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Anarchism and Corporations

Deathbeforedishonour
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6/4/2012 2:02:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
OK so, I am having problems with picturing corporations within anarchy. For centuries big time corporations have had just as bad of a track record as the state. They are known for exploitation, slavery, and even murder. And I personally can't see anyway of allowing them inside of an anarchist society because it would be like having another state. Thoughts? I would really like to hear from other anarchists on this one.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/4/2012 2:12:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's not a matter of an Anarchy allowing corporations but corporations allowing an Anarchy.

I've never heard of an Anarcho-Corporatist. So yeeeeah...
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Deathbeforedishonour
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6/4/2012 2:21:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 2:12:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
It's not a matter of an Anarchy allowing corporations but corporations allowing an Anarchy.

I've never heard of an Anarcho-Corporatist. So yeeeeah...

My point is that Anarcho-Capitalism would mean that corporations would exist the same as they are today, and that they would be free to do exactly what they please. I am starting to have a Anarcho-Syndicalist/communist veiw of corporations. They seem like they would lead society back to another government, another state, and more tyrrany.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
FREEDO
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6/4/2012 3:50:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 2:21:55 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:12:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
It's not a matter of an Anarchy allowing corporations but corporations allowing an Anarchy.

I've never heard of an Anarcho-Corporatist. So yeeeeah...

My point is that Anarcho-Capitalism would mean that corporations would exist the same as they are today, and that they would be free to do exactly what they please. I am starting to have a Anarcho-Syndicalist/communist veiw of corporations. They seem like they would lead society back to another government, another state, and more tyrrany.

Do you know of any Anarcho-Capitalists who believe this? I surely don't. Corporations, as they exist today, are impossible without the state. The state is run by whoever has the most money and laws are thus written to favor the same.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/4/2012 4:06:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do you know of any Anarcho-Capitalists who believe this? I surely don't. Corporations, as they exist today, are impossible without the state. The state is run by whoever has the most money and laws are thus written to favor the same.

Indeed!^
TheAsylum
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/4/2012 8:56:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 2:21:55 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:12:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
It's not a matter of an Anarchy allowing corporations but corporations allowing an Anarchy.

I've never heard of an Anarcho-Corporatist. So yeeeeah...

My point is that Anarcho-Capitalism would mean that corporations would exist the same as they are today, and that they would be free to do exactly what they please. I am starting to have a Anarcho-Syndicalist/communist veiw of corporations. They seem like they would lead society back to another government, another state, and more tyrrany.

The current picture of corporations is not one that would be pained by a free market obviously. Tariffs, highway subsidies, intellectual property laws, etc. all serve to inflate the size of the largest corporations. Whether they would be able to grow to current sizes under AnCapitalism or not is a matter up for debate.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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: I disagree.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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6/4/2012 9:08:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 8:56:42 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:21:55 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:12:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
It's not a matter of an Anarchy allowing corporations but corporations allowing an Anarchy.

I've never heard of an Anarcho-Corporatist. So yeeeeah...

My point is that Anarcho-Capitalism would mean that corporations would exist the same as they are today, and that they would be free to do exactly what they please. I am starting to have a Anarcho-Syndicalist/communist veiw of corporations. They seem like they would lead society back to another government, another state, and more tyrrany.

The current picture of corporations is not one that would be pained by a free market obviously. Tariffs, highway subsidies, intellectual property laws, etc. all serve to inflate the size of the largest corporations. Whether they would be able to grow to current sizes under AnCapitalism or not is a matter up for debate.

Why isn't it up for debate?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/4/2012 9:12:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 9:08:59 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 6/4/2012 8:56:42 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:21:55 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:12:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
It's not a matter of an Anarchy allowing corporations but corporations allowing an Anarchy.

I've never heard of an Anarcho-Corporatist. So yeeeeah...

My point is that Anarcho-Capitalism would mean that corporations would exist the same as they are today, and that they would be free to do exactly what they please. I am starting to have a Anarcho-Syndicalist/communist veiw of corporations. They seem like they would lead society back to another government, another state, and more tyrrany.

The current picture of corporations is not one that would be pained by a free market obviously. Tariffs, highway subsidies, intellectual property laws, etc. all serve to inflate the size of the largest corporations. Whether they would be able to grow to current sizes under AnCapitalism or not is a matter up for debate.

Why isn't it up for debate?

Sorry, typo on my part. I meant to say it still IS a matter up for debate.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/4/2012 10:21:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
A corporation is a government. With a good enough marketing gimmick, a corporation can gain the financial influence to become a state. Indeed, this is how states get formed.

The problem is that most an-caps make a special pleading fallacy in regard to the state. The state is simply a financial institution with a large enough influence to meddle heavily with the economy.

The world is in a state of anarchy, but those who have been fooled by those who claim to have authority scratch their heads when I say this.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/4/2012 10:26:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
As long as there are complacent, lazy, collective minded, and/or fearful people, there will be a state.

Anarcho-idealists are just as out of touch with the way things are as communists, and the anarchists who say things that make it appear that tbey seem to understand anarchy are woefully inept at getting the non-initiated to understand.

You want to see anarchy? Live it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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6/4/2012 10:45:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 8:56:42 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:21:55 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:12:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
It's not a matter of an Anarchy allowing corporations but corporations allowing an Anarchy.

I've never heard of an Anarcho-Corporatist. So yeeeeah...

My point is that Anarcho-Capitalism would mean that corporations would exist the same as they are today, and that they would be free to do exactly what they please. I am starting to have a Anarcho-Syndicalist/communist veiw of corporations. They seem like they would lead society back to another government, another state, and more tyrrany.

The current picture of corporations is not one that would be pained by a free market obviously. Tariffs, highway subsidies, intellectual property laws, etc. all serve to inflate the size of the largest corporations. Whether they would be able to grow to current sizes under AnCapitalism or not is a matter up for debate.

Problem is that it may be inflated, but even then if all these things were taken away they would most likely be still really big. Think about it most of American companies have stores,mines, or factories all over the world. They are all really self-sufficient and powerful. If they will massacre people just like the state if the employees stop working then what would happen if they were the people who had control of most of the resources it seems they would totally be power hungry enough to gain involuntary control over the people.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/4/2012 11:01:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 10:45:30 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 8:56:42 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:21:55 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:12:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
It's not a matter of an Anarchy allowing corporations but corporations allowing an Anarchy.

I've never heard of an Anarcho-Corporatist. So yeeeeah...

My point is that Anarcho-Capitalism would mean that corporations would exist the same as they are today, and that they would be free to do exactly what they please. I am starting to have a Anarcho-Syndicalist/communist veiw of corporations. They seem like they would lead society back to another government, another state, and more tyrrany.

The current picture of corporations is not one that would be pained by a free market obviously. Tariffs, highway subsidies, intellectual property laws, etc. all serve to inflate the size of the largest corporations. Whether they would be able to grow to current sizes under AnCapitalism or not is a matter up for debate.

Problem is that it may be inflated, but even then if all these things were taken away they would most likely be still really big. Think about it most of American companies have stores,mines, or factories all over the world. They are all really self-sufficient and powerful. If they will massacre people just like the state if the employees stop working then what would happen if they were the people who had control of most of the resources it seems they would totally be power hungry enough to gain involuntary control over the people.

Rothbard wrote an article (can't fine it atm) supporting the idea of worker syndicalist takeover of corporations which are primarily financed through the State. Therefore, if Coca-Cola got to its size primarily through aid from the State, he would support the workers to take over the means of production since they're the closest one could come to to homesteading the claim.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/4/2012 11:01:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 10:26:08 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
As long as there are complacent, lazy, collective minded, and/or fearful people, there will be a state.

Anarcho-idealists are just as out of touch with the way things are as communists, and the anarchists who say things that make it appear that tbey seem to understand anarchy are woefully inept at getting the non-initiated to understand.

You want to see anarchy? Live it.

Shut up Meg.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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6/4/2012 11:19:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 11:01:17 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 10:45:30 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 8:56:42 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:21:55 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 2:12:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
It's not a matter of an Anarchy allowing corporations but corporations allowing an Anarchy.

I've never heard of an Anarcho-Corporatist. So yeeeeah...

My point is that Anarcho-Capitalism would mean that corporations would exist the same as they are today, and that they would be free to do exactly what they please. I am starting to have a Anarcho-Syndicalist/communist veiw of corporations. They seem like they would lead society back to another government, another state, and more tyrrany.

The current picture of corporations is not one that would be pained by a free market obviously. Tariffs, highway subsidies, intellectual property laws, etc. all serve to inflate the size of the largest corporations. Whether they would be able to grow to current sizes under AnCapitalism or not is a matter up for debate.

Problem is that it may be inflated, but even then if all these things were taken away they would most likely be still really big. Think about it most of American companies have stores,mines, or factories all over the world. They are all really self-sufficient and powerful. If they will massacre people just like the state if the employees stop working then what would happen if they were the people who had control of most of the resources it seems they would totally be power hungry enough to gain involuntary control over the people.

Rothbard wrote an article (can't fine it atm) supporting the idea of worker syndicalist takeover of corporations which are primarily financed through the State. Therefore, if Coca-Cola got to its size primarily through aid from the State, he would support the workers to take over the means of production since they're the closest one could come to to homesteading the claim.

That seems interesting..do you remember what site or book that could have been in?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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6/4/2012 11:22:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 11:01:34 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 10:26:08 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
As long as there are complacent, lazy, collective minded, and/or fearful people, there will be a state.

Anarcho-idealists are just as out of touch with the way things are as communists, and the anarchists who say things that make it appear that tbey seem to understand anarchy are woefully inept at getting the non-initiated to understand.

You want to see anarchy? Live it.

Shut up Meg.

Meg griffin?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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6/4/2012 11:27:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 10:26:08 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
As long as there are complacent, lazy, collective minded, and/or fearful people, there will be a state.

Anarcho-idealists are just as out of touch with the way things are as communists, and the anarchists who say things that make it appear that tbey seem to understand anarchy are woefully inept at getting the non-initiated to understand.

You want to see anarchy? Live it.
Shut up Meg!
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/4/2012 11:44:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 11:22:00 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 6/4/2012 11:01:34 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 10:26:08 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
As long as there are complacent, lazy, collective minded, and/or fearful people, there will be a state.

Anarcho-idealists are just as out of touch with the way things are as communists, and the anarchists who say things that make it appear that tbey seem to understand anarchy are woefully inept at getting the non-initiated to understand.

You want to see anarchy? Live it.

Shut up Meg.

Meg griffin?

Cosmic is the Meg Griffin of anarchists.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/4/2012 11:45:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 11:19:36 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 11:01:17 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 10:45:30 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:

Problem is that it may be inflated, but even then if all these things were taken away they would most likely be still really big. Think about it most of American companies have stores,mines, or factories all over the world. They are all really self-sufficient and powerful. If they will massacre people just like the state if the employees stop working then what would happen if they were the people who had control of most of the resources it seems they would totally be power hungry enough to gain involuntary control over the people.

Rothbard wrote an article (can't fine it atm) supporting the idea of worker syndicalist takeover of corporations which are primarily financed through the State. Therefore, if Coca-Cola got to its size primarily through aid from the State, he would support the workers to take over the means of production since they're the closest one could come to to homesteading the claim.

That seems interesting..do you remember what site or book that could have been in?

You might be able to find it on Mises but I can't seem to find it atm.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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6/4/2012 11:54:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 11:44:52 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 11:22:00 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 6/4/2012 11:01:34 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 10:26:08 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
As long as there are complacent, lazy, collective minded, and/or fearful people, there will be a state.

Anarcho-idealists are just as out of touch with the way things are as communists, and the anarchists who say things that make it appear that tbey seem to understand anarchy are woefully inept at getting the non-initiated to understand.

You want to see anarchy? Live it.

Shut up Meg.

Meg griffin?

Cosmic is the Meg Griffin of anarchists.

Agreed. It's hard to take him seriously..
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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6/4/2012 11:55:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 11:45:41 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 11:19:36 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 6/4/2012 11:01:17 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/4/2012 10:45:30 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:

Problem is that it may be inflated, but even then if all these things were taken away they would most likely be still really big. Think about it most of American companies have stores,mines, or factories all over the world. They are all really self-sufficient and powerful. If they will massacre people just like the state if the employees stop working then what would happen if they were the people who had control of most of the resources it seems they would totally be power hungry enough to gain involuntary control over the people.

Rothbard wrote an article (can't fine it atm) supporting the idea of worker syndicalist takeover of corporations which are primarily financed through the State. Therefore, if Coca-Cola got to its size primarily through aid from the State, he would support the workers to take over the means of production since they're the closest one could come to to homesteading the claim.

That seems interesting..do you remember what site or book that could have been in?

You might be able to find it on Mises but I can't seem to find it atm.

Thanks. lol
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/4/2012 12:27:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You can call me the "Meg Griffin" of anarchists all you want, but I'm still the only real anarchist on this site.

If you are really an anarchist, stop cooperating with tbe state. Throw away your IDs, and survive off the black market.

The anarchists herr don't like me because I'm the real deal, and they are a bunch of wannabe Rothbard fellating dipshyts who don't know what the hell they are talking about.

I do. What I say is true. If you want to know about anarchy, quit talking to a bunch of housed up middle class teenagers who cooperate with the state all the time while talking bullshyt.

That's what it amounts to, bullshyt.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/4/2012 12:43:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The conception an anarcho-idealist has about anarchy, economics, etc. Is borderline retarded, and the fact that I say so while maintaining that I am an anarchist threatens their comfort level. Tbey would rather masturbate than truly augment tbeir understanding of the matter.

Fools and cowards who lack discernment. You don't take me seriously now, but one day you'll pull your heads out of your arses and see that I'm not as ill informed as you think I am. May you choke on your own ignorance.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/4/2012 6:40:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ya'll ain't anarchists. You're whiners who can't accept the fact that your conception of anarchy lacks the marketing power to be successful, and lets face it, it requires it.

The state has enough marketing power to give it legitimacy in the minds of those who acknowledge it and give it influence. As much as people claim otherwise, they don't want absolute freedom, and the state is the inevitable result of this. THE STATE IS A PRODUCT OF CAPITALISM. All states are. In a capitalistic society(which all are, despite what the ignorant say about communism and older ways of operating), and in capitalism, businesses are going to effect eachother. The state is just a business, and like any business, it makes deals with other businesses.

My lifestyle is a choice, and I could play along to another game... but I still assert that ya'll are full of shyt.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/4/2012 6:46:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And like I said, it is apparent that you all make a special pleading fallacy for the state. You don't really want capitalism to run free, you want any business that gets to big to be torn down.... yet you aren't doing a thing to put it out of business, and you are supporting it.

I don't take from the government, but I do my best to avoid it. That is a lifestyle choice. Ya'll don't even try to do something, which is why I say you are phony.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Stephen_Hawkins
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6/5/2012 6:52:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Meg Griffin in the newest Family Guys was the most street-smart intellectually balanced person with a grasp of sociology in the newer episodes so...yeah...
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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DetectableNinja
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6/5/2012 7:37:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 12:27:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
You can call me the "Meg Griffin" of anarchists all you want, but I'm still the only real anarchist on this site.

If you are really an anarchist, stop cooperating with tbe state. Throw away your IDs, and survive off the black market.

The anarchists herr don't like me because I'm the real deal, and they are a bunch of wannabe Rothbard fellating dipshyts who don't know what the hell they are talking about.

I do. What I say is true. If you want to know about anarchy, quit talking to a bunch of housed up middle class teenagers who cooperate with the state all the time while talking bullshyt.

That's what it amounts to, bullshyt.

Oh sh1t, man.

You got all of us totally pinned down. Yep. You know exactly what we're like and how we live. Bravo!
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus