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Lucid Dreaming and a Case For God

Rockylightning
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3/24/2012 6:25:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For keeps:

Lucid Dreaming and A Case For God

I bet al of you have had a dream in which you know you are dreaming but cant wake up. This is call a lucid dream. Lucid dreaming http://en.wikipedia.org... is when one dreams while is conscious that one is dreaming. A key difference between a lucid dream and a normal dream is that in a normal dream, you are unaware of the irrationalities in physics and logic.

In a normal dream you can fly and it can rain frogs, with you being oblivious and failing to notice the irrationality behind such events. Usually, you wake up realizing how silly your dream was.

In a lucid dream, you can still fly, but you recognize that you are dreaming and that flying is impossible. You accept the absurdity of the dream and keep dreaming, because lucid dreaming is very fun.

This begs the question, if we are completely unaware of the irrationalities in a normal dream, could we be unaware of irrationalities when we wake up to the real world? Entering a dream is entering an sub-reality, where things can happen that wouldn't in the 'real' world. How can we be sure that our world isnt a sub-reality of a larger reality.

The answer is we can't. In a normal dream, it is impossible to know that you are dreaming (proving you are in a sub-reality). It is the same that you cannot know you are dreaming in the 'real' world. This implies that we may be completely unaware of logical or physical irrationalities that we are experiencing every day.

How does this relate to a case for god? I'll try to be brief. Let's postulate that there is a god, and that he is omnipotent, omniscient etc. If we are in a sub-reality right now, this means that there are multiple "styles" of logic/physics and that God simply may not operate by our laws of logic and physics. In the larger reality, maybe god would be able to accomplish the "hypocritical" or "contradictory" actions many texts ascribe to him.

To summarize, logic and physics are not constant through different realities. Therefore, in a different reality a god may very well exist, and the possibility of a god exists because we cannot distinguish between realities when we are in them.
FREEDO
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3/24/2012 8:58:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm almost certain I made this thread before, elaborating on the concept of being a "lucid waker". I didn't tie it into God though.

This all ties into the well-known but highly under-talked-about thought experiment called "The Demon". It posits that there may be some Demon, or other source, which is preventing you from seeing certain obvious falsehoods or, likewise, implanting absurdities as truth. So it is impossible to truly know anything for sure, even our supposedly self-evident individual existence.
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fnord
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3/24/2012 9:12:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've had a few lucid dreams before - and have been unable to fully control them though. This summer when I can sleep in I will try this phenomena again - with the WBTB and MILD methods likely.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
PARADIGM_L0ST
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3/24/2012 9:56:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't remember my dreams most of the time. And if I do, I forget them within 10 minutes of waking up.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
FREEDO
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3/24/2012 9:56:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I only lucid dream but I get tired of controlling it so I tend to let it go by itself even after recognizing it.
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fnord
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3/24/2012 11:09:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 9:56:22 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I only lucid dream but I get tired of controlling it so I tend to let it go by itself even after recognizing it.

Lucky
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Zaradi
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3/24/2012 11:34:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This sounds eerily like the plot from Inception, minus the God bit.
Is Rocky Christopher Nolan?
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nonentity
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3/24/2012 11:47:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 11:42:15 PM, nonentity wrote:
This is all speculation at best... Dreaming is not a "sub reality" :/

At least, not any different from someone with Psychosis or under the influence experiencing a "sub reality".
Lickdafoot
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3/24/2012 11:49:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 6:25:54 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
For keeps:

Lucid Dreaming and A Case For God

I bet al of you have had a dream in which you know you are dreaming but cant wake up. This is call a lucid dream. Lucid dreaming http://en.wikipedia.org... is when one dreams while is conscious that one is dreaming. A key difference between a lucid dream and a normal dream is that in a normal dream, you are unaware of the irrationalities in physics and logic.

In a normal dream you can fly and it can rain frogs, with you being oblivious and failing to notice the irrationality behind such events. Usually, you wake up realizing how silly your dream was.

In a lucid dream, you can still fly, but you recognize that you are dreaming and that flying is impossible. You accept the absurdity of the dream and keep dreaming, because lucid dreaming is very fun.

This begs the question, if we are completely unaware of the irrationalities in a normal dream, could we be unaware of irrationalities when we wake up to the real world? Entering a dream is entering an sub-reality, where things can happen that wouldn't in the 'real' world. How can we be sure that our world isnt a sub-reality of a larger reality.

But the thing is, the rational mind IS aware of the irrationalities, and that is how you can realize you are dreaming. The interesting thing is that your dream specimens will swear up and down that they are real, and ignore you if you tell them that they are a figment of your imagination. O.o This has always sort of flabbergasted me, to be honest.

The answer is we can't. In a normal dream, it is impossible to know that you are dreaming (proving you are in a sub-reality). It is the same that you cannot know you are dreaming in the 'real' world. This implies that we may be completely unaware of logical or physical irrationalities that we are experiencing every day.

But i see what you are getting at. I used to think of the world as a big dream going on in god's mind.

How does this relate to a case for god? I'll try to be brief. Let's postulate that there is a god, and that he is omnipotent, omniscient etc. If we are in a sub-reality right now, this means that there are multiple "styles" of logic/physics and that God simply may not operate by our laws of logic and physics. In the larger reality, maybe god would be able to accomplish the "hypocritical" or "contradictory" actions many texts ascribe to him.

To summarize, logic and physics are not constant through different realities. Therefore, in a different reality a god may very well exist, and the possibility of a god exists because we cannot distinguish between realities when we are in them.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
nonentity
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3/24/2012 11:54:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 6:25:54 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
For keeps:

Lucid Dreaming and A Case For God

I bet al of you have had a dream in which you know you are dreaming but cant wake up. This is call a lucid dream. Lucid dreaming http://en.wikipedia.org... is when one dreams while is conscious that one is dreaming. A key difference between a lucid dream and a normal dream is that in a normal dream, you are unaware of the irrationalities in physics and logic.

In a normal dream you can fly and it can rain frogs, with you being oblivious and failing to notice the irrationality behind such events. Usually, you wake up realizing how silly your dream was.

In a lucid dream, you can still fly, but you recognize that you are dreaming and that flying is impossible. You accept the absurdity of the dream and keep dreaming, because lucid dreaming is very fun.

This begs the question, if we are completely unaware of the irrationalities in a normal dream, could we be unaware of irrationalities when we wake up to the real world? Entering a dream is entering an sub-reality, where things can happen that wouldn't in the 'real' world. How can we be sure that our world isnt a sub-reality of a larger reality.

The answer is we can't. In a normal dream, it is impossible to know that you are dreaming (proving you are in a sub-reality). It is the same that you cannot know you are dreaming in the 'real' world. This implies that we may be completely unaware of logical or physical irrationalities that we are experiencing every day.

How does this relate to a case for god? I'll try to be brief. Let's postulate that there is a god, and that he is omnipotent, omniscient etc. If we are in a sub-reality right now, this means that there are multiple "styles" of logic/physics and that God simply may not operate by our laws of logic and physics. In the larger reality, maybe god would be able to accomplish the "hypocritical" or "contradictory" actions many texts ascribe to him.


But as mentioned earlier, in dreams you don't see irrationalities when they are there. Now this guy is saying it would follow that in our reality we see irrationalities when they are not there? The comparison doesn't really make sense.

To summarize, logic and physics are not constant through different realities.

But they are... If you dream that your body is transported to another place, nothing has phsyically happened... If you have a psychotic episode logic doesn't change to accomodate your episode... it just means you're wrong.

Therefore, in a different reality a god may very well exist, and the possibility of a god exists because we cannot distinguish between realities when we are in them.
FREEDO
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3/25/2012 1:23:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 11:47:55 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/24/2012 11:42:15 PM, nonentity wrote:
This is all speculation at best... Dreaming is not a "sub reality" :/

At least, not any different from someone with Psychosis or under the influence experiencing a "sub reality".

Dreams are just as much a reality as when we are awake. No one has ever perceived the true state of the things. All we have are our self-manifested and crude examples of the truth.
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fnord
Rockylightning
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3/25/2012 1:45:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ok, let's say all of this, all of our world, is a dream. You are dreaming. You do not realize any irrationalities that may exist (just like a normal dream). You are unaware that you are dreaming (just like a normal dream).

If someone in this reality claimed that this was all a dream, and that they were "lucid" dreamers, we would label them as insane.
FREEDO
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3/25/2012 1:46:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 1:45:45 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Ok, let's say all of this, all of our world, is a dream. You are dreaming. You do not realize any irrationalities that may exist (just like a normal dream). You are unaware that you are dreaming (just like a normal dream).

If someone in this reality claimed that this was all a dream, and that they were "lucid" dreamers, we would label them as insane.

Exhibit A: Discordians
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fnord
nonentity
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3/25/2012 1:58:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 1:45:45 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Ok, let's say all of this, all of our world, is a dream. You are dreaming. You do not realize any irrationalities that may exist (just like a normal dream). You are unaware that you are dreaming (just like a normal dream).

If someone in this reality claimed that this was all a dream, and that they were "lucid" dreamers, we would label them as insane.

The difference being that we can share experiences in reality, while you can't share experiences in a dream.
FREEDO
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3/25/2012 2:01:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 1:58:50 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/25/2012 1:45:45 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Ok, let's say all of this, all of our world, is a dream. You are dreaming. You do not realize any irrationalities that may exist (just like a normal dream). You are unaware that you are dreaming (just like a normal dream).

If someone in this reality claimed that this was all a dream, and that they were "lucid" dreamers, we would label them as insane.

The difference being that we can share experiences in reality, while you can't share experiences in a dream.

How do you know either of those things?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
nonentity
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3/25/2012 2:12:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 2:01:35 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/25/2012 1:58:50 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/25/2012 1:45:45 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Ok, let's say all of this, all of our world, is a dream. You are dreaming. You do not realize any irrationalities that may exist (just like a normal dream). You are unaware that you are dreaming (just like a normal dream).

If someone in this reality claimed that this was all a dream, and that they were "lucid" dreamers, we would label them as insane.

The difference being that we can share experiences in reality, while you can't share experiences in a dream.

How do you know either of those things?

I can look at the moon and describe it in the same way as someone across the world whom I've never met would describe it. Sure, we all interpret things subjectively, but ultimately we share the same "reality". If something happens in real life, we can all tangibly see it and experience it, recall it, describe it, etc. Details may (and will) vary but the general concept is similar.

No one will ever experience a dream you've had. No two people are going to wake up and recount the same dream, not even close. If two people describe a picture in real life, yes, they may describe different aspects of the picture and come up with two completely different descriptions---but ultimately they're looking at the same picture.
Lickdafoot
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3/25/2012 2:45:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 2:12:29 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/25/2012 2:01:35 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/25/2012 1:58:50 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/25/2012 1:45:45 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Ok, let's say all of this, all of our world, is a dream. You are dreaming. You do not realize any irrationalities that may exist (just like a normal dream). You are unaware that you are dreaming (just like a normal dream).

If someone in this reality claimed that this was all a dream, and that they were "lucid" dreamers, we would label them as insane.

The difference being that we can share experiences in reality, while you can't share experiences in a dream.

How do you know either of those things?

I can look at the moon and describe it in the same way as someone across the world whom I've never met would describe it. Sure, we all interpret things subjectively, but ultimately we share the same "reality". If something happens in real life, we can all tangibly see it and experience it, recall it, describe it, etc. Details may (and will) vary but the general concept is similar.

No one will ever experience a dream you've had. No two people are going to wake up and recount the same dream, not even close. If two people describe a picture in real life, yes, they may describe different aspects of the picture and come up with two completely different descriptions---but ultimately they're looking at the same picture.

DUN DUN DUN.. And this is where it gets interesting. It has happened, or so people claim. I've never tried it.

Kinda weird to think about, but people have claimed to have shared dreams before. I've read a few articles about it. What happens, apparently, is that there are two people who can lucid dream. One of them goes lucid, and goes and finds the other one. The lucider attempts to pull the normal dreamer out of their dream or to at least convince them that they are dreaming. They then have a dream together. If they were lucid, they will most surely remember, and compare details about the dream to see how much of it matches up.

This is one of the supporting factors about how there is this "Astral plane" (as well as people who have out of body experiences) because they both see the same surroundings in the dream, or similar enough... so is one persons brain manifesting the surroundings, or are they there on their own?
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nonentity
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3/25/2012 2:54:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 2:45:33 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:

DUN DUN DUN.. And this is where it gets interesting. It has happened, or so people claim. I've never tried it.

Kinda weird to think about, but people have claimed to have shared dreams before. I've read a few articles about it. What happens, apparently, is that there are two people who can lucid dream. One of them goes lucid, and goes and finds the other one. The lucider attempts to pull the normal dreamer out of their dream or to at least convince them that they are dreaming. They then have a dream together. If they were lucid, they will most surely remember, and compare details about the dream to see how much of it matches up.

This is one of the supporting factors about how there is this "Astral plane" (as well as people who have out of body experiences) because they both see the same surroundings in the dream, or similar enough... so is one persons brain manifesting the surroundings, or are they there on their own?

I'd like to see the studies/sources before I make any comment lol
DakotaKrafick
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3/25/2012 2:58:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 1:45:45 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Ok, let's say all of this, all of our world, is a dream. You are dreaming. You do not realize any irrationalities that may exist (just like a normal dream). You are unaware that you are dreaming (just like a normal dream).

If someone in this reality claimed that this was all a dream, and that they were "lucid" dreamers, we would label them as insane.

The premise would more or less read "Everything you think you perceive as reality is nothing more than a cleverly disguised illusion". The problem is that while this might be true, there is no evidence to support it, and therefore it should not be believed to be true.
Jon1
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3/25/2012 7:11:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 9:56:22 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I only lucid dream but I get tired of controlling it so I tend to let it go by itself even after recognizing it.

Lucky
SarcasticIndeed
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3/25/2012 8:28:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 6:25:54 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
For keeps:

Lucid Dreaming and A Case For God

I bet al of you have had a dream in which you know you are dreaming but cant wake up. This is call a lucid dream. Lucid dreaming http://en.wikipedia.org... is when one dreams while is conscious that one is dreaming. A key difference between a lucid dream and a normal dream is that in a normal dream, you are unaware of the irrationalities in physics and logic.

In a normal dream you can fly and it can rain frogs, with you being oblivious and failing to notice the irrationality behind such events. Usually, you wake up realizing how silly your dream was.

In a lucid dream, you can still fly, but you recognize that you are dreaming and that flying is impossible. You accept the absurdity of the dream and keep dreaming, because lucid dreaming is very fun.

This begs the question, if we are completely unaware of the irrationalities in a normal dream, could we be unaware of irrationalities when we wake up to the real world? Entering a dream is entering an sub-reality, where things can happen that wouldn't in the 'real' world. How can we be sure that our world isnt a sub-reality of a larger reality.

The answer is we can't. In a normal dream, it is impossible to know that you are dreaming (proving you are in a sub-reality). It is the same that you cannot know you are dreaming in the 'real' world. This implies that we may be completely unaware of logical or physical irrationalities that we are experiencing every day.

How does this relate to a case for god? I'll try to be brief. Let's postulate that there is a god, and that he is omnipotent, omniscient etc. If we are in a sub-reality right now, this means that there are multiple "styles" of logic/physics and that God simply may not operate by our laws of logic and physics. In the larger reality, maybe god would be able to accomplish the "hypocritical" or "contradictory" actions many texts ascribe to him.

To summarize, logic and physics are not constant through different realities. Therefore, in a different reality a god may very well exist, and the possibility of a god exists because we cannot distinguish between realities when we are in them.

When we have a normal dream, we don't understand things are irrational because our brain's logic center is down, thus making any connected thoughts impossible. Lucid dreaming is keeping the logic center up through numerous techniques (e.g. MILD, DILD, WILD, DEILD...) or by having the natural talent for it. Dream is not a sub-reality, it is a sequence of all of the five senses that occur during our sleep. Some, of course, argue that dreams have spiritual value, and that they are a world from themselves, but I find this a bit foolish. Some, on the other hand, believe that shared dreaming is possible, on which I am undecided, knowing quite a few people that said they shared a dream.

So, no, dreams are probably not another plane of existence.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/25/2012 9:22:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"The problem is that while this might be true, there is no evidence to support it, and therefore it should not be believed to be true."

/Thread
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/25/2012 4:08:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Dreams happen when the mind is cut off from most external senses and is forced to swim with itself. There isn't likely to be a sufficient connection between two or more people to transfer information at the accuracy to make for a true shared dream. People will however take advantage of the fact that people believe in these connections. See the small religious movement, eckankar.

As for our state during "awake" life, we still do not have a sufficient connection to the external world to accurately transfer information. In a sense, we are constantly dreaming due to our inability to perceive the variable accounted for.

Human beings are sleeping by nature.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/25/2012 4:11:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This isn't a case for God so much as it is a case for the duality of the human cognitive process and the inaccuracy of human communication.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/25/2012 4:16:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well if you are basing God existing off of evidence given to you in a dream, then wouldn't that imply that God most likely doesn't exist in 'reality'?
FREEDO
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3/25/2012 4:34:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 2:12:29 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/25/2012 2:01:35 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/25/2012 1:58:50 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/25/2012 1:45:45 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Ok, let's say all of this, all of our world, is a dream. You are dreaming. You do not realize any irrationalities that may exist (just like a normal dream). You are unaware that you are dreaming (just like a normal dream).

If someone in this reality claimed that this was all a dream, and that they were "lucid" dreamers, we would label them as insane.

The difference being that we can share experiences in reality, while you can't share experiences in a dream.

How do you know either of those things?

I can look at the moon and describe it in the same way as someone across the world whom I've never met would describe it. Sure, we all interpret things subjectively, but ultimately we share the same "reality". If something happens in real life, we can all tangibly see it and experience it, recall it, describe it, etc. Details may (and will) vary but the general concept is similar.

No one will ever experience a dream you've had. No two people are going to wake up and recount the same dream, not even close. If two people describe a picture in real life, yes, they may describe different aspects of the picture and come up with two completely different descriptions---but ultimately they're looking at the same picture.

Haha, no, no, no. I think you're missing it. How do you know you have shared an experience with anyone? Only through your personal experience, right? Someone told you they shared an experience with you in some way? Well, what if you dream of someone saying the same thing? You have no way of telling which is real or unreal.
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fnord
Rusty
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3/25/2012 4:34:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 2:58:09 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 3/25/2012 1:45:45 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Ok, let's say all of this, all of our world, is a dream. You are dreaming. You do not realize any irrationalities that may exist (just like a normal dream). You are unaware that you are dreaming (just like a normal dream).

If someone in this reality claimed that this was all a dream, and that they were "lucid" dreamers, we would label them as insane.

The premise would more or less read "Everything you think you perceive as reality is nothing more than a cleverly disguised illusion". The problem is that while this might be true, there is no evidence to support it, and therefore it should not be believed to be true.

I've never really gotten into this before, but exactly what would evidence to support this look like?

"Oh yeah, you see that billboard over there? The one clearly defying the laws of physics? Yeah, that's our evidence that we're witnessing a cleverly disguised illusion."

It just seems to me that if there were some kind of clearly discernible evidence that we were in some sort of illusory state, then it wouldn't be as cleverly disguised as it could have been, and thus the thought experiment isn't being fully engaged with in the first place... or so I would think. Go ahead and correct me if I'm mistaken here. That's just what it seems like to me at face value.
FREEDO
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3/25/2012 4:36:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 2:54:13 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/25/2012 2:45:33 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:

DUN DUN DUN.. And this is where it gets interesting. It has happened, or so people claim. I've never tried it.

Kinda weird to think about, but people have claimed to have shared dreams before. I've read a few articles about it. What happens, apparently, is that there are two people who can lucid dream. One of them goes lucid, and goes and finds the other one. The lucider attempts to pull the normal dreamer out of their dream or to at least convince them that they are dreaming. They then have a dream together. If they were lucid, they will most surely remember, and compare details about the dream to see how much of it matches up.

This is one of the supporting factors about how there is this "Astral plane" (as well as people who have out of body experiences) because they both see the same surroundings in the dream, or similar enough... so is one persons brain manifesting the surroundings, or are they there on their own?

I'd like to see the studies/sources before I make any comment lol

It's called The Ganzfeld Procedure. This doesn't explain it but it's very entertaining.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
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3/25/2012 4:46:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you want to Lucid Dream, just take a shitload of DMT.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)