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Belief as Metaphor

FREEDO
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2/14/2012 1:29:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
So I'm not going to write out a whole article that you won't read anyway, nor go too far into even supporting my case. I'd just like to introduce a new idea to you. One that, I believe, is revolutionary for psychoanalysis.

Religion, philosophy and all other beliefs are, in-fact, only metaphor. I shall elaborate somewhat further. The only thing that any of us truly believe in is our own ego, which we like to reinforce a sensation of by maintaining a value system, what Freud called "The Super-Ego". We manifest this value system through creating beliefs imposed on the other sensations within our ego, or what is called "the outside world".

But I'm not merely referring to the easily observable values that we experience being created by our full conscious. What is much more important are the values of our sub-conscious, since that makes up the greater majority of our ego. It can be difficult to recognize these values because the way in which they literally exist is not one that is organized through language as the values from our full conscious are. Many of them can, however, be crudely understood in terms of what we call sexual drives and understanding of family, which is what the majority of psychoanalytic literature has concerned itself with.

Our understood perceptions of the world are a self-imposed reality which represents our consciousness' distinguishing of itself; thinking is being, that is, "being" in the way we think being is, as discerned by the thoughts themselves, or at least my own thoughts which I transmit to you in that form, whether or not they can be understood by the same process in reverse. Commas, commas, commas, I, love, commas.

ArC g lan Et ui p WH vjep Rtr fg o Et vgpe.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/14/2012 5:18:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/14/2012 1:29:02 AM, FREEDO wrote:
So I'm not going to write out a whole article that you won't read anyway, nor go too far into even supporting my case. I'd just like to introduce a new idea to you. One that, I believe, is revolutionary for psychoanalysis.

Religion, philosophy and all other beliefs are, in-fact, only metaphor. I shall elaborate somewhat further. The only thing that any of us truly believe in is our own ego, which we like to reinforce a sensation of by maintaining a value system, what Freud called "The Super-Ego". We manifest this value system through creating beliefs imposed on the other sensations within our ego, or what is called "the outside world".

But I'm not merely referring to the easily observable values that we experience being created by our full conscious. What is much more important are the values of our sub-conscious, since that makes up the greater majority of our ego. It can be difficult to recognize these values because the way in which they literally exist is not one that is organized through language as the values from our full conscious are. Many of them can, however, be crudely understood in terms of what we call sexual drives and understanding of family, which is what the majority of psychoanalytic literature has concerned itself with.

Our understood perceptions of the world are a self-imposed reality which represents our consciousness' distinguishing of itself; thinking is being, that is, "being" in the way we think being is, as discerned by the thoughts themselves, or at least my own thoughts which I transmit to you in that form, whether or not they can be understood by the same process in reverse. Commas, commas, commas, I, love, commas.

ArC g lan Et ui p WH vjep Rtr fg o Et vgpe.

The Fool: I read the full post.

But that is easy to refute my friend.

Believe is an expecation.

In that to say I believe in X to be true.
Has the same meaning as I expect x to be true.

Expect being a feeling or inclination toward the the truth of something.

If we didn't share this feeling we would not know how beleive in a sentence coherently to others.

Not to be confused with a thought, such as I am thinking of a leprachaun in my mind. I don't have to believe that I am thinking of it because its self-evident by my thought of it. And nore do I believe in leprachauns, as in some genuine short irish fella out side my mind running about in the world, living under rainbows with pots of gold, while drinking green beer and eating lucky charms.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
FREEDO
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2/14/2012 8:38:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Either you wrote a poorly constructed argument in a different language and then ran it through google translate or...you actually know what's going on here...
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Lasagna
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2/15/2012 11:45:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe different religions actually agree at certain levels, it's just a function of where you find that agreement. For instance, take atheism and Christianity - two seemingly opposite ideologies that most would agree cannot agree on anything.

For the theist, God is an entity that lives outside the universe and gives life and meaning to us, shepherding us through the before and afterlife. To the atheist, we come from and return to nothingness. But the only real difference here is how we define that nothingness. God is obviously not a man, or anything close to anything we've ever experienced, so what the theist and the atheist see for us in the afterlife can actually be the same thing but simply described differently. IOWs, what is everything to the theist and nothing to the atheist can be precisely the same thing given our limited ability to express ourselves on the subject.
Rob
Jon1
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2/15/2012 12:46:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 11:45:58 AM, Lasagna wrote:
I believe different religions actually agree at certain levels, it's just a function of where you find that agreement. For instance, take atheism and Christianity - two seemingly opposite ideologies that most would agree cannot agree on anything.

For the theist, God is an entity that lives outside the universe and gives life and meaning to us, shepherding us through the before and afterlife. To the atheist, we come from and return to nothingness. But the only real difference here is how we define that nothingness. God is obviously not a man, or anything close to anything we've ever experienced, so what the theist and the atheist see for us in the afterlife can actually be the same thing but simply described differently. IOWs, what is everything to the theist and nothing to the atheist can be precisely the same thing given our limited ability to express ourselves on the subject.

Are you serious?
Lasagna
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2/15/2012 2:28:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 12:46:42 PM, Jon1 wrote:
At 2/15/2012 11:45:58 AM, Lasagna wrote:
I believe different religions actually agree at certain levels, it's just a function of where you find that agreement. For instance, take atheism and Christianity - two seemingly opposite ideologies that most would agree cannot agree on anything.

For the theist, God is an entity that lives outside the universe and gives life and meaning to us, shepherding us through the before and afterlife. To the atheist, we come from and return to nothingness. But the only real difference here is how we define that nothingness. God is obviously not a man, or anything close to anything we've ever experienced, so what the theist and the atheist see for us in the afterlife can actually be the same thing but simply described differently. IOWs, what is everything to the theist and nothing to the atheist can be precisely the same thing given our limited ability to express ourselves on the subject.

Are you serious?

What do I look like? Freedo? Of course I'm serious! I've had conversations with theists and my conclusion is that there is no difference. Look at it this way: who is God's God? If God doesn't have a God above him, then does that make God an atheist? And what does the atheist think about the afterlife? It makes absolutely no sense that we don't exist for eternity, pop up for a few years, then cease to exist for eternity. There has to be some essence from which we return, some pool of consciousness or something. It may not be white clouds with angels in robes and Jesu playing the guitar, but there has to be something we don't know about and some label this as "heaven" and some don't.
Rob
Volkov
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2/15/2012 3:39:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 2:28:32 PM, Lasagna wrote:
And what does the atheist think about the afterlife? It makes absolutely no sense that we don't exist for eternity, pop up for a few years, then cease to exist for eternity. There has to be some essence from which we return, some pool of consciousness or something.

Atheists absolutely don't require this sort of belief, whatsoever. It doesn't make any more sense than Jesus playing guitar in heaven. What makes the most logical sense is that we live, we die, ipso facto.
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/15/2012 5:43:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Human beings think in metaphor, our language is metaphor.

The greatest understanding is the realization that we live in the tower of babel.

Yes, belief is a metaphor, whether the believer believes this or not. Of course, the metaphor is itself a metaphor, and if you want to get technical, that could be very confounding.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/15/2012 6:15:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 5:43:39 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Human beings think in metaphor, our language is metaphor.

The greatest understanding is the realization that we live in the tower of babel.

Yes, belief is a metaphor, whether the believer believes this or not. Of course, the metaphor is itself a metaphor, and if you want to get technical, that could be very confounding.

The Fool: you are putting you self into a infinite regresss. so you expained nothing.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/15/2012 6:18:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 6:15:12 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/15/2012 5:43:39 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Human beings think in metaphor, our language is metaphor.

The greatest understanding is the realization that we live in the tower of babel.

Yes, belief is a metaphor, whether the believer believes this or not. Of course, the metaphor is itself a metaphor, and if you want to get technical, that could be very confounding.

The Fool: you are putting you self into a infinite regresss. so you expained nothing.

We use language (physical symbols) to communicate our thoughts and ideas. Even if I am talking about the president I do so from the idea in my memory for what I know to the status of the president. That is every word presupposes and Idea.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/15/2012 6:23:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 6:18:58 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/15/2012 6:15:12 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/15/2012 5:43:39 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Human beings think in metaphor, our language is metaphor.

The greatest understanding is the realization that we live in the tower of babel.

Yes, belief is a metaphor, whether the believer believes this or not. Of course, the metaphor is itself a metaphor, and if you want to get technical, that could be very confounding.

The Fool: you are putting you self into a infinite regresss. so you expained nothing.

We use language (physical symbols) to communicate our thoughts and ideas. Even if I am talking about the president I do so from the idea in my memory for what I know to the status of the president. That is every word presupposes and Idea.

The Fool: Where as metaphor is and articulation which we use to express a connotavie meaning of another word.

E.g. I am a 'slave' to my car. (is not like realy slavery)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/15/2012 7:20:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Even if you believe that your thoughts are not metaphorical, you'd be a fool...er...uh... possibly on the hill.... to say that a great deal of information isn't lost in communication through language.

One of the big problems with human beings, is that they communicate with the assumption that we all have the same understanding of language. We don't, and even if a dictionary lays out the definitions, this doesn't mean you should expect someone to have that knowledge, or even an understanding of the words used to construct a definition.

No one truly understands another. Knowing this can make you very lonely if you let it.. but knowing this can also help you and liberate you.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 7:20:35 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Even if you believe that your thoughts are not metaphorical, you'd be a fool...er...uh... possibly on the hill.... to say that a great deal of information isn't lost in communication through language.

The Fool: Dude this is crazy. Your thoughs are your thought. it doesnt get any more rock bottom, then that. You need the idea of a metaphor to express a metaphore but its not the other way around. THe buck stops there. cogito ergo sum. my thoughts are mine!!!! and only I have direct access, I could never be wrong about that. We coudn't even use the a word properly in a sentence if we didn't grasp the ideas behind it in the way it is used.
It we did share the same basic organization of mind. We could never even learn language at all. Many world are anaylitic, like the number one, Or a triangle tri ange. contradicion. contra diction. or circe there no other possible configuration is could have.
We may be off on some uses but it is extreme to say all of it is. Or what you are saying would make sense. :9 its the connotative difinition what relative.
I don't think you realize how bold of an assertion is to say we and all could NEVER know we are saying. This mean you would have to check ALL MINDS! in the universe. Good luck with that endeavour I will catch you on the other HILL.

No one truly understands another. Knowing this can make you very lonely if you let it.. but knowing this can also help you and liberate you.

The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
FREEDO
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2/16/2012 12:37:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!

Also, nothing exists.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/16/2012 1:11:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 12:37:52 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!

Also, nothing exists.

cogito ergo sum.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/16/2012 1:14:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 12:37:52 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!

Also, nothing exists.

The Fool: seconldy can't be true and said at the same time.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
FREEDO
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2/16/2012 1:37:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 1:14:41 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/16/2012 12:37:52 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!

Also, nothing exists.

The Fool: seconldy can't be true and said at the same time.

I never said it.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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2/16/2012 1:38:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 1:11:06 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/16/2012 12:37:52 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!

Also, nothing exists.

cogito ergo sum.

circulus in probando
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/16/2012 10:11:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't really see what is so extreme about it. Thoughts themselves are communicated on a symbolic and virtual level. This is how we operate cognitively.

Your thoughts could be said to just be an interpretation of electrical and chemical data.

When you add communication from your imperfect collective of matter to another, of course data is going to be lost.. and it is.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/16/2012 1:52:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 1:38:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2012 1:11:06 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/16/2012 12:37:52 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!

Also, nothing exists.

cogito ergo sum.

circulus in probando

Thought=consciousness
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/16/2012 2:23:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 10:11:48 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I don't really see what is so extreme about it. Thoughts themselves are communicated on a symbolic and virtual level. This is how we operate cognitively.

Your thoughts could be said to just be an interpretation of electrical and chemical data.

When you add communication from your imperfect collective of matter to another, of course data is going to be lost.. and it is.

Lets rewind that back.

The Fool: Your thoughs are your thought. it doesnt get any more rock bottom, then that. THe buck stops there. cogito ergo sum. my thoughts are mine!!!! and only I have direct access, I could never be wrong about that. We coudn't even use the a word properly in a sentence if we didn't grasp the ideas behind it in the way it is used.

CosmicAlfonzo: thoughs themselves are communicated on a symbolic and virtual level.

The Fool: oh you mean non-metaphorical thoughts, are commucated with Physical symbols, but where the hell aware are you getting virtual from. Why through this extra predicate.

The Fool: If we didnt share the same basic organization of mind. Everybody actions speech would appear random, but there is a similar syntax in the organization of words. There are elementry words, a childs learns dada, momma, me, these word become known caliberating the sound and its relation. CosmicAlfonzo: Your thoughts could be said to just be an interpretation of electrical and chemical data.

The Fool: No you need your though to interprete what the hell is elecrical and chemical data means in the first place, or you could know that information. Again other way around. you may learn about that but mind is the necessary condition to expereince the natural world or you couldn't know it in the first place. We can the phyiscal world through our conscious but we cannot see consiousness though the phyiscal world.

CosmicAlfonzo: When you add communication from your imperfect collective of matter to another, of course data is going to be lost.. and it is.

The Fool: We don't all keep adding to and imperfect collection, even when we are off we are self correcting over time! we improve in accuracy through caliberation with others. We couldn't even be having this conversation is otherwise.

.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/16/2012 3:24:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 10:11:48 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

Lets rewind that back. v 1.1

The Fool: Your thoughs are your thought. it doesnt get any more rock bottom, then that. THe buck stops there. cogito ergo sum. my thoughts are mine!!!! and only I have direct access, I could never be wrong about that. We coudn't even use the a word properly in a sentence if we didn't grasp the ideas behind it in the way it is used.

CosmicAlfonzo: thoughs themselves are communicated on a symbolic and virtual level.

The Fool: oh you mean non-metaphorical thoughts, are commucated with Physical symbols, but where the hell are you getting virtual from. Why through this extra predicate. Give it the razor!

The Fool: If we didnt share the same basic organization of mind. Everybody actions and speech would appear random, but there is a similar syntax in the organization of words. There are elementry words a childs learns dada, momma, me, these word become known caliberating the sound and its relation.

CosmicAlfonzo: Your thoughts could be said to just be an interpretation of electrical and chemical data.

The Fool: No you need your thought to interprete what the hell is elecrical and chemical data means in the first place, or you could not know that information. Again other way around the mind is the necessary condition to expereince the natural world or you couldn't know it in the first place. But we cannot see consiousness though the phyiscal world.

CosmicAlfonzo: When you add communication from your imperfect collective of matter to another, of course data is going to be lost.. and it is.

The Fool: We don't all keep adding to an imperfect collection, even when we are off we are self correcting over time! We improve in accuracy through caliberation in how we relate the language. We couldn't even be having this conversation is otherwise.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/16/2012 7:04:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You have a very ego centric way of looking at the issue. I'm looking at it from the Cosmic level, not the human level.

I don't need to add the razor to what I'm saying any more than a botanist needs to administer the razor to their understanding of a tree once it gets divided down to the cellular level.

A tree exists as your thoughts do. They are as real as the world contained in a videogame.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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2/16/2012 7:11:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 7:04:57 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
You have a very ego centric way of looking at the issue. I'm looking at it from the Cosmic level, not the human level.

I don't need to add the razor to what I'm saying any more than a botanist needs to administer the razor to their understanding of a tree once it gets divided down to the cellular level.

A tree exists as your thoughts do. They are as real as the world contained in a videogame.

The Fool: Well being human may be unfortunate but when you are able to jump out side your actual humanmind. Then you start actually making a point. Demonstrate how you are out of you mind!. And then we should listen... or should we?? hmmmmmmmmmm
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/16/2012 8:37:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'd rather be questioned than blindly followed. What I say is true, but if you don't understand what I'm saying, parroting it will do more to perpetuate misunderstanding.

It is unavoidable, as human beings are not adequately wired for the communication of cosmic truth. Even those who speak the same language speak different languages.

Humans are also pretty much the same when you get to the roots. We are also all different, but when it comes to the operating system, it's basically the same. A lot of minds are infected with malware of all types, and many programs have inefficient junk coding. Humans are hardwired for delusion and madness, because they way we perceive and judge the world is NOT how the world is. This internal conflict is the source of many of our problems.

What are your words but metaphor for concepts? What are these concepts but metaphor for your thoughts? What are your thoughts but metaphor for the input your hardware streams in? The input your hardware streams in is also a distorted and imperfect intake of actuality.

There is a long chain of translations going on in your own head before words even are communicated through your mouth or fingertips.

Your thoughts could be considered all yours, but you don't really even exist. You are a clump in the cosmic stream, a collection of interacting forces that are tied together and aren't even truly separate. They are linked by causality.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/17/2012 12:28:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 1:52:08 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/16/2012 1:38:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2012 1:11:06 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/16/2012 12:37:52 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!

Also, nothing exists.

cogito ergo sum.

circulus in probando

Thought=consciousness

All things are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, and false and meaningless in some sense.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/17/2012 2:43:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 8:37:01 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I'd rather be questioned than blindly followed. What I say is true, but if you don't understand what I'm saying, parroting it will do more to perpetuate misunderstanding.

The Fool: there is a big difference between us in this engagement, that is I am giving arguments. That is a claim with supporting premises. And you are just making bold assumption. Note the asymmetry pls!

"one bold assumption is as good as the next" Hegel

Cosmo: It is unavoidable, as human beings are not adequately wired for the communication of cosmic truth. Even those who speak the same language speak different languages.

The Fool: Sure, but with what justification do you claim this? The secondly claim is obviously a contradiction. You must explain in what sense the language is the same, and how in another sense it is different. If it is in the very same sense, then it is non-sense.

Cosmo: Humans are also pretty much the same when you get to the roots. We are also all(A&~A) different, but when it comes to the operating system, it's basically the same.

The Fool: I these statements but not the obvious contradictory part. I assume you mean we are the same in some way yet different in others, if you really mean in all, then you not making sense.

Cosmo: A lot of minds are infected with malware of all types, and many programs have inefficient junk coding.

The Fool: which is exactly what I mean by Zombies or "mushmind', like there mind as been infected.

Cosmo: Humans are hardwired for delusion and madness, because the way we perceive and judge the world is NOT how the world is. This internal conflict is the source of many of our problems.

The Fool: I hope you will eventually come to the realization that to say we always judge what is not the world, depends on you being able to recognize the difference to even make such a claim. So you refute yourself every time you say it, this if justification for me to claim you have no idea then of what you are talking about when you speak of that cosmic babble. Fair? But I would rather not have to. you need to show in which way. For the mind is integrated with the world, or nothing could effect it but it is clearly effected. e.g. drugs. Etc. So this my premises to SUPPORT my conclusion, which is rejection of dualism.

The fool :You have a lot of questions which is great because I have a lot of answers ask away?

Cosmo: What are your words but metaphor for concepts?

The fool: Firstly if a word is a metaphor, metaphor is a metaphor with of course is a metaphor, which again is a metaphor until infinity, could never be reached; there for a metaphor could never be an explanation for what we are taking about. ( that is a checkmate a FATAL BLOW on the metaphor explanation so stop talking about it.) Unless you can provide a logical proof that is over with.

The Fool: my words are words, a metaphor is one in many physical symbols, that is a language is a set of organized physical symbol to express out ideas (can you argue against this or not?)

Cosmo: What are these concepts but metaphor for your thoughts?
The Fool: The concepts are ideas. Where do you think concepts to be? Floating around in mid –air.

Cosmo: What are your thoughts but metaphor for the input your hardware streams in? T

The Fool: The problem is that even the notion of hardware(brain) are themselves at set of organized ideas. That we label physical, in relation to a category of information derived from our senses.

Cosmo: Your thoughts could be considered all yours, but you don't really even exist.

The Fool: My thoughts are mind be the idea of MY THOUGHT, and my existence follows by any perception at all. That is I am certain that mind exist, I think you are confusing, The Imagination; part of the mind where we construct concepts, and it is normal to consider them non-existence in a correspondence theory of truth which existence depends on empirical verification for existence. The fact that I Think, feel and I perceive or understand or remember or belief, is not part of the Imagination, they are bold facts of the matter when I experience them.

Cosmo: You are a clump in the cosmic stream, a collection of interacting forces that are tied together and aren't even truly separate. They are linked by causality

The Fool: Have you been abducted by aliens at one point? Take me too your leader!!!

The Fool: "I think there for I am!!" Cogito ergo sum. Not even a GOD aka "evil demon" could change that. As long as there is perception there is consciousness (for it is synonymous), and consciousness entails an awareness of something. Thus it follows prima facie that three things must be true. There must be an entity (A) something which it can be distinguished from, (B)which only makes sense in a context (C) that is the context which (A&B) are in, and so on and so forth which appears to be infinity.

e.g. If (((a&b)->C)->(A&B)&C))->D and so forth.

But the real first principle will be invisible for there is no distinguishable entity in which it can be recognized from, but it follows by recognition alone, That is the is THE OBSERVER, THE "I" That perceives. That is why when you look inside at the observer, you will never see it. Why? Because the "I" cannot see IT SELF the "I", in the same sense that an EYE can never directly see ITSELF, for it always looks outward!!

e.g. Try it out!!. Try and see your left eye, directly with your left Eye. (directly without a mirror) For the original does not have a reflection.

And I hope you realize that I only use language to communicate, but none of this depends on language, no more than a baby can't speak, but is conscious, regardless of any notion of cosmic funk, it will always be true that I the observer exist as long as any perception does. That is any sensation as all, including imaginary, for it must exist to imagine in the first place.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/17/2012 2:44:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 12:28:54 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2012 1:52:08 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/16/2012 1:38:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2012 1:11:06 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/16/2012 12:37:52 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!

Also, nothing exists.

cogito ergo sum.

circulus in probando

Thought=consciousness

All things are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, and false and meaningless in some sense.

But to get to the bottom of it, we must know in what sense in particular are you referring to?
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/17/2012 4:28:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 2:44:44 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:28:54 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2012 1:52:08 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/16/2012 1:38:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2012 1:11:06 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 2/16/2012 12:37:52 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:42:48 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: This is way to extreme!!!!!!

Also, nothing exists.

cogito ergo sum.

circulus in probando

Thought=consciousness

All things are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, and false and meaningless in some sense.

But to get to the bottom of it, we must know in what sense in particular are you referring to?

Why on Earth would we need to get to the bottom of it? The view is so much nicer from the top.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord