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Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/26/2012 6:26:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can God be irrational, while being rationally provable?

That is, can God be within the constraints of rationality while being able to do the irrational (make a square circle)?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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2/26/2012 6:30:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No. If God can be irrational, then that means we cannot trust our minds to describe him in accurate way, since we only have the capacity to understand logic. This means that God does not need to follow our perceptions of rationality to exist, and therefore means it's impossible to prove or disprove his existence. It's like something 2 dimensional attempting to prove the existence of a 3rd dimension.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
JrRepublican
Posts: 44
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3/19/2012 2:36:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Fascinating. First, since the conception of God is so far beyond human understanding/comprehension/experience, it's impossible for us to prove/disprove his existence rationally. We simply don't have the knowledge. To use your example, a circle is simply something our experience and conception has created -- in other words our finite minds have decided that a 'circle' be called a circle. God is not bound to the same logic that we have, else he would not be higher than we. Essentially, we cannot hope to use our finite minds to describe or comprehend (and certainly never limit) an infinite being. We can believe or not, but we cannot constrain or prove.
Jon1
Posts: 314
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3/19/2012 3:50:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/26/2012 6:26:08 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Can God be irrational, while being rationally provable?

That is, can God be within the constraints of rationality while being able to do the irrational (make a square circle)?

Can a God who believes 2+2=4 believe that 2+2=24? Can you?
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/19/2012 3:53:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/26/2012 6:26:08 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Can God be irrational, while being rationally provable?

Much like a nagging woman slapping you in the face for no reason, yes.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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3/19/2012 8:02:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think its a false dichotomy anyways.
I think were just more or less logically consistent.

The more consistent the more rational.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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3/19/2012 8:03:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If we are Natural and God is supernatural I think any claim to such knowledge begs the question.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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3/19/2012 8:08:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 2:36:52 PM, JrRepublican wrote:
Fascinating. First, since the conception of God is so far beyond human understanding/comprehension/experience, it's impossible for us to prove/disprove his existence rationally.

The Fool: Begging the question lol. I mean even to say what he is begs the question.

We simply don't have the knowledge. To use your example, a circle is simply something our experience and conception has created -- in other words our finite minds have decided that a 'circle' be called a circle.

The Fool: A a circle is infinity circular. How do you know you mind is finite?

God is not bound to the same logic that we have, else he would not be higher than we.

The Fool: what is this other logic you speak of? if you don;t know it.. what are talking about.?

Essentially, we cannot hope to use our finite minds to describe or comprehend (and certainly never limit) an infinite being.

The Fool: if you don;t know infinite how could you know god is infinite. ?

We can believe or not, but we cannot constrain or prove.

The Fool: Well maybe God will show himself to us?

Random refutations from the hill!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/19/2012 9:59:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/26/2012 6:30:34 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. If God can be irrational, then that means we cannot trust our minds to describe him in accurate way, since we only have the capacity to understand logic. This means that God does not need to follow our perceptions of rationality to exist, and therefore means it's impossible to prove or disprove his existence. It's like something 2 dimensional attempting to prove the existence of a 3rd dimension.

What you are talking about is what science calls an unfalsifiable claim. If I said there was an invisible being beside me who could not interact with physical reality or have physical reality interact with it, you couldn't prove me wrong, I couldn't prove it right.

However this being is just an idea, and ideas aren't to be believed because they can't be proven wrong, they are to be believed because they can be proven right.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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3/20/2012 12:03:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 9:59:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/26/2012 6:30:34 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. If God can be irrational, then that means we cannot trust our minds to describe him in accurate way, since we only have the capacity to understand logic. This means that God does not need to follow our perceptions of rationality to exist, and therefore means it's impossible to prove or disprove his existence. It's like something 2 dimensional attempting to prove the existence of a 3rd dimension.

What you are talking about is what science calls an unfalsifiable claim. If I said there was an invisible being beside me who could not interact with physical reality or have physical reality interact with it, you couldn't prove me wrong, I couldn't prove it right.

However this being is just an idea, and ideas aren't to be believed because they can't be proven wrong, they are to be believed because they can be proven right.

no all ideas are true. or you have to claim that you are not thinking. The question is about proving that it is more then and idea.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/20/2012 2:45:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:03:13 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 3/19/2012 9:59:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/26/2012 6:30:34 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. If God can be irrational, then that means we cannot trust our minds to describe him in accurate way, since we only have the capacity to understand logic. This means that God does not need to follow our perceptions of rationality to exist, and therefore means it's impossible to prove or disprove his existence. It's like something 2 dimensional attempting to prove the existence of a 3rd dimension.

What you are talking about is what science calls an unfalsifiable claim. If I said there was an invisible being beside me who could not interact with physical reality or have physical reality interact with it, you couldn't prove me wrong, I couldn't prove it right.

However this being is just an idea, and ideas aren't to be believed because they can't be proven wrong, they are to be believed because they can be proven right.

no all ideas are true. or you have to claim that you are not thinking. The question is about proving that it is more then and idea.

I can have the idea that pythagorean maths says 2+2=5. That idea is wrong.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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3/20/2012 11:57:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's called fideism.

God is independent of reason, ergo no conclusions about Him may be derived by logical thinking.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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3/21/2012 1:21:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:45:20 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:03:13 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 3/19/2012 9:59:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/26/2012 6:30:34 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. If God can be irrational, then that means we cannot trust our minds to describe him in accurate way, since we only have the capacity to understand logic. This means that God does not need to follow our perceptions of rationality to exist, and therefore means it's impossible to prove or disprove his existence. It's like something 2 dimensional attempting to prove the existence of a 3rd dimension.

What you are talking about is what science calls an unfalsifiable claim. If I said there was an invisible being beside me who could not interact with physical reality or have physical reality interact with it, you couldn't prove me wrong, I couldn't prove it right.

However this being is just an idea, and ideas aren't to be believed because they can't be proven wrong, they are to be believed because they can be proven right.

no all ideas are true. or you have to claim that you are not thinking. The question is about proving that it is more then and idea.

I can have the idea that pythagorean maths says 2+2=5. That idea is wrong.

The idea is not wrong. its the content of the idea which is irrational. we can have irrational content in an Idea. For we have constradiction ideas all the time. but you are confusing the idea and its content. But thought them selfs are self-evident. by the fact that you are thinking. That is the sense in which they are true. The idea and thoughts in themselfs. Are true.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL