, as it is would be destroyed. The economy would collapse, manufacturing would stop, and it would be disastrous. For the benefit of everybody in the world except them, Chinese cheap labour is essential to our functioning society.

Ding ding ding! That's the heart of the issue. What does that say about society when we don't care?
I don't know about you, but I'd much rather preserve Western Civilization then give a pay raise to some foreign Chinese workers.
I don't know much about economics, but doesn't the US owe China a bunch of money because they haven't really been paying them to produce all these goods?
It's not really about the goods. That comes from the private sector. The US just likes to borrow a lot of money and China has a lot of money so yeah...
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/29/2011 6:07:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 4:15:57 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/29/2011 1:46:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:

If we were to completely abolish and regulate the Chinese cheap labour market, our quality of life, as it is would be destroyed. The economy would collapse, manufacturing would stop, and it would be disastrous. For the benefit of everybody in the world except them, Chinese cheap labour is essential to our functioning society.

Ding ding ding! That's the heart of the issue. What does that say about society when we don't care?

I don't know much about economics, but doesn't the US owe China a bunch of money because they haven't really been paying them to produce all these goods?

It's a liberals job to care about everyone in the world. Personally I say China can run itself. If they want to run their workers into the ground then fine but that doesn't concern me.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/29/2011 6:22:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 6:07:52 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 12/29/2011 4:15:57 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/29/2011 1:46:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:

If we were to completely abolish and regulate the Chinese cheap labour market, our quality of life, as it is would be destroyed. The economy would collapse, manufacturing would stop, and it would be disastrous. For the benefit of everybody in the world except them, Chinese cheap labour is essential to our functioning society.

Ding ding ding! That's the heart of the issue. What does that say about society when we don't care?

I don't know much about economics, but doesn't the US owe China a bunch of money because they haven't really been paying them to produce all these goods?

It's a liberals job to care about everyone in the world. Personally I say China can run itself. If they want to run their workers into the ground then fine but that doesn't concern me.

I find these definitions kind of funny.
It's a liberal's job to care about everybody in the world.
It's a conservatives's job to rule everybody in the world.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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12/31/2011 11:45:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:46:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 12/29/2011 1:05:34 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.

So when a North American union goes on strike demanding better conditions, should their employers just say "Well, at least you have a job"? You're telling me you will never request or expect a raise then?

This isn't North America, it's China. Besides not everyone can have uber high paying jobs or else everything would be ungodly expensive and people would demand lower prices and people would get laid off. You can't win, there has to be cheap ready labor in order to feed the Western consumption machine.

Thats what they get for becoming socialists, lol but I would like to point out that they did pick the job. If they don't want to work in those conditions they should be like the latinos and come to america and work in our factories. lol
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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12/31/2011 12:02:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Everyone seemed to skip over the philosophical part of your post and go straight to talking about money(humans amirite?). To answer your question, its just who we are now. I made fun of the occupy wall street people for not giving up their laptops but if truth be told, If i found out right now that Microsoft was doing the same thing, I'd still use my Xbox. I'm paid up to 2013 and there's Netflix....Goddamn technology....
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/31/2011 12:18:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.

Thank you for not addressing a single question in my post. Very helpful.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/31/2011 12:20:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/31/2011 12:02:28 PM, MarquisX wrote:
Everyone seemed to skip over the philosophical part of your post and go straight to talking about money(humans amirite?).

Yeah, I just noticed that. That's unfortunate.

To answer your question, its just who we are now.

Why? And who's we?

I made fun of the occupy wall street people for not giving up their laptops but if truth be told, If i found out right now that Microsoft was doing the same thing, I'd still use my Xbox. I'm paid up to 2013 and there's Netflix....Goddamn technology....

Why not?
President of DDO
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/31/2011 12:53:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/31/2011 11:45:08 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:

Thats what they get for becoming socialists, lol but I would like to point out that they did pick the job. If they don't want to work in those conditions they should be like the latinos and come to america and work in our factories. lol

So you'd rather them come here so conservatives can complain that they're stealing jobs from Americans?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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12/31/2011 1:00:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/31/2011 12:53:38 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 12/31/2011 11:45:08 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:

Thats what they get for becoming socialists, lol but I would like to point out that they did pick the job. If they don't want to work in those conditions they should be like the latinos and come to america and work in our factories. lol

So you'd rather them come here so conservatives can complain that they're stealing jobs from Americans?

Yes because we are all descindants of immigrants. Let conservatives complain, they wont be heard. lol
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/31/2011 1:06:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I got the new i phone a while ago
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/31/2011 1:25:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/31/2011 12:18:42 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/29/2011 12:24:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why is everybody always on the offence on cheap labour?

Often times, in these developing countries, these kinds of cheap labour jobs are all that the citizens can receive. I agree that the conditions are perhaps sub-par, but those jobs are better than nothing. I would much rather be doing cheap labour then be out of work. So instead of attacking cheap labour, praise it. Also, it is very beneficial to the world economy. Everybody benefits from a cheap labour chain.

Thank you for not addressing a single question in my post. Very helpful.

Your question over cheap labour ultimately posed the discussion over cheap labour.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/31/2011 1:35:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It could reflect morality, or it could be the result of a recognition of your own insignificance. If a single person boycotts Apple, it wouldn't affect Apple's operations in China in any significant way, but that person would still be going without Apple products, with an end result of nothing accomplished. If a huge group of peope boycotted Apple, it might make a noticeable dent in Apple's sales that would make it rethink its production line, but that would take tons of effort to get so many people on board.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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12/31/2011 1:49:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/31/2011 12:18:16 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/28/2011 11:34:28 PM, nonentity wrote:
Yeah, it says something about the society we live in.

What?

That we value self-interest over the well-being of others. I don't believe in altruism.