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Objective moral truths

Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/25/2012 2:24:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

...Unless they don't exist.

Relative = Vary Situation to situation
Subjective = Based on human's views (or cultural relativism)
Absolute = Never varies.
Objective = based on something outside human opinion (i.e. it's outside human opinion that there are two sides to an English penny; if you disagree, then you're wrong).

Objective and Subjective =/= Absolute and Relative.

Methinks you learned from W.L.Craig?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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2/25/2012 2:25:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

Objective truth =/= absolute truth.

You can still hold objective moral truth and believe in those exceptions.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/25/2012 2:55:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 2:25:08 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

Objective truth =/= absolute truth.

You can still hold objective moral truth and believe in those exceptions.

...I thought I said that.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/25/2012 3:19:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 2:25:08 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

Objective truth =/= absolute truth.

You can still hold objective moral truth and believe in those exceptions.

"Killing is immoral" would be a subjective moral claim. I have met people who say they wouldn't shoot someone to save 5 lives because they could never kill anyone, it's not in their moral code. I have met people who say saving 5 lives logically makes more sense than just saving 1 if they are the only too options and it's in their moral code as far as human flourishing to save as many lives as possible.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/25/2012 6:19:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

Not quite.

An objective moral truth may apply in all situations. For instance, say that it turns out "do minimal harm" is an objective moral truth. It can be applied without exception.

An objective truth might also only cover a sub-set of cases like "thou shalt not kill when circumstances x,y, and z hold."

Now, let's say that you develop moral system A which can account for any circumstance possible and gives you a definitive answer to each question of morality. It is not necessarily an objective moral system. It is just internally consistent and has appeal through thoroughness.

To say morality is objective is to say that for a given moral statement x, there is some process by which we can ascertain that "not x" is false.

To say morality is subjective is to say that while moral statement x may be true for you, someone else might say x is false, and we have no epistemological high-ground to say otherwise. You could also say that moral statement x can not be said to be either true or false without some previous moral presupposition (normative propositions have no inherent truth values).

The is-ought problem specifies why aiming for objective morality is problematic, but aiming for internally consistent/appealing morality is not.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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2/25/2012 10:09:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

The validity of objective moral truths is not compromised by the subjective application of personal behavior.

In physical terms (since you brought up chemistry), laws are present that dictate how matter interacts. However, the nature of that interaction depends on the forces applied and exchanged. In other words, it is a physical law that the molecules in an object will rearrange with the temperature applied to it. For example, when you freeze something, it will arrange in a complex geometric structure that is more spaced out, calmer (less energized), and more difficult to penetrate.

This means that you must make everything at the most, 32-34 degrees Fahrenheit, right?

No. This means that everything must be at precisely the given temperature that causes it to freeze, which is different for every type of matter. 32-34 degrees Fahrenheit (and 0 degrees Celsius) is only the freezing point of water. Everything that you encounter that is a solid, from a table to glass to a television, is comprised of substances that are all essentially frozen.

So, it's okay to freeze things at temperatures greater than 32 degrees F, and if you didn't know that, then you simply didn't understand how matter works.

Well, there are situations in which the same basic rules apply (action and reaction; emotional conveyance; insult and flattery; etc.), although you may achieve results in different, sometimes seemingly divergent, ways.

So, if you're in a situation where it is most reasonable to steal, although I can't think of such a situation (and question whether it exists), for example, then stealing would be the most moral thing to do.

Truth.
sadolite
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2/26/2012 9:20:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

Objective morals don't exist only in the minds of other people who it isn't happening to.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/27/2012 1:02:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

No
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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3/2/2012 2:35:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 2:25:08 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

Objective truth =/= absolute truth.

You can still hold objective moral truth and believe in those exceptions.

The Fool: you can believe in anything you want. but where its true or not.???

The Fool: Objective truth = absolute truth.. all thing that exist aka the universe, is abolutly true.
what is objective is that which is true but not dependent upon what we think.
which is simply all things that are absolutly true.

What we consider true is often subjective but what is actually true is irregardless of our subject view point. That is subjectivly it selfs must exist in the universe for ther even to be subjective views. We tend to forget that when we say viewpoint are relative, could only hold for youself, because for it to be true for others goes beyond you subjective view point. It is a claim of absolute truth. For is also must be absolutly true that relativity is true first.
subjectivity is in the set of relativity. A simplier argument is that for subjectivity to be true we there must objectivly be other people first. Or there is nothing to distinquish it from.

any challengers? do your best. ;)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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3/2/2012 2:37:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 1:02:46 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

No
THe fool: No is not an argument, you need to show why is it no.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Kleptin
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3/16/2012 1:31:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

Morality operates in a way similar to natural selection and evolution. It is neither objective nor subjective, and is constantly in flux. Morality develops as a collection of decisions and behaviors of a society. No decision has moral weight for an individual alone, only for a society.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/16/2012 2:18:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/16/2012 1:31:06 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

Morality operates in a way similar to natural selection and evolution. It is neither objective nor subjective, and is constantly in flux. Morality develops as a collection of decisions and behaviors of a society. No decision has moral weight for an individual alone, only for a society.

Morality doesn't operate. It a concept we've developed to explain interactions that relate to truth, formality, meaning, and ideals.
Kleptin
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3/16/2012 2:26:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/16/2012 2:18:19 PM, Ren wrote:
Morality doesn't operate. It a concept we've developed to explain interactions that relate to truth, formality, meaning, and ideals.

The interactions you mention represent a system of patterns, and when I say "operate", I am referring to that system.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/16/2012 5:44:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/16/2012 2:26:00 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/16/2012 2:18:19 PM, Ren wrote:
Morality doesn't operate. It a concept we've developed to explain interactions that relate to truth, formality, meaning, and ideals.

The interactions you mention represent a system of patterns, and when I say "operate", I am referring to that system.

But, as I've indicated before, that makes your assertion less an argument about objectivity and more an argument about definitions.

In other words, it's purely semantic.

It appears to me as though you're replacing "objectivity in human interactions" with "patterns of a system." One way or another, there is something present that humanity cumulatively acknowledges, considers, and acts upon. That something leads to distinctions between correct, right, true, fact, etc. and their adverses. That something is not contingent on any human input whatsoever, effectively rendering it objective.
Kleptin
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3/16/2012 6:42:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/16/2012 5:44:36 PM, Ren wrote:
At 3/16/2012 2:26:00 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/16/2012 2:18:19 PM, Ren wrote:
Morality doesn't operate. It a concept we've developed to explain interactions that relate to truth, formality, meaning, and ideals.

The interactions you mention represent a system of patterns, and when I say "operate", I am referring to that system.

But, as I've indicated before, that makes your assertion less an argument about objectivity and more an argument about definitions.

In other words, it's purely semantic.

It appears to me as though you're replacing "objectivity in human interactions" with "patterns of a system." One way or another, there is something present that humanity cumulatively acknowledges, considers, and acts upon. That something leads to distinctions between correct, right, true, fact, etc. and their adverses. That something is not contingent on any human input whatsoever, effectively rendering it objective.

I'm just going to start off saying that you have a really bad habit of interrupting exchanges between me and other people in an extremely derailing and confusing way. Also, it really doesn't have to be an issue of semantics. I personally feel that you just make it into one.

That being said, I'm going to completely ignore everything you have said to me up to this point and will redirect our exchange in a way that makes sense.

First, I'm going to say that when I say "Morality", I mean "All that junk related to us calling stuff good and evil".

When I say "Operate" I mean "this is the way this thing works"

When I say "Objective morality", I mean "Stuff is definitely good or evil depending on a thing that has nothing to do with what people think. It never changes and is always the same".

Now, I'll set forth my actual point: Morality is not OBJECTIVE in that it is always in flux. Morality is not SUBJECTIVE in that there are determinants of morality that stem from our biology.

Okay, now here's the part where you tell me what you think *BEFORE* you write criticisms of what I just said.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Utopian
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3/17/2012 12:16:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/16/2012 6:42:14 PM, Kleptin wrote:

Now, I'll set forth my actual point: Morality is not OBJECTIVE in that it is always in flux. Morality is not SUBJECTIVE in that there are determinants of morality that stem from our biology.

The fact that there are determinants of morality that stem from our biology does not mean that morality is not subjective- it simply makes biology one of the many factors in play that determine the subjective moral judgements.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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3/17/2012 12:44:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal .... Doesn't this mean that objective morals don't exist?

Moral sufficiency for any apparent evil action is itself ontological and objective.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/18/2012 2:30:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:52:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If objective moral truths exist, then this indicates no exceptions to certain moral values. For example, it's objectively true that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen which means that there can be no exceptions. Since there are situations where it is ok to lie, kill, cheat, and steal ....
It is either true or not true that there are situations when it is okay to lie kill cheat and steal.
If it is true, then it is true objectively, and that truth pertains to morality. It merely means you and whoever stated "Don't lie kill cheat or steal" disagree on what that truth is.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.