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Why Argue?

ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/30/2011 7:57:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why argue?

In all my time on this website I have never once seen one side sway the other even a little bit.

The Right and the Left will always hate each other.

Atheists and Christians will always look down on each other.

Etc Etc

What's the point other than to feed the driving human need to fight?
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/30/2011 8:01:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 7:58:43 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
You know you are setting yourself up for failure with this forum, especially on this site.

I know haha but unless you pick an ambiguous or harmless topic people are going to hit hard on here, thats why we keep coming back.
DaveElectric
Posts: 107
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12/30/2011 8:01:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Atheism and religion are mega-beliefs. You cannot just make a single good argument and thing they are going to change. You have to debunk a thousand different things.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/30/2011 8:09:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 8:01:47 PM, DaveElectric wrote:
Atheism and religion are mega-beliefs. You cannot just make a single good argument and thing they are going to change. You have to debunk a thousand different things.

Exactly my point, so why do we waste our time trying?
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/30/2011 8:48:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
F-16 swayed my opinion on my DP debate so it is possible. Unlikely, but possible.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/30/2011 8:49:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 8:48:02 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
F-16 swayed my opinion on my DP debate so it is possible. Unlikely, but possible.

hmm I suppose everything is possible...
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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12/30/2011 8:51:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yep. I brought 000ike over to supporting the DP. Or at least brought him into a middle ground.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/30/2011 9:13:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 8:09:54 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 12/30/2011 8:01:47 PM, DaveElectric wrote:
Atheism and religion are mega-beliefs. You cannot just make a single good argument and thing they are going to change. You have to debunk a thousand different things.

Exactly my point, so why do we waste our time trying?

First of all, you have a very shallow understanding of debate. If you think it's just about forcing your beliefs onto others and hoping they convert then you clearly don't understand debate.

Debate leads to both sides learning. Debate is an exercise of critical thinking. Debate helps refine your own beliefs to stremgthen your position and give yourself a more solid foundation and sound justification.

Debate is also fun. Its competition. It's putting your convictions against another to see how they stand up to competing world views.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/30/2011 9:15:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And btw, people on DDO change their positions quite frequently, more than youd expect. Even concerning religious matters.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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12/30/2011 9:43:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 7:57:28 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Why argue?

In all my time on this website I have never once seen one side sway the other even a little bit.


Stay longer. It doesn't happen instantaneously.

The Right and the Left will always hate each other.


Atheists and Christians will always look down on each other.


I don't look down on atheists. In fact, I like quite a few here.

Etc Etc

What's the point other than to feed the driving human need to fight?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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12/30/2011 9:44:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In fact, I've changed my views on a lot of things since coming to this site either due to someone else's arguments here or doing research for a debate.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/30/2011 10:48:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is far from the truth for this site. I started out on this site as some sort of socialist leaning left liberal and am currently a market anarchist as a direct result of conversations with members of this site. Also religiously, I think I've changed a lot. Not necessarily my actual beliefs but my outlook on those who call themselves theists. When I joined I very mich idetified with the new atheist movement. Now I think I have a much more open view towards religion. To wrap up, I find it very hard to frequent this site for too long without changing at least one opinion.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/30/2011 10:55:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 10:48:59 PM, socialpinko wrote:
This is far from the truth for this site. I started out on this site as some sort of socialist leaning left liberal and am currently a market anarchist as a direct result of conversations with members of this site. Also religiously, I think I've changed a lot. Not necessarily my actual beliefs but my outlook on those who call themselves theists. When I joined I very mich idetified with the new atheist movement. Now I think I have a much more open view towards religion. To wrap up, I find it very hard to frequent this site for too long without changing at least one opinion.

Well good, well you've answered my question. Thanks. Look mind changed right here. lol
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/30/2011 10:59:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
no people sway, this site made me more conservative, and now I am kinda going moderate on a few issues. So arguing has swayed a few ppl.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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12/31/2011 12:34:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I disagree. I think people change their mind all the time because of arguing here. I've changed a fairly large number of my beliefs for one. People here are more open minded than the outside world so more people are going to see the flaws in their beliefs.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/1/2012 11:56:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/31/2011 7:18:21 AM, Jon1 wrote:
I didn't change my opinion :D

You've been here for one week....
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/1/2012 12:09:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 7:57:28 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Why argue?

In all my time on this website I have never once seen one side sway the other even a little bit.

The Right and the Left will always hate each other.

Atheists and Christians will always look down on each other.

Etc Etc

What's the point other than to feed the driving human need to fight?:

Persuasion is often slow. The beliefs of people synthesize over time, most often. Think of argument as planting a seed. It takes time to germinate, which takes time and circumstance. Sometimes the idea dies in the soil, sometimes it successfully grows.

Plant the seed, whether it grows to its full potential or not.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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1/1/2012 1:28:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/1/2012 11:56:48 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/31/2011 7:18:21 AM, Jon1 wrote:
I didn't change my opinion :D

You've been here for four months....

Merry Fix'dmas!
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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1/1/2012 1:31:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 9:15:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
And btw, people on DDO change their positions quite frequently, more than youd expect. Even concerning religious matters.

True. I used to be Christian, now I'm agnostic. But yeah you're not going to convince everyone or sometimes you'll convince no one. But the important part is raising questions isn't it? When you fight for something you believe in, it strengthens you're resolve. Or maybe you find out you've been wrong this whole time.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/1/2012 2:54:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/1/2012 1:28:32 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/1/2012 11:56:48 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/31/2011 7:18:21 AM, Jon1 wrote:
I didn't change my opinion :D

You've been here for four months....

Merry Fix'dmas!

And yet I've had my opinions changed.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
aubrey20042
Posts: 22
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1/1/2012 10:58:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Your initial argument is moot. I was a hardcore conservative, Christian, denier of evolution, and opponent of gay rights (largely the product of the manner in which I was raised, rather than any of my own convictions).

Here I am, an agnostic liberal who accepts and will most likely study evolution in college, and a supporter of gay rights.

So people can be swayed by the other side, and on top of that debate is an intellectually rewarding topic. We become more educated about the views of others (whether we concede to it or not is a matter of pride) as well as exercise our critical thinking skills.
"The only truth is music" - Jack Kerouac
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" - Thomas Paine
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/1/2012 11:05:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 7:57:28 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Why argue?

In all my time on this website I have never once seen one side sway the other even a little bit.

The Right and the Left will always hate each other.

Atheists and Christians will always look down on each other.

Etc Etc

What's the point other than to feed the driving human need to fight?

People do change their mind, I know I have. But there are some important points.......

1) Deeply held beliefs won't be changed over night. But as long as there is some intention of at least trying to examine your beliefs based on evidence and reason then its always possible to change.

2) Faith beliefs, and in this context I mean beliefs which are utterly immune to all reason and evidence can't be changed using reason and evidence. Its not until the person allows reason to penetrate this area that its even possible to change the belief.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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1/1/2012 11:22:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/1/2012 10:58:20 PM, aubrey20042 wrote:
Your initial argument is moot. I was a hardcore conservative, Christian, denier of evolution, and opponent of gay rights (largely the product of the manner in which I was raised, rather than any of my own convictions).

Here I am, an agnostic liberal who accepts and will most likely study evolution in college, and a supporter of gay rights.

So people can be swayed by the other side, and on top of that debate is an intellectually rewarding topic. We become more educated about the views of others (whether we concede to it or not is a matter of pride) as well as exercise our critical thinking skills.

Wow this site ruined you...
aubrey20042
Posts: 22
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1/1/2012 11:38:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/1/2012 11:22:05 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/1/2012 10:58:20 PM, aubrey20042 wrote:
Your initial argument is moot. I was a hardcore conservative, Christian, denier of evolution, and opponent of gay rights (largely the product of the manner in which I was raised, rather than any of my own convictions).

Here I am, an agnostic liberal who accepts and will most likely study evolution in college, and a supporter of gay rights.

So people can be swayed by the other side, and on top of that debate is an intellectually rewarding topic. We become more educated about the views of others (whether we concede to it or not is a matter of pride) as well as exercise our critical thinking skills.

Wow this site ruined you...

First of all, I joined this site today. I've been liberal for years, this was something that happened in the past. I thought it was worthwhile to mention as an example of how opinions can change in light of debate and reason.

Second, I don't believe I was "ruined" so much as I became acquainted with reason, intelligence, and compassion, but that's your prerogative.
"The only truth is music" - Jack Kerouac
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" - Thomas Paine
Anotheranon
Posts: 1
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1/5/2012 8:28:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Because we learn. Through argument, we (usually) educate ourselves and our peers.

Debate is, in my opinion, whether formal or not, one of the best mediums for the exchange and critical examination of thoughts and beliefs. You learn much about your views when forced to defend them, and in the process may find that you actually disagree with something you previously held true.

For example, throughout high school, I considered myself to be strongly conservative, and often ended up getting into informal debates with a few of my teachers (In retrospect, it wasn't the wisest thing, but I did learn so...yay?). I found that, looking closely at what I though I believed, I couldn't reconcile what my professed opinions were, with what I actually felt. Now, that's not to say that I lost all of the opinions I originally had, I certainly do still maintain some conservative values, but through the process of defending my views, they inevitably changed as my understanding of the topic did. While one doesn't necessarily experience a life-changing shift of view after every debate, I like to think that most of the debates I've participated in have taught me something. I consider education to be a very good reason to argue.

Well that and it's fun, providing that both participants are polite and don't take anything said as personal attacks.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/5/2012 8:49:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 7:57:28 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Why argue?

In all my time on this website I have never once seen one side sway the other even a little bit.

"Joined: 1 Month Ago"

Have you ever considered this to be a factor of the amount of time you spent here rather than some intrinsic property of humanity? In fact, I just recently altered my opinion about the Legality of Duels over on the society forum.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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1/15/2012 2:08:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree with everything people like Geo and Spinko have said. I also used to be very religious (long before coming to DDO though), but changed my mind and debating was inadvertently part of the process. When my beliefs were challenged, I wasn't able to defend them sufficiently. Of course I could be stubborn and argue until I was blue in the face, but it would be intellectually dishonest of me to not concede certain things. I think politically I have also changed a bit since joining DDO, though it's hard for me to pick out a specific issue off the top of my head. I do remember thinking anarchy was silly, but that's because I didn't really understand what it was. I also think it's interesting that most people become more capitalist the longer they are on DDO, whereas it was the opposite for me... maybe I just like to be contrary ;) ...Nah.
President of DDO