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Zero, one, or infinity?

Rational_Thinker9119
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3/11/2012 10:15:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe that reality as a whole can only be one of three things:

1. Zero (nothing exists, or somehow a different rearranged version of nothing exists )
2. One (one set of reality exists)
3. An infinite set of realities exist

For this reason I reject the supernatural because it breaks the zero, one, infinity rule because the supernatural world would invoke 2 sets:

1. The natural universe
2. The supernatural world

http://c2.com...
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/11/2012 10:17:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Basically, to invoke a supernatural would be two sets. This seems messy an not likely, reality most likely can only either be described as nothing, one, or infinity.
mattrodstrom
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3/11/2012 10:40:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Reality is ONE..

However.. This doesn't mean that there can't be the "natural(if by that you mean physical/space-time stuff)" and the "supernatural"..

it just means that they have to both be explained by the nature of reality.. They both, ultimately, have to be tied in together somehow.. and flow forth from the same reality

similarly you suggested that there could be infinite "realities".. however they all combine to make one ultimate reality... and the manner by which those other "realities" exist is part of that Ultimate, singular, reality.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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3/11/2012 10:42:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And, clearly, something exists..

so the idea that there could be nothing doesn't really require addressing.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/11/2012 10:55:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:40:15 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Reality is ONE..

However.. This doesn't mean that there can't be the "natural(if by that you mean physical/space-time stuff)" and the "supernatural"..

it just means that they have to both be explained by the nature of reality.. They both, ultimately, have to be tied in together somehow.. and flow forth from the same reality

similarly you suggested that there could be infinite "realities".. however they all combine to make one ultimate reality... and the manner by which those other "realities" exist is part of that Ultimate, singular, reality.

Well the problem with using the argument that reality is a set that can consist of two sets is that it is rather deceiving, because all that exists would be two sets you are just calling them both "reality", and labeling doesn't magically create a new master set into existence . The truth is the supernatural and natural would be all that exists, therefore two sets would be all that exists, just because you can name them both "reality" doesn't mean that magically makes them both under one set.

Therefore your rebuttal was clearly fallacious.
mattrodstrom
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3/11/2012 10:56:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:40:15 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
This doesn't mean that there can't be the "natural(if by that you mean physical/space-time stuff)" and the "supernatural"..

it just means that they have to both be explained by the nature of reality..

now.. if by "natural" you don't mean physical/space-time stuff.. but instead mean things operating due to their natures.. then I agree.. nothing can be "supernatural" or "without a nature"

For no Thing can be w/o a nature.. to call a thing a thing is to say it has a nature.
If you were to say a particular thing is w/o a nature then what thing are you talking about?
thing = particular/distinct nature

if that's what you mean by "natural" then there can be no "supernatural" for Even God would be natural/have a nature. That is, being Omni-benevolent.. omni-whatever.. and/or whatever else makes god "god".
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/11/2012 11:03:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:55:06 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Well the problem with using the argument that reality is a set that can consist of two sets is that it is rather deceiving, because all that exists would be two sets you are just calling them both "reality"

"reality" means: that which exists

if there are two existent sets.. then they both fall under "reality"...

now, what effects these particular sets have on each other is dictated by their natures and how they interact/whether they interact.. The manner in which these particular things interact is determined by the nature of that broader reality of which they're both a part.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/11/2012 11:20:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 11:03:07 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/11/2012 10:55:06 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Well the problem with using the argument that reality is a set that can consist of two sets is that it is rather deceiving, because all that exists would be two sets you are just calling them both "reality"

"reality" means: that which exists

if there are two existent sets.. then they both fall under "reality"...

now, what effects these particular sets have on each other is dictated by their natures and how they interact/whether they interact.. The manner in which these particular things interact is determined by the nature of that broader reality of which they're both a part.

Once more, reality is just a label so our rebuttal is fallacious. The point i'm making is lets say only the universe and this supernatural word exist, that means there can be nothing else that exists that can contain those two sets because the two sets are all that exist.

Reality is just what you label all that exists which is fine, but that doesn't put two sets under one set which exists, because besides the two sets, nothing would exist.
FREEDO
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3/11/2012 11:36:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can only be ONE of THREE things; ZERO, ONE, or INFINITY.

And I thought I could only troll philosophy like that. Win.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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3/11/2012 11:52:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:15:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I believe that reality as a whole can only be one of three things:

1. Zero (nothing exists, or somehow a different rearranged version of nothing exists )
2. One (one set of reality exists)
3. An infinite set of realities exist


For this reason I reject the supernatural because it breaks the zero, one, infinity rule because the supernatural world would invoke 2 sets:

1. The natural universe
2. The supernatural world

http://c2.com...

supernatural is just a word we use for things we can't explain. Kind of like magic.

If you showed up 2,000 years ago with a boombox, it would be magic, or supernatural.

If the things we call supernatural exist, then they are really natural. We just don't know it yet.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Irkutsk
Posts: 114
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3/12/2012 1:20:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 11:36:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Can only be ONE of THREE things; ZERO, ONE, or INFINITY.

And I thought I could only troll philosophy like that. Win.

HAaa.... . . .
Life is like radiation. A uniquely damaging event. Perhaps I will live another thirty years. Perhaps I will die tomorrow. But I have no regrets. I was sometimes forced to make difficult choices. But enough is enough. As Vladimir would say, you can only die once, make sure it is worth it.
mattrodstrom
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3/12/2012 11:41:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 11:20:06 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2012 11:03:07 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/11/2012 10:55:06 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Well the problem with using the argument that reality is a set that can consist of two sets is that it is rather deceiving, because all that exists would be two sets you are just calling them both "reality"

"reality" means: that which exists

if there are two existent sets.. then they both fall under "reality"...

now, what effects these particular sets have on each other is dictated by their natures and how they interact/whether they interact.. The manner in which these particular things interact is determined by the nature of that broader reality of which they're both a part.

Once more, reality is just a label so our rebuttal is fallacious. The point i'm making is lets say only the universe and this supernatural word exist, that means there can be nothing else that exists that can contain those two sets because the two sets are all that exist.

Reality is just what you label all that exists which is fine, but that doesn't put two sets under one set which exists, because besides the two sets, nothing would exist.

well.. At the very least, if they were Wholly separate then you, existent in one, couldn't tell about the existence of the other.. and so there's really no reason to say it exists or not or anything about other possible, separate, realities..

If they could interact then the rules lying behind their interaction would be reflective of the greater nature in which they both exist.

so.. At least "reality" meaning That which we are existent through is One..

be that the physical alone.. or the Physical and "spiritual" worlds interacting by means of the nature of Ultimate reality..

now.. sure, one might say there could be something "wholly separate"..but then there's really no reason to discuss such a thing... being that is has no bearing upon our reality even if it did exist (which we wouldn't plausibly have any capability of telling anyways )
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/12/2012 3:11:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 11:52:16 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 3/11/2012 10:15:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I believe that reality as a whole can only be one of three things:

1. Zero (nothing exists, or somehow a different rearranged version of nothing exists )
2. One (one set of reality exists)
3. An infinite set of realities exist


For this reason I reject the supernatural because it breaks the zero, one, infinity rule because the supernatural world would invoke 2 sets:

1. The natural universe
2. The supernatural world

http://c2.com...

supernatural is just a word we use for things we can't explain. Kind of like magic.

If you showed up 2,000 years ago with a boombox, it would be magic, or supernatural.

If the things we call supernatural exist, then they are really natural. We just don't know it yet.

I agree, what we haven't discovered is just more nature not the supernatural.
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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3/12/2012 3:42:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
According to the multiverse theory, there is an infinite amount of "realities". If by reality, your talking about planes of existence, than there is still more than one reality. If you define a natural world as a world that only science can observe, than it doesn't exist as shown by dark matter and god particles(hig particle). There is the natural world and then many more planes of existence, so the answer is two or three. I'm going with two because I think I read somewhere that it is impossible for an infinite amount of planes of existence.....
mattrodstrom
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3/12/2012 4:15:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 3:42:13 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to the multiverse theory, there is an infinite amount of "realities". If by reality, your talking about planes of existence, than there is still more than one reality. If you define a natural world as a world that only science can observe, than it doesn't exist as shown by dark matter and god particles(hig particle). There is the natural world and then many more planes of existence, so the answer is two or three. I'm going with two because I think I read somewhere that it is impossible for an infinite amount of planes of existence.....

what governs what kinds of planes there are?

do they depend upon one another? like those in "parallel"

I would think the Multiverse theory suggests that they're of the same stock..
Related in some way.. Similar.

What makes them the way they are? similar? related? "parallel"

if they are related, depend upon one another, Fit-together... Then they're all part of a greater whole.

And, I can't imagine anyone has any reason to posit that there Are Wholly separate/unrelated/independent planes of reality... for how would they come to know of them if not through some relation between that plane and ours?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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3/12/2012 5:02:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 4:15:28 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/12/2012 3:42:13 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to the multiverse theory, there is an infinite amount of "realities". If by reality, your talking about planes of existence, than there is still more than one reality. If you define a natural world as a world that only science can observe, than it doesn't exist as shown by dark matter and god particles(hig particle). There is the natural world and then many more planes of existence, so the answer is two or three. I'm going with two because I think I read somewhere that it is impossible for an infinite amount of planes of existence.....

what governs what kinds of planes there are?

do they depend upon one another? like those in "parallel"

I would think the Multiverse theory suggests that they're of the same stock..
Related in some way.. Similar.

What makes them the way they are? similar? related? "parallel"

if they are related, depend upon one another, Fit-together... Then they're all part of a greater whole.

And, I can't imagine anyone has any reason to posit that there Are Wholly separate/unrelated/independent planes of reality... for how would they come to know of them if not through some relation between that plane and ours?

1)All the multiverse theory says is that for every cause, every possible effect happens. Example, after reading this, you will both respond and not respond to my answer in two different universes. As for there being different laws that govern these ininite amount of universes, I don't know, but think you could find your answer under level four multiverse.

2) How did we come to know of this dark matter? We observed their effects that they had on our universe. We cannot actually observe them, just their effects. But one could argue the same with God, you cannot observe him, just his effects on the universe(phenomons and miracles). You cannot know what governs that which you cannot observe, so yes, we can say that they are unrelated and independent to the rules of our universe. And now that I think about it, I do remember something about nine planes of space and one plane of time....
Kleptin
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3/12/2012 5:44:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
True reality is best defined as a question mark.

It's best to live life as if though it were (1).
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ren
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3/12/2012 7:46:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 11:36:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Can only be ONE of THREE things; ZERO, ONE, or INFINITY.

And I thought I could only troll philosophy like that. Win.

Cleverer.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/12/2012 7:47:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:15:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I believe that reality as a whole can only be one of three things:

1. Zero (nothing exists, or somehow a different rearranged version of nothing exists )
2. One (one set of reality exists)
3. An infinite set of realities exist


For this reason I reject the supernatural because it breaks the zero, one, infinity rule because the supernatural world would invoke 2 sets:

1. The natural universe
2. The supernatural world

http://c2.com...

Anyway, mine was gonna be this.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/12/2012 9:49:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 5:02:28 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
1)All the multiverse theory says is that for every cause, every possible effect happens.

yeah, I've heard that one before.. and that one's silly :)

Only one effect is possible in any given instance.. and it follows forth from the nature of the things at hand.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/12/2012 9:57:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 5:02:28 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
2) How did we come to know of this dark matter?

huh? who talked of dark matter?

We observed their effects that they had on our universe. We cannot actually observe them, just their effects. i:But one could argue the same with God, you cannot observe him, just his effects on the universe(phenomons and miracles). You cannot know what governs that which you cannot observe, so yes, we can say that they are unrelated and independent to the rules of our universe. And now that I think about it, I do remember something about nine planes of space and one plane of time....

one can assume that if something interacts with something else.. it does so my some means.. by some method.

The acts/happenings of the one must link up with the effects they evoke in the other through some process. The two supposedly 'separate' things must have some manner of being linked or else the one couldn't affect the other.

so.. Ultimate reality includes the two supposedly separate 'planes' along with their linkage... all in all.. One coherent whole.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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3/12/2012 10:31:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"yeah, I've heard that one before.. and that one's silly :)"
No, its not silly, its quantum physics. was a really mindblower for people even like einstein, but not silly. Example, you put a spoon in a vacuum. The spoon moves and stays still at the exact same time. Nothing but the multiverse theory can explain this.

Just because things react from different planes of existence doesn't mean they are "whole". One might define the supernatural plane of existence as a plane that does not follow the laws of physics nor the laws of logic. If they were to go by this definition, then they may still be correct since we cannot observe things on different planes of existence.

My question is how does something from a different plane of existence not follow the laws of physics but then on another plane follow them and still be considered a "whole". If they are whole, then wouldn't they all follow the same rules? Quantum physics is wierd ;)
IFLYHIGH
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3/12/2012 10:36:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Multiverse theory revolves around the atom. It has been proven that you cannot pinpoit a electrons location which only has one possible meaning. It is in multiple spots at the same time. Since it the electrons is in multiple spots at one time, then multiple different occurences are happing every second. They actually say that you can visit your twin self in a twin universe approximately 10^28 light years away(or something like that). CRAZY
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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3/13/2012 9:26:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 11:36:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Can only be ONE of THREE things; ZERO, ONE, or INFINITY.

The Fool: okay I am going to answer this riddle now. I am curious if you will get it, the answer is very easy actually!

THE IS ONLY ONE!

curious to here what people thing about this? pls talke about.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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3/14/2012 12:17:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/13/2012 9:26:28 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 3/11/2012 11:36:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Can only be ONE of THREE things; ZERO, ONE, or INFINITY.

The Fool: okay I am going to answer this riddle now. I am curious if you will get it, the answer is very easy actually!

THERE IS ONLY ONE!

Zero and Infinite are illusions!!!!

For The ONE is the Whole and the Particular and thus also the many.

even when there are 3 there is 1(3) or 3 sets of 1 nothing escapes 1.

Car its 1, house its 1, house 5 cars 1 set of 5 cars. 1 thought ahhhhhhHH!

You could never escape ONE!! THE ONE IS THE FOOL!!

Curious to here what people thing about this? pls talke about.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL