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The Way of the Sufi

Stephen_Hawkins
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4/11/2012 11:28:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://debateorg.blogspot.co.uk...

Anyone have any thoughts on Sufism? I'm trying to learn a bit about it and write up my findings in an accessible manner. I know I've currently missed out on Nasrudin (who I know isn't real, if anyone's going to try and play smart), but I am wondering what else I am missing.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/11/2012 11:40:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual
Sufism is about annihilation of the self, facepalm. The only thing you're supposed to
"become" is "aware" of the "Fact" that there is literally nothing in existence except God. Everything else you see in Sufism is a means to that end.

See Attar:

""A lover," said the hoopoe, now their guide,
"Is one in whom all thoughts of Self have died;
Those who renounce the Self deserve that name;
Righteous or sinful, they are all the same!
Your heart is thwarted by the Self's control;

Destroy its hold on you and reach your goal.
Give up this hindrance, give up mortal sight,
For only then can you approach the light.

If you are told: ‘Renounce our Faith', obey!
The Self and Faith must both be tossed away;
Blasphemers call such actions blasphemy --
Tell them that love exceeds mere piety.
Love has no time for blasphemy or faith,
Nor lovers for the Self, that feeble wraith."

You'll find similar statements of annihilation in unity in just about any Sufi's writings you look at.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/11/2012 1:02:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 11:40:41 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual
Sufism is about annihilation of the self, facepalm. The only thing you're supposed to
"become" is "aware" of the "Fact" that there is literally nothing in existence except God. Everything else you see in Sufism is a means to that end.

See Attar:

""A lover," said the hoopoe, now their guide,
"Is one in whom all thoughts of Self have died;
Those who renounce the Self deserve that name;
Righteous or sinful, they are all the same!
Your heart is thwarted by the Self's control;

Destroy its hold on you and reach your goal.
Give up this hindrance, give up mortal sight,
For only then can you approach the light.

If you are told: ‘Renounce our Faith', obey!
The Self and Faith must both be tossed away;
Blasphemers call such actions blasphemy --
Tell them that love exceeds mere piety.
Love has no time for blasphemy or faith,
Nor lovers for the Self, that feeble wraith."

You'll find similar statements of annihilation in unity in just about any Sufi's writings you look at.

OK. Fana wrote about this, and it is his idea. Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers. The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations. If you want to see where I put that in the (original) post:

"Sufis argue that all human beings have been conditioned and indoctrinated because everyone's culture makes people predisposed to certain ideas."

Also, if you finished that quotation:

"Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual. This means stripping away the complacent laziness which many of us have, and the removal of the characteristics that modern society has gave us, and challenging the individual to fulfilling their capacity of what they are capable of becoming. "

Please don't make out that I have misunderstood something in such a bold way, because if you misinterpret something or misunderstand something, it makes you sound idiotic if you get it wrong, and childish even if you get it right.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/11/2012 1:34:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I approve of Sufism. It is the best form of Islam.

It is one of the more Enlightened religions of the world that's for sure. It seems to have a strong Eastern influence as well or it simply could have come to these conclusions on its own and managed to reach the same truths as the Eastern philosophies.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/11/2012 1:40:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:02:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
OK. Fana wrote about this, and it is his idea.
As you yourself know this sentence makes no sense.

Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers.
Not to work out the answers. Working things out is prohibited.

The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations.
Not "conformings and indoctrinations," illusions. Some sufis (not all) are all aboard conforming and indoctrinating, what they are all against is physical reality as opposed to the "reality" of oneness.

I approve of Sufism. It is the best form of Islam.
If by best you mean the most anti-life.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Stephen_Hawkins
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4/11/2012 2:03:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:40:11 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/11/2012 1:02:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
OK. Fana wrote about this, and it is his idea.
As you yourself know this sentence makes no sense.

I learnt of the idea of Fana by the poet who called himself Fana, because he focused on the idea of Fana, and developed his own idea on what Fana is, so he calls himself Fana. Which makes writing about him banterous.

Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers.
Not to work out the answers. Working things out is prohibited.

lol. I don't think you disagree anymore, I think you're trying to pick fault to save face.

The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations.
Not "conformings and indoctrinations," illusions. Some sufis (not all) are all aboard conforming and indoctrinating, what they are all against is physical reality as opposed to the "reality" of oneness.

Except all Sufis that I have learnt about, and all works I read about them, put forth this idea. I'd like to point out I am referring to the more modern Sufis here, though, so maybe that's our discrepency.

I approve of Sufism. It is the best form of Islam.
If by best you mean the most anti-life.

lol K. Put Geolaureate above this, because it's confusing otherwise (I thought you were putting words in my mouth for a moment).
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/11/2012 3:22:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 2:03:54 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
I learnt of the idea of Fana by the poet who called himself Fana, because he focused on the idea of Fana, and developed his own idea on what Fana is, so he calls himself Fana. Which makes writing about him banterous.
That makes it make slightly more sense, but I doubt it's his idea, they teach the concept in the Sufism class I took last quarter without saying anything about a fellow by that name.


Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers.
Not to work out the answers. Working things out is prohibited.

lol. I don't think you disagree anymore, I think you're trying to pick fault to save face.
No, working things out is prohibited. Working things out is the way of the ulama, not the sufi. Difference between knowledge and "gnosis" and all that bs.


The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations.
Not "conformings and indoctrinations," illusions. Some sufis (not all) are all aboard conforming and indoctrinating, what they are all against is physical reality as opposed to the "reality" of oneness.

Except all Sufis that I have learnt about, and all works I read about them, put forth this idea. I'd like to point out I am referring to the more modern Sufis here, though, so maybe that's our discrepency.
Modern Sufis are all over the place (no few number of them seem to think Sufism has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam) but "conforming is always bad" is certainly nowhere to be found in the writings of Rumi (who, after all, wrote poetry to conform to the expectations of his readers-- and this was one of the "drunk" sufis, not the sober ones!), of Junaid, the teachings of the Naqshabandiyah, etc.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Stephen_Hawkins
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4/11/2012 4:38:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 3:22:12 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/11/2012 2:03:54 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
I learnt of the idea of Fana by the poet who called himself Fana, because he focused on the idea of Fana, and developed his own idea on what Fana is, so he calls himself Fana. Which makes writing about him banterous.
That makes it make slightly more sense, but I doubt it's his idea, they teach the concept in the Sufism class I took last quarter without saying anything about a fellow by that name.

Ahh, OK. I am focusing on contemporary philosophies, a subject that came up is the three approaches to truth, a segment was Sufism, which was based around Fana's works.

Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers.
Not to work out the answers. Working things out is prohibited.

lol. I don't think you disagree anymore, I think you're trying to pick fault to save face.
No, working things out is prohibited. Working things out is the way of the ulama, not the sufi. Difference between knowledge and "gnosis" and all that bs.

That's picking fault with wording. I mean working out as in the process of getting to know i.e. meditation on ideas, Nasradin, etc.

The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations.
Not "conformings and indoctrinations," illusions. Some sufis (not all) are all aboard conforming and indoctrinating, what they are all against is physical reality as opposed to the "reality" of oneness.

Except all Sufis that I have learnt about, and all works I read about them, put forth this idea. I'd like to point out I am referring to the more modern Sufis here, though, so maybe that's our discrepency.
Modern Sufis are all over the place (no few number of them seem to think Sufism has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam) but "conforming is always bad" is certainly nowhere to be found in the writings of Rumi (who, after all, wrote poetry to conform to the expectations of his readers-- and this was one of the "drunk" sufis, not the sober ones!), of Junaid, the teachings of the Naqshabandiyah, etc.

With Rumi, I remember him stating that we should speak at the level other people could understand, but not that we should conform to allow others to understand. And with the Naqsyabandiyah, it seemed more like a Puritan descent from the original ideas of Sufism (if there was any to nail down to begin with).
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/11/2012 6:44:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
With Rumi, I remember him stating that we should speak at the level other people could understand, but not that we should conform to allow others to understand.
No statements the other direction either ^_^

And with the Naqsyabandiyah, it seemed more like a Puritan descent from the original ideas of Sufism (if there was any to nail down to begin with).
It's 1300 years old, doesn't get much more original in Sufism.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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4/11/2012 6:46:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:02:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 11:40:41 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual
Sufism is about annihilation of the self, facepalm. The only thing you're supposed to
"become" is "aware" of the "Fact" that there is literally nothing in existence except God. Everything else you see in Sufism is a means to that end.

See Attar:

""A lover," said the hoopoe, now their guide,
"Is one in whom all thoughts of Self have died;
Those who renounce the Self deserve that name;
Righteous or sinful, they are all the same!
Your heart is thwarted by the Self's control;

Destroy its hold on you and reach your goal.
Give up this hindrance, give up mortal sight,
For only then can you approach the light.

If you are told: ‘Renounce our Faith', obey!
The Self and Faith must both be tossed away;
Blasphemers call such actions blasphemy --
Tell them that love exceeds mere piety.
Love has no time for blasphemy or faith,
Nor lovers for the Self, that feeble wraith."

You'll find similar statements of annihilation in unity in just about any Sufi's writings you look at.

OK. Fana wrote about this, and it is his idea. Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers. The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations. If you want to see where I put that in the (original) post:

"Sufis argue that all human beings have been conditioned and indoctrinated because everyone's culture makes people predisposed to certain ideas."

Also, if you finished that quotation:

"Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual. This means stripping away the complacent laziness which many of us have, and the removal of the characteristics that modern society has gave us, and challenging the individual to fulfilling their capacity of what they are capable of becoming. "

Please don't make out that I have misunderstood something in such a bold way, because if you misinterpret something or misunderstand something, it makes you sound idiotic if you get it wrong, and childish even if you get it right.

The Fool: Sufi is a religion, I wouldn't say they argue for anything, rather then simply assert it. It is contempory philosophers that create arguments in support of its concepts, in the same we do for a lot of aspects of Buddism. In fact there is alot of overlap, particularly annihilation of the self. Such concepts as being conditioned by Society are very 19-20th century western ideas and we should be carefull how much we are putting in the mouths of original Sufi doctrine.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/11/2012 6:48:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 6:46:32 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 4/11/2012 1:02:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 11:40:41 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual
Sufism is about annihilation of the self, facepalm. The only thing you're supposed to
"become" is "aware" of the "Fact" that there is literally nothing in existence except God. Everything else you see in Sufism is a means to that end.

See Attar:

""A lover," said the hoopoe, now their guide,
"Is one in whom all thoughts of Self have died;
Those who renounce the Self deserve that name;
Righteous or sinful, they are all the same!
Your heart is thwarted by the Self's control;

Destroy its hold on you and reach your goal.
Give up this hindrance, give up mortal sight,
For only then can you approach the light.

If you are told: ‘Renounce our Faith', obey!
The Self and Faith must both be tossed away;
Blasphemers call such actions blasphemy --
Tell them that love exceeds mere piety.
Love has no time for blasphemy or faith,
Nor lovers for the Self, that feeble wraith."

You'll find similar statements of annihilation in unity in just about any Sufi's writings you look at.

OK. Fana wrote about this, and it is his idea. Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers. The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations. If you want to see where I put that in the (original) post:

"Sufis argue that all human beings have been conditioned and indoctrinated because everyone's culture makes people predisposed to certain ideas."

Also, if you finished that quotation:

"Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual. This means stripping away the complacent laziness which many of us have, and the removal of the characteristics that modern society has gave us, and challenging the individual to fulfilling their capacity of what they are capable of becoming. "

Please don't make out that I have misunderstood something in such a bold way, because if you misinterpret something or misunderstand something, it makes you sound idiotic if you get it wrong, and childish even if you get it right.


The Fool: Sufi is a religion.

I stopped reading at this point, to be honest. I can't see it picking up from here.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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4/11/2012 6:57:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 6:48:01 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 6:46:32 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 4/11/2012 1:02:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 11:40:41 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual
Sufism is about annihilation of the self, facepalm. The only thing you're supposed to
"become" is "aware" of the "Fact" that there is literally nothing in existence except God. Everything else you see in Sufism is a means to that end.

See Attar:

""A lover," said the hoopoe, now their guide,
"Is one in whom all thoughts of Self have died;
Those who renounce the Self deserve that name;
Righteous or sinful, they are all the same!
Your heart is thwarted by the Self's control;

Destroy its hold on you and reach your goal.
Give up this hindrance, give up mortal sight,
For only then can you approach the light.

If you are told: ‘Renounce our Faith', obey!
The Self and Faith must both be tossed away;
Blasphemers call such actions blasphemy --
Tell them that love exceeds mere piety.
Love has no time for blasphemy or faith,
Nor lovers for the Self, that feeble wraith."

You'll find similar statements of annihilation in unity in just about any Sufi's writings you look at.

OK. Fana wrote about this, and it is his idea. Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers. The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations. If you want to see where I put that in the (original) post:

"Sufis argue that all human beings have been conditioned and indoctrinated because everyone's culture makes people predisposed to certain ideas."

Also, if you finished that quotation:

"Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual. This means stripping away the complacent laziness which many of us have, and the removal of the characteristics that modern society has gave us, and challenging the individual to fulfilling their capacity of what they are capable of becoming. "

Please don't make out that I have misunderstood something in such a bold way, because if you misinterpret something or misunderstand something, it makes you sound idiotic if you get it wrong, and childish even if you get it right.


The Fool: Sufi is a religion.

I stopped reading at this point, to be honest. I can't see it picking up from here.

The Fool: well that what it means to be ignorant
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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4/11/2012 6:59:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It was for people who no more about the topic. Maybe someone who has also studies eastern philosophy. I assume Geo has.

The idea is that they start as Religion, it is religous in the sense that Buddism is.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/11/2012 6:59:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 6:57:10 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 4/11/2012 6:48:01 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 6:46:32 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 4/11/2012 1:02:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 11:40:41 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual
Sufism is about annihilation of the self, facepalm. The only thing you're supposed to
"become" is "aware" of the "Fact" that there is literally nothing in existence except God. Everything else you see in Sufism is a means to that end.

See Attar:

""A lover," said the hoopoe, now their guide,
"Is one in whom all thoughts of Self have died;
Those who renounce the Self deserve that name;
Righteous or sinful, they are all the same!
Your heart is thwarted by the Self's control;

Destroy its hold on you and reach your goal.
Give up this hindrance, give up mortal sight,
For only then can you approach the light.

If you are told: ‘Renounce our Faith', obey!
The Self and Faith must both be tossed away;
Blasphemers call such actions blasphemy --
Tell them that love exceeds mere piety.
Love has no time for blasphemy or faith,
Nor lovers for the Self, that feeble wraith."

You'll find similar statements of annihilation in unity in just about any Sufi's writings you look at.

OK. Fana wrote about this, and it is his idea. Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers. The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations. If you want to see where I put that in the (original) post:

"Sufis argue that all human beings have been conditioned and indoctrinated because everyone's culture makes people predisposed to certain ideas."

Also, if you finished that quotation:

"Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual. This means stripping away the complacent laziness which many of us have, and the removal of the characteristics that modern society has gave us, and challenging the individual to fulfilling their capacity of what they are capable of becoming. "

Please don't make out that I have misunderstood something in such a bold way, because if you misinterpret something or misunderstand something, it makes you sound idiotic if you get it wrong, and childish even if you get it right.


The Fool: Sufi is a religion.

I stopped reading at this point, to be honest. I can't see it picking up from here.

The Fool: well that what it means to be ignorant

Can I ask what made you think Sufism was a religion?

Final paragraph of my blog post:

"One of the main reasons that Sufism is so poorly understood in the Western Community is that it is more like a Buddhist idea than a Christian, or even Islamic one. It is a way to live, rather than a doctrine, or a religion. Anyone seeking to learn it from the outside, myself included, will fail to fully comprehend the whole idea behind it. It involves a passionate search for truth and disposal of all wealth into a second place. It is a truth that transcends normal categories, and becomes subjective to the individual: in the way of learning, and what is learnt. It involves calling human beings to that which they are physically capable, but having to go on a path that we choose for ourselves. The way of the Sufi is difficult, long, and few are unwilling to take this path. It is a progressive, lifelong journey. The fables that contain Sufi teachings, though, challenge the perceptions that each of us have, and thus give us truth that is not available elsewhere. In short, Sufi mystics attempt to live in Truth."
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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4/11/2012 7:00:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 6:59:23 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 6:57:10 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 4/11/2012 6:48:01 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 6:46:32 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 4/11/2012 1:02:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 11:40:41 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual
Sufism is about annihilation of the self, facepalm. The only thing you're supposed to
"become" is "aware" of the "Fact" that there is literally nothing in existence except God. Everything else you see in Sufism is a means to that end.

See Attar:

""A lover," said the hoopoe, now their guide,
"Is one in whom all thoughts of Self have died;
Those who renounce the Self deserve that name;
Righteous or sinful, they are all the same!
Your heart is thwarted by the Self's control;

Destroy its hold on you and reach your goal.
Give up this hindrance, give up mortal sight,
For only then can you approach the light.

If you are told: ‘Renounce our Faith', obey!
The Self and Faith must both be tossed away;
Blasphemers call such actions blasphemy --
Tell them that love exceeds mere piety.
Love has no time for blasphemy or faith,
Nor lovers for the Self, that feeble wraith."

You'll find similar statements of annihilation in unity in just about any Sufi's writings you look at.

OK. Fana wrote about this, and it is his idea. Al-Ghazali and Runi wrote that we should be detatched from the self to work out the answers. The Fana is about the removal of all things that define you, because they are just conformings and indoctrinations. If you want to see where I put that in the (original) post:

"Sufis argue that all human beings have been conditioned and indoctrinated because everyone's culture makes people predisposed to certain ideas."

Also, if you finished that quotation:

"Sufism is about transforming the self, and helping someone to become a new individual. This means stripping away the complacent laziness which many of us have, and the removal of the characteristics that modern society has gave us, and challenging the individual to fulfilling their capacity of what they are capable of becoming. "

Please don't make out that I have misunderstood something in such a bold way, because if you misinterpret something or misunderstand something, it makes you sound idiotic if you get it wrong, and childish even if you get it right.


The Fool: Sufi is a religion.

I stopped reading at this point, to be honest. I can't see it picking up from here.

The Fool: well that what it means to be ignorant

Can I ask what made you think Sufism was a religion?

Final paragraph of my blog post:

"One of the main reasons that Sufism is so poorly understood in the Western Community is that it is more like a Buddhist idea than a Christian, or even Islamic one. It is a way to live, rather than a doctrine, or a religion. Anyone seeking to learn it from the outside, myself included, will fail to fully comprehend the whole idea behind it. It involves a passionate search for truth and disposal of all wealth into a second place. It is a truth that transcends normal categories, and becomes subjective to the individual: in the way of learning, and what is learnt. It involves calling human beings to that which they are physically capable, but having to go on a path that we choose for ourselves. The way of the Sufi is difficult, long, and few are unwilling to take this path. It is a progressive, lifelong journey. The fables that contain Sufi teachings, though, challenge the perceptions that each of us have, and thus give us truth that is not available elsewhere. In short, Sufi mystics attempt to live in Truth."

The Fool: Your Blog Blew. I am basing it on actual Education
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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4/11/2012 7:01:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It was for people who no more about the topic. Maybe someone who has also studies eastern philosophy. I assume Geo has.

The idea is that they start as Religion, it is religous in the sense that Buddism is.

In case you missed this.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/11/2012 7:07:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can I ask what made you think Sufism was a religion?

Final paragraph of my blog post:

"One of the main reasons that Sufism is so poorly understood in the Western Community is that it is more like a Buddhist idea than a Christian, or even Islamic one. It is a way to live, rather than a doctrine, or a religion.

Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism all prescribe ways to live.

Especially Islam, what with the Sharia.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/11/2012 7:48:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 7:07:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Can I ask what made you think Sufism was a religion?

Final paragraph of my blog post:

"One of the main reasons that Sufism is so poorly understood in the Western Community is that it is more like a Buddhist idea than a Christian, or even Islamic one. It is a way to live, rather than a doctrine, or a religion.

Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism all prescribe ways to live.

Especially Islam, what with the Sharia.

Islam and Christianity say "do this, do that" on specific actions in a law sense. Sufism is certainly more specialised to a certain area, e.g. learning the Truth and its way. Of course, I may be wrong here; this area I am not so certain of.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
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4/11/2012 7:49:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 6:59:12 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
It was for people who no more about the topic. Maybe someone who has also studies eastern philosophy. I assume Geo has.

What part? The part where you asked a question? Because question marks signal that.

The idea is that they start as Religion, it is religous in the sense that Buddism is.

Baptism isn't a religion. Proselytising isn't a religion. Sufism isn't a religion.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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4/11/2012 7:55:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 7:49:41 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 6:59:12 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
It was for people who no more about the topic. Maybe someone who has also studies eastern philosophy. I assume Geo has.

What part? The part where you asked a question? Because question marks signal that.

The idea is that they start as Religion, it is religous in the sense that Buddism is.

Baptism isn't a religion. Proselytising isn't a religion. Sufism isn't a religion.

The Fool: ofcourse not Hawlkings of ocourse not. None of it is taken off faith. Is all based off logic and facts. Forgive me I must have been Fooled. <(;D)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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4/11/2012 7:59:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Like your sh!tty blog. <(8^6) Blog on !!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/12/2012 1:32:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 7:48:37 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 7:07:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Can I ask what made you think Sufism was a religion?

Final paragraph of my blog post:

"One of the main reasons that Sufism is so poorly understood in the Western Community is that it is more like a Buddhist idea than a Christian, or even Islamic one. It is a way to live, rather than a doctrine, or a religion.

Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism all prescribe ways to live.

Especially Islam, what with the Sharia.

Islam and Christianity say "do this, do that" on specific actions in a law sense. Sufism is certainly more specialised to a certain area, e.g. learning the Truth and its way.
Sufism is hardly specialized in the sense of either particularized path or unextensive rules, there are several tariqas who all have different prayers in addition to (or in the case of some modern Western "sufis," instead of) the regular Islamic prayers, different rules, and yes, they are quite specific about what you do and don't do-- someone serious in any traditional order is going to have a vastly more regimented life than the average Muslim. Rumi, for example, I think had his followers do at least 5 extra prayers in addition to the 5 usually found in Islam, some of which you would wake up for in the middle of the night. While lay followers were expected to earn a living in most orders, they were never expected to achieve fana, "Serious" followers in many orders had to adopt total monasticism (Contrary, notably, to Muhammad's command "There is no monkery in Islam.")
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/12/2012 1:38:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Now, of course, this doesn't make Sufism legalistic. It's not about fulfilling formal principles, the regimenting of a Sufi follower's lifestyle is a matter of complete and unquestioning obedience to the sheikh; the law be ****ed.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Stephen_Hawkins
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4/12/2012 5:20:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/12/2012 1:32:56 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/11/2012 7:48:37 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/11/2012 7:07:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Can I ask what made you think Sufism was a religion?

Final paragraph of my blog post:

"One of the main reasons that Sufism is so poorly understood in the Western Community is that it is more like a Buddhist idea than a Christian, or even Islamic one. It is a way to live, rather than a doctrine, or a religion.

Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism all prescribe ways to live.

Especially Islam, what with the Sharia.

Islam and Christianity say "do this, do that" on specific actions in a law sense. Sufism is certainly more specialised to a certain area, e.g. learning the Truth and its way.
Sufism is hardly specialized in the sense of either particularized path or unextensive rules, there are several tariqas who all have different prayers in addition to (or in the case of some modern Western "sufis," instead of) the regular Islamic prayers, different rules, and yes, they are quite specific about what you do and don't do-- someone serious in any traditional order is going to have a vastly more regimented life than the average Muslim. Rumi, for example, I think had his followers do at least 5 extra prayers in addition to the 5 usually found in Islam, some of which you would wake up for in the middle of the night. While lay followers were expected to earn a living in most orders, they were never expected to achieve fana, "Serious" followers in many orders had to adopt total monasticism (Contrary, notably, to Muhammad's command "There is no monkery in Islam.")

I don't know why I used the word 'specialised' when I thought it was generalised myself anyway...

And with the additional rules of the lifestyles of the Sufis, that's an interesting point which I haven't looked into much (I didn't expect much variation between the groups on their approaches to Islam), so I will have a look into that, thanks.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/12/2012 5:54:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Sufi aren't more supposed to have a specific way of life than other Muslims. The Shari'a is a way of life for all Muslims. We have rules on how to deal with finances, politics, behavior, and so on. The Sufis are nothing exceptional in this. However, per average follower, I think Sufis are more likely to follow such a spiritual path than other Muslims.

Althoug Sufism is a sect of Islam, I think that a lot of it is based on pure innovation, something that Islam strongly prohibits. I'm not sure if Sufism predates Islam as it was finally established by the Quran, but the term comes from both Greek (sophia, wisdom) and Arabic (soof, wool). The early Arab Sufis wore woolen clothing to resemble Jesus.
Stephen_Hawkins
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4/12/2012 6:13:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/12/2012 5:54:37 AM, Mirza wrote:
The Sufi aren't more supposed to have a specific way of life than other Muslims. The Shari'a is a way of life for all Muslims. We have rules on how to deal with finances, politics, behavior, and so on. The Sufis are nothing exceptional in this. However, per average follower, I think Sufis are more likely to follow such a spiritual path than other Muslims.

Althoug Sufism is a sect of Islam, I think that a lot of it is based on pure innovation, something that Islam strongly prohibits. I'm not sure if Sufism predates Islam as it was finally established by the Quran, but the term comes from both Greek (sophia, wisdom) and Arabic (soof, wool). The early Arab Sufis wore woolen clothing to resemble Jesus.

Sufis were strongest in the ijtihad (if I've spelt it right), so I imagine that's where the innovative past came from. And I'd say it predates it as they were around when Mohammed (saas) was on campaign.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/12/2012 10:41:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/12/2012 5:54:37 AM, Mirza wrote:
The Sufi aren't more supposed to have a specific way of life than other Muslims.
Conference of the Birds by Attar
"One day two dressed as wandering sufies came
Before the courts to lodge a legal claim.
The judge took them aside. ‘This can't be right,
For sufis to provoke a lawyers' fight,'
He said. ‘You wear the robes of resignation,
So what have you to do with litigation?
If you're the men to pay a lawyer's fee,
Off with your sufi clothes immediately!
And if you're sufis as at first I thought,
It's ignorance that brings you to this court.
I'm just a judge, unversed in your affair,
But I'm ashamed to see the clothes you wear;
You should wear women's veils -- that would be less
Dishonest than your present holy dress.'"

Your average Muslim, on the other hand... well, lets just say that one of the main roles of a traditional Islamic scholar is the law. Again, two very different approaches to Islam here. The ulama and the Sufis conflicted quite often.

The Shari'a is a way of life for all Muslims. We have rules on how to deal with finances, politics, behavior, and so on. The Sufis are nothing exceptional in this.
Then why did so many know what being drunk was like? (Not all mind you, "Sober" sufism and "drunk" sufism is a major point of categorizing various sufis, tariqas, etc.)

Besides, Sufis have been put to death for... well, being Sufis, under Islamic legal systems. See Hallaj's "I am the Truth." (Oddly, Bistami didn't get a similar fate for "Glory be to me, how great is my majesty.") That hardly plays up with an account where they are just like any other Muslims.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ahmed.M
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4/15/2012 5:23:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sufism is a Deviation from Prophet Muhammad's (peace and blessings be upon him) teachings. I recommend you to stay away from it.
Stephen_Hawkins
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4/16/2012 5:11:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 7:59:13 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Like your sh!tty blog. <(8^6) Blog on !!

Coolstorybro. Bearing in mind most of what I've said with Rahl has been on the finer parts of the Sufi life, and you said Sufism is a religion, I think you're a level below this discussion. If you want to know what Sufism is, try reading the blog I posted. You may then be able to actually discuss this issue.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...