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Categorical Imperative's and God/atheism

phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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4/19/2012 12:21:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The CI has nothing to do with God. If you read Groundwork I don't recall Kant ever referencing God in making his case for the CI.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/19/2012 11:32:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 12:21:09 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The CI has nothing to do with God. If you read Groundwork I don't recall Kant ever referencing God in making his case for the CI.

Hmmmm, even so, I'd like to hear why an atheist would be bound to do something.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/19/2012 1:47:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

CI exists in the same way logic does -it exists because it exists- not because "God said so." Logic and the CI would exist whether we all exist (including god) or not.

That is.. if you believe an objective morality is possible, of course. It seems like you believe morality requires god and that is why the idea is difficult to grasp.
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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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4/19/2012 1:47:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 12:21:09 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The CI has nothing to do with God. If you read Groundwork I don't recall Kant ever referencing God in making his case for the CI.

I wouldn't say that. The CI was a part of his whole moral philosophy which made use of God.
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popculturepooka
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4/19/2012 1:51:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 1:47:05 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

CI exists in the same way logic does -it exists because it exists- not because "God said so." Logic and the CI would exist whether we all exist (including god) or not.


Nahhhhhhh...
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/19/2012 2:02:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 1:47:05 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

CI exists in the same way logic does -it exists because it exists- not because "God said so." Logic and the CI would exist whether we all exist (including god) or not.

Interesting, so it exists just because it exists? I think that strongly suggests a God. Logic is also different. Logic is necessary to exist, because if it didn't exist, nothing would really exist, because no facts would exist. Though there are arguments from logic for Gods existence.

That is.. if you believe an objective morality is possible, of course. It seems like you believe morality requires god and that is why the idea is difficult to grasp.

Do you believe in objective morality? If so why does it exist?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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4/19/2012 2:29:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 1:47:36 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:21:09 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The CI has nothing to do with God. If you read Groundwork I don't recall Kant ever referencing God in making his case for the CI.

I wouldn't say that. The CI was a part of his whole moral philosophy which made use of God.

Wasn't Kant an agnostic? I just remember reading "Groundwork" and I don't remember him ever invoking God. Please enlighten me.
OMGJustinBieber
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4/19/2012 2:30:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 11:32:27 AM, phantom wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:21:09 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The CI has nothing to do with God. If you read Groundwork I don't recall Kant ever referencing God in making his case for the CI.

Hmmmm, even so, I'd like to hear why an atheist would be bound to do something.

Kant doesn't address this. His goal isn't to convince the 21st century rational egoist to bind himself to the CI, he's speaking to a different audience. Basically, if you want to live in accordance with reason and freedom you follow the CI according to Kant.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/20/2012 1:22:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 2:02:43 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/19/2012 1:47:05 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

CI exists in the same way logic does -it exists because it exists- not because "God said so." Logic and the CI would exist whether we all exist (including god) or not.

Interesting, so it exists just because it exists? I think that strongly suggests a God. Logic is also different. Logic is necessary to exist, because if it didn't exist, nothing would really exist, because no facts would exist. Though there are arguments from logic for Gods existence.

Pff. Elefino. I find it difficult to grasp as well. I don't believe in it.
That is.. if you believe an objective morality is possible, of course. It seems like you believe morality requires god and that is why the idea is difficult to grasp.

Do you believe in objective morality? If so why does it exist?

No.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/20/2012 1:47:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 1:22:32 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/19/2012 2:02:43 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/19/2012 1:47:05 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

CI exists in the same way logic does -it exists because it exists- not because "God said so." Logic and the CI would exist whether we all exist (including god) or not.

Interesting, so it exists just because it exists? I think that strongly suggests a God. Logic is also different. Logic is necessary to exist, because if it didn't exist, nothing would really exist, because no facts would exist. Though there are arguments from logic for Gods existence.

Pff. Elefino. I find it difficult to grasp as well. I don't believe in it.

Oh, I thought you were saying you did believe in the CI.

That is.. if you believe an objective morality is possible, of course. It seems like you believe morality requires god and that is why the idea is difficult to grasp.

Do you believe in objective morality? If so why does it exist?

No.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/20/2012 1:57:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 1:47:08 AM, phantom wrote:
At 4/20/2012 1:22:32 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/19/2012 2:02:43 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/19/2012 1:47:05 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

CI exists in the same way logic does -it exists because it exists- not because "God said so." Logic and the CI would exist whether we all exist (including god) or not.

Interesting, so it exists just because it exists? I think that strongly suggests a God. Logic is also different. Logic is necessary to exist, because if it didn't exist, nothing would really exist, because no facts would exist. Though there are arguments from logic for Gods existence.

Pff. Elefino. I find it difficult to grasp as well. I don't believe in it.

Oh, I thought you were saying you did believe in the CI.

That is.. if you believe an objective morality is possible, of course. It seems like you believe morality requires god and that is why the idea is difficult to grasp.

Do you believe in objective morality? If so why does it exist?

No.

Nah, I was just making an attempt at explaining it. Obviously pooka does not agree lol
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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4/20/2012 8:58:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
CI depends only on logic being justified. Whether God is necessary for logic to exist is another topic entirely. Also, Ignosticism.
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wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/21/2012 6:54:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist?

Gods don't have anything to do with it.

Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis?

If you can manage it with metaphysics, you can manage it without.
If you can't manage it without metaphysics, then you can't manage it with.

I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist.

Then you also don't see any reason to think they would exist if gods did exist.

Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world.

Then it also requires something more than anything derived from the magic world.

Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

Theism assumed, likewise.
WxGeo
Posts: 134
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4/22/2012 10:56:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 1:47:05 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

CI exists in the same way logic does -it exists because it exists- not because "God said so." Logic and the CI would exist whether we all exist (including god) or not.

That is.. if you believe an objective morality is possible, of course. It seems like you believe morality requires god and that is why the idea is difficult to grasp.

See my debate with wiploc, necessary abstractions are more plausibly grounded in God's necessity.
WxGeo
WxGeo
Posts: 134
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4/22/2012 12:36:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 12:21:09 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The CI has nothing to do with God. If you read Groundwork I don't recall Kant ever referencing God in making his case for the CI.

You're right, Kant never referenced God but he made an insufficient ontological ground. He advertised it as the golden rule but at best left us with a hypothetical and egotistical, ground for morals, not categorical.

Both Kierkegaard & Schopenhauer gave a debilitating critique of Kantian thought in CI.

See,

http://en.wikipedia.org...
WxGeo
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/22/2012 11:49:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 8:58:51 AM, M.Torres wrote:
CI depends only on logic being justified. Whether God is necessary for logic to exist is another topic entirely. Also, Ignosticism.

Not necessarily. I mean you could say that CI would be the only rationally justified ethics or that any ethics would have to include CI in order to be logically consistent but that's a different matter then whether CI is *actually* justified. All we have to do is drop the presupposition to objective morality and CI would fall apart, you have to believe an ethics is possible first it would seem.
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/22/2012 1:45:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Oi spinko. Stop bumping my old philosophy posts. It's making me look even more noobish than I am.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/22/2012 1:48:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 2:29:11 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 4/19/2012 1:47:36 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:21:09 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The CI has nothing to do with God. If you read Groundwork I don't recall Kant ever referencing God in making his case for the CI.

I wouldn't say that. The CI was a part of his whole moral philosophy which made use of God.

Wasn't Kant an agnostic? I just remember reading "Groundwork" and I don't remember him ever invoking God. Please enlighten me.

He did mention God. He even stated we should apply our own moral standards to him to evaluate whether he was moral. He didn't reference him often though.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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9/22/2012 2:13:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

Some have likened Kant's Categorical Imperative to the Golden Rule, while Kant rejected this, there are remarkable similarities. So it seems that the basis of the CI is mutual benefit, and societal cohesion to some degree.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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9/22/2012 5:46:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

What does god have to do with it? Why can we have oughts with god but not without god?
phantom
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9/22/2012 6:30:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 5:46:32 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/19/2012 12:17:39 AM, phantom wrote:
Can categorical imperatives exist if God does not exist? Or do they require some non-natural metaphysical basis? I've been pondering it, and I see no reason to believe they could exist if God did not exist. Being bound to do something requires something more than anything derived from a natural world. Atheism assumed, what reasons exist that would suggest that I should be required to do anything?

What does god have to do with it? Why can we have oughts with god but not without god?

Idk, ask myself 5 months ago.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)