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Objectivism

ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

This is my view of people: we exist in order to better ourselves as individuals and in doing so, your looking out for your own self interest in turn benefits and builds up society.

I love Ayn Rand.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/6/2012 10:50:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you believe self-interest is your only moral goal and you also believe that welfare societies are cancerous, feeding off the hard working and giving to the lazy, shouldn't you wish to be a lazy person in a welfare society so you can rip off it without any effort?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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2/6/2012 11:45:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:50:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If you believe self-interest is your only moral goal and you also believe that welfare societies are cancerous, feeding off the hard working and giving to the lazy, shouldn't you wish to be a lazy person in a welfare society so you can rip off it without any effort?

Read productive achievement as greatest action, and absolute reason as only tool.
Your conjecture is now invalid.
I miss the old members.
Physik
Posts: 686
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2/6/2012 11:47:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I love Ayn Rand.

I am speechless.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Physik
Posts: 686
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2/7/2012 12:02:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 11:53:16 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 2/6/2012 11:47:09 PM, Physik wrote:
I love Ayn Rand.

I am speechless.

Why?

Just given CP's views on other subjects, and how they conflict drastically with Ayn Rand's.

Just found it surprising.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/7/2012 12:04:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand


To say ourself is the moral purpose is creating a false dichotomy..
when we see someone hurt, do you not get that uncomfortable feeling in your stomach, because you feel thier pain...

we might say something like we are only moral so I don't feel bad,,... therefore its all just selfishness, and this make better sense then altruism..
because we could always say that someone does something because it makes themselves feel better..
but it doesn't work the other way around; you could never say I had that ice scream to make other people feel happy.
That is a pure altrusm few depends on fundementalism to hold this view(that is belief alone)

but here is the FIX; with knowledge not just belief,

That is, the reason you feel bad in the first place only makes sense if you cared, but even though its your caring, it depend upon how you percieve the pain of others.

The reason for the sepration again and it will always be (fundemtalism)

That is it is a false dichotomy the is altruism is completly seperate from selfishness.

and so we just have to reappropriate our expression.. to this ;

1. Selfishness. (that is when you act only for yourself)
2. and se we must call selfish/atruistic, altruistic in nature

and so the problem is solved.. philosophically like I just did..
but there is not reasoning with fundementalist.. they are probably going to stick with the magic version. why? because when people commit to believe something which has not based off anything... it makes it almost impossible to unlearn.. because to counter a believe there must actually be something there to counter.. . its like we never evolved to adapted againt it...

The Fool on a bike
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/7/2012 12:06:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
let the intellectual barbarianism begin..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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2/7/2012 12:23:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

This is my view of people: we exist in order to better ourselves as individuals and in doing so, your looking out for your own self interest in turn benefits and builds up society.

I love Ayn Rand.

Are you sure you're Christian?
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/7/2012 1:12:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 12:23:31 AM, MarquisX wrote:
At 2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

This is my view of people: we exist in order to better ourselves as individuals and in doing so, your looking out for your own self interest in turn benefits and builds up society.

I love Ayn Rand.

Are you sure you're Christian?

I wouldn't go that far, but I will say that her philosophy is fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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2/7/2012 1:19:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:12:54 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:23:31 AM, MarquisX wrote:
At 2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

This is my view of people: we exist in order to better ourselves as individuals and in doing so, your looking out for your own self interest in turn benefits and builds up society.

I love Ayn Rand.

Are you sure you're Christian?

I wouldn't go that far, but I will say that her philosophy is fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.

Yeah that's what I'm saying. Living for one's self, one's own enjoyment or happiness, is the exact opposite of everything the Bible speaks of.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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2/7/2012 1:40:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

This is my view of people: we exist in order to better ourselves as individuals and in doing so, your looking out for your own self interest in turn benefits and builds up society.

I love Ayn Rand.

One may derive happiness from many sources, including helping others so this philosophy isn't that flawed.

The question is what one calls 'self interest' and whether when applied on a larger scale such a philosophy serves society or is morally righteous.

Of course, my reading on philosophy is very limited (will get to Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy soon though) , but even if utilitarianism has it's flaws it still stands to reason that everybody acting in their own self interest on a large scale wouldn't result in a great deal of happiness or result in morally correct actions.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/7/2012 2:04:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 12:04:56 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
To say ourself is the moral purpose is creating a false dichotomy..
when we see someone hurt, do you not get that uncomfortable feeling in your stomach, because you feel thier pain...
Not unless I love them, and that's an exceptional case. Normally no.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/7/2012 2:05:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:40:37 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

This is my view of people: we exist in order to better ourselves as individuals and in doing so, your looking out for your own self interest in turn benefits and builds up society.

I love Ayn Rand.

One may derive happiness from many sources, including helping others so this philosophy isn't that flawed.

The question is what one calls 'self interest' and whether when applied on a larger scale such a philosophy serves society or is morally righteous.
Society isn't a thing capable of being served.


Of course, my reading on philosophy is very limited (will get to Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy soon though) , but even if utilitarianism has it's flaws it still stands to reason that everybody acting in their own self interest on a large scale wouldn't result in a great deal of happiness or result in morally correct actions.
How so?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/7/2012 2:08:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:50:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If you believe self-interest is your only moral goal and you also believe that welfare societies are cancerous, feeding off the hard working and giving to the lazy, shouldn't you wish to be a lazy person in a welfare society so you can rip off it without any effort?

To make the whole of one's existence secondhand is hardly interest in oneself, it's interest in other people. Malicious interest, but interest nonetheless. Just because being on welfare is bad for everyone else doesn't mean it's good for you.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/7/2012 2:28:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:12:54 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:23:31 AM, MarquisX wrote:
At 2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

This is my view of people: we exist in order to better ourselves as individuals and in doing so, your looking out for your own self interest in turn benefits and builds up society.

I love Ayn Rand.

Are you sure you're Christian?

I wouldn't go that far, but I will say that her philosophy is fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.

right but I think the matter is if it is true or not. .. knowledge.. Believe+evidence or logic+believe beats just believe alone
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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2/7/2012 10:55:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

This is my view of people: we exist in order to better ourselves as individuals and in doing so, your looking out for your own self interest in turn benefits and builds up society.

I love Ayn Rand.

You're a Utilitarian, and not a Christian, philosophically speaking.

My opinion is that Rand is a narcissist.
Brain_crazy
Posts: 242
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2/7/2012 12:59:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:22:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

This is my view of people: we exist in order to better ourselves as individuals and in doing so, your looking out for your own self interest in turn benefits and builds up society.

I love Ayn Rand.

blah she's far too sure of herself. What she calls the weakness of low confidence and self-esteem, I call the strength of humility. Also some of her stances like the belief in 'Libertarian free will' are at this point just plain naive.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/7/2012 1:39:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For ConPo

Ayn Rand on reliigion:

1. "Ask youself whether the dream of heaven and greatness should be waiting for us in our graves--or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth."

2. "For centuries, the mystics of spirit had existed by running a protection racket - by making life on earth unbearable, then charging you for consolation and relief, by forbidding all the virtues that make existence possible, then riding on the shoulders of your guilt, by declaring production and joy to be sins, then collecting blackmail from the sinners. [Ayn Rand, For the New Intellectual]"

3. Playboy: Has no religion, in your estimation, ever offered anything of constructive value to human life?
Ayn Rand: Qua religion, no - in the sense of blind belief, belief unsupported by, or contrary to, the facts of reality and the conclusions of reason. Faith, as such, is extremely detrimental to human life: it is the negation of reason. But you must remember that religion is an early form of philosophy, that the first attempts to explain the universe, to give a coherent frame of reference to man's life and a code of moral values, were made by religion, before men graduated or developed enough to have philosophy. And, as philosophies, some religions have very valuable moral points. They may have a good influence or proper principles to inculcate, but in a very contradictory context and, on a very - how should I say it? - dangerous or malevolent base: on the ground of faith. [Playboy interview with Ayn Rand]

4. If you get caught at some crucial point and somebody tells you that your doctrine doesn't make sense - you're ready for him. You tell him there's something above sense. That here he must not try to think, he must feel. He must believe. Suspend reason and you can play it deuces wild. [Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead]

Also, the Bible is exactly the opposite of Rand's philosophy . . . Jesus would have never agreed with Rand.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/7/2012 6:08:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
strength of humility
Contradiction.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/7/2012 6:47:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:50:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If you believe self-interest is your only moral goal and you also believe that welfare societies are cancerous, feeding off the hard working and giving to the lazy, shouldn't you wish to be a lazy person in a welfare society so you can rip off it without any effort?:

I C wut U did thar :)
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/7/2012 6:50:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I love Ayn Rand.

Are you sure you're Christian?:

Oh, don't worry... Republican Jesus and historical Jesus have nothing to do with one another.

In the minds of religious Republicans, Jesus would have shot the poor on sight with his badass M4 carbine. :)
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/7/2012 9:27:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 6:50:28 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I love Ayn Rand.

Are you sure you're Christian?:

Oh, don't worry... Republican Jesus and historical Jesus have nothing to do with one another.

In the minds of religious Republicans, Jesus would have shot the poor on sight with his badass M4 carbine. :)

PL, this is the part where you GTFO.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/7/2012 10:54:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 11:47:09 PM, Physik wrote:
I love Ayn Rand.

I am speechless.

I love the way she wrote, I love her ideas about the individual and how society should be based around individuals.

I don't follow her atheistic views though so you can shake the shock off there.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/7/2012 10:57:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
To everyone:

Yes, I know Ayn Rand's beliefs contrast with those of the Bible.

I don't believe in EVERYTHING she preaches or stands for.

I am a full fledged Christian, I believe in PERSONAL good, INDIVIDUAL CHERITY, etc. These things fall in line with her beliefs that individuals should live anyway they want to as well as the Bible's teachings of personal responsibility.

It's mostly her view on the independent and the completely anti-socialist stance.

Don't assume I don't believe or believe certain things.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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2/7/2012 11:01:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 10:57:52 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To everyone:

Yes, I know Ayn Rand's beliefs contrast with those of the Bible.

I don't believe in EVERYTHING she preaches or stands for.

I am a full fledged Christian, I believe in PERSONAL good, INDIVIDUAL CHERITY, etc. These things fall in line with her beliefs that individuals should live anyway they want to as well as the Bible's teachings of personal responsibility.

It's mostly her view on the independent and the completely anti-socialist stance.

Don't assume I don't believe or believe certain things.

You are not a true Objectivist. Have you read any of her books? The woman is starkly against altruism. Her philosophy is not simply "do what you like as long as you don't hurt anyone" it's a slap in the face to christianity and she detests all forms of altruism.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/7/2012 11:07:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 10:57:52 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To everyone:

Yes, I know Ayn Rand's beliefs contrast with those of the Bible.

I don't believe in EVERYTHING she preaches or stands for.

I am a full fledged Christian, I believe in PERSONAL good, INDIVIDUAL CHERITY, etc. These things fall in line with her beliefs that individuals should live anyway they want to as well as the Bible's teachings of personal responsibility.

It's mostly her view on the independent and the completely anti-socialist stance.

Don't assume I don't believe or believe certain things.

Rand despises all forms of altruism, including private charity and charitable actions towards one's family. One of her characters in Atlas Shrugged (Hank Reardon), for example, is portrayed as weak and foolish for extending "charity" to his mother, wife, and brother. Individualism is not simply the basis for society in her worldview: it is the basis for life. Her main characters never procreated; they simply had sex for pleasure because she disliked the notion of familial obligations.

In addition, Rand was a hypocrite. She advocated the notion that people ought to take responsibilty for their own actions and not accept the aid of others, yet when she obtained lung cancer after she had been smoking for years, she happily drew government assistance in order to pay for her treatment.

http://boingboing.net...
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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2/7/2012 11:11:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 11:07:49 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 10:57:52 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To everyone:

Yes, I know Ayn Rand's beliefs contrast with those of the Bible.

I don't believe in EVERYTHING she preaches or stands for.

I am a full fledged Christian, I believe in PERSONAL good, INDIVIDUAL CHERITY, etc. These things fall in line with her beliefs that individuals should live anyway they want to as well as the Bible's teachings of personal responsibility.

It's mostly her view on the independent and the completely anti-socialist stance.

Don't assume I don't believe or believe certain things.

Rand despises all forms of altruism, including private charity and charitable actions towards one's family. One of her characters in Atlas Shrugged (Hank Reardon), for example, is portrayed as weak and foolish for extending "charity" to his mother, wife, and brother. Individualism is not simply the basis for society in her worldview: it is the basis for life. Her main characters never procreated; they simply had sex for pleasure because she disliked the notion of familial obligations.

In addition, Rand was a hypocrite. She advocated the notion that people ought to take responsibilty for their own actions and not accept the aid of others, yet when she obtained lung cancer after she had been smoking for years, she happily drew government assistance in order to pay for her treatment.

http://boingboing.net...

I hate to say it, but hypocrisy seems to be intrinsic to the ideology. If you're ruthlessly self-interested of course you'll accept help, and if you talk to Ragnar_Rahl (the only true objectivist on this site, imo) he seems to acknowledge this. For him, like with other objectivists, his small government, no aid philosophy immediately takes a back seat when it comes to pursuing his own self interest.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/8/2012 12:05:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
These things fall in line with her beliefs that individuals should live anyway they want to
She believes they should be free to live any way they want to. This does not mean they actually ought on a personal level engage in such whim-worship.

Rand despises all forms of altruism, including private charity and charitable actions towards one's family. One of her characters in Atlas Shrugged (Hank Reardon), for example, is portrayed as weak and foolish for extending "charity" to his mother, wife, and brother.
Because his mother, wife, and brother, were evil. It is perfectly acceptable in Objectivist ethics to give gifts that you can afford to a family that lives up to your values.

Her main characters never procreated
Mostly because she didn't and didn't really understand why someone would want to do such a thing. She never claimed it was immoral to do so, however, and there were parents to be found in the Gulch.

In addition, Rand was a hypocrite. She advocated the notion that people ought to take responsibilty for their own actions and not accept the aid of others, yet when she obtained lung cancer after she had been smoking for years, she happily drew government assistance in order to pay for her treatment.
Bold is a lie. Therefore, no basis for underlined. Objectivism says that one is immoral for advocating, voting for, or otherwise supporting the welfare state, not for getting in line with everyone else.

See for example, a quote from Rand:

"In these conditions, a scientist is morally justified in accepting government grants—so long as he opposes all forms of welfare statism. As in the case of scholarship-recipients, a scientist does not have to add self-martyrdom to the injustices he suffers."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/8/2012 12:06:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
To clarify about the gift-giving bit, this wouldn't qualify as altruism-- altruism is about sacrifice to others. Charity is moral in Objectivism if one receives greater value from giving it than one gives up.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.