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Very difficult for an atheist to remain pure

dattaswami
Posts: 322
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6/15/2012 10:07:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is very difficult if you say that an atheist can also remain pure. The reason is that one day or other, the atheist will think about the ultimate in following justice. In his mind, certainly , the coming question will be "what is the ultimate benefit for me if i follow the justice and what is the ultimate loss to me if i do injustice in an undetectable way?" He will think that since God is absent, there is none to reward him for following the justice and there is none to punish him for doing the injustice in hidden way.

If the injustice is not done in the hidden way, there may be punishment in this world by the court of law. If you can escape the punishment here by doing the injustice in talented hidden way, there is materialistic benefit that promotes your enjoyment in this world. The final conclusion will be to do sin in undetectable way so that you can escape the ultimate punishment here and at the same time enjoy the materialistic benefit of the sin in this world.

You can propagate the justice through your speech everywhere so that the social balance is maintained. If the social balance is not maintained, your enjoyment here also gets disturbed. Therefore, maintain the social balance to have your personnel enjoyment without any disturbance. Hence, go on influencing everybody through speech to follow justice.

Thus, everybody wants to maintain the social balance with selfish motive only and not for the sake of God since God does not exist. Hence, atheism will lead to social chaos one day or other. In the case of theism, there is God to reward you for following the justice. Even if you do the sin in hidden way, the omniscient God will detect and punish you here or the upper world. The religion may be defective due to certain blind and foolish customs and traditions. But, the religion is far better than the atheism because the religion provides the golden theism to control the sin and maintain the social balance.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/15/2012 10:09:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/15/2012 10:07:34 PM, dattaswami wrote:
It is very difficult if you say that an atheist can also remain pure. The reason is that one day or other, the atheist will think about the ultimate in following justice. In his mind, certainly , the coming question will be "what is the ultimate benefit for me if i follow the justice and what is the ultimate loss to me if i do injustice in an undetectable way?" He will think that since God is absent, there is none to reward him for following the justice and there is none to punish him for doing the injustice in hidden way.

If the injustice is not done in the hidden way, there may be punishment in this world by the court of law. If you can escape the punishment here by doing the injustice in talented hidden way, there is materialistic benefit that promotes your enjoyment in this world. The final conclusion will be to do sin in undetectable way so that you can escape the ultimate punishment here and at the same time enjoy the materialistic benefit of the sin in this world.

You can propagate the justice through your speech everywhere so that the social balance is maintained. If the social balance is not maintained, your enjoyment here also gets disturbed. Therefore, maintain the social balance to have your personnel enjoyment without any disturbance. Hence, go on influencing everybody through speech to follow justice.

Thus, everybody wants to maintain the social balance with selfish motive only and not for the sake of God since God does not exist. Hence, atheism will lead to social chaos one day or other. In the case of theism, there is God to reward you for following the justice. Even if you do the sin in hidden way, the omniscient God will detect and punish you here or the upper world. The religion may be defective due to certain blind and foolish customs and traditions. But, the religion is far better than the atheism because the religion provides the golden theism to control the sin and maintain the social balance.

What a horrid view of human existence. From your perspective, all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment.

It must be very hard for you sleep at night.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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6/16/2012 1:55:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 1:04:38 AM, Aayu wrote:
What is 'justice' according to you?

The Fool: prima facie I must say its a "word" a physical symbol, why what do you think it is.?
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Aayu
Posts: 65
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6/16/2012 2:06:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 1:55:05 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 6/16/2012 1:04:38 AM, Aayu wrote:
What is 'justice' according to you?

The Fool: prima facie I must say its a "word" a physical symbol, why what do you think it is.?

A word? What does it mean???

I asked the question because the usage of the word in the OP is kind of void. Justice can imply doing something fairly and reasonably. (That's what I relate it with) Using your power to yield equal benefits to everyone, regardless of their social strature.

Why would yielding 'unfair' benefits to anyone give you materialistic benefits? What is 'unfair' anyway? Why would using your power to help somebody out be anyway related to the 'justness' of the action?
TheOrator
Posts: 172
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6/16/2012 8:07:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Theist: Adheres to morals because he doesn't want to be punished
Atheist: Adheres to morals becasue it's the right thing to do.

Which is the more pure?
My legend begins in the 12th century
dattaswami
Posts: 322
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6/16/2012 8:18:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Main reason:
There is none to reward an atheist for following the justice and there is none to punish him for doing the injustice in hidden way.

If the injustice is not done in the hidden way, there may be punishment in this world by the court of law.

If you can escape the punishment here by doing the injustice in talented hidden way, there is materialistic benefit that promotes your enjoyment in this world.

The final conclusion will be to do sin in undetectable way so that you can escape the ultimate punishment here

and at the same time enjoy the materialistic benefit of the sin in this world.

At 6/15/2012 10:09:55 PM, Wnope wrote:
What a horrid view of human existence. From your perspective, all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment.

It must be very hard for you sleep at night.
TheOrator
Posts: 172
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6/16/2012 8:23:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 8:18:26 AM, dattaswami wrote:
Main reason:
There is none to reward an atheist for following the justice and there is none to punish him for doing the injustice in hidden way.

If the injustice is not done in the hidden way, there may be punishment in this world by the court of law.

If you can escape the punishment here by doing the injustice in talented hidden way, there is materialistic benefit that promotes your enjoyment in this world.

The final conclusion will be to do sin in undetectable way so that you can escape the ultimate punishment here

and at the same time enjoy the materialistic benefit of the sin in this world.

The reward for an athiest would simply be knowing that you did right by following morally (or in this case "justice" based) correct actions. However, the "punishment" you feel we can escape isn't actually that easy to get around. Regardless though, your basis in assuming this statement is false, as we must first assume that all athiests will only work to benefit themselves (Ironically I'm an egoist, but that kind of reinforces the point if you know about that specific moral philosophy) when they are not faced with any punishment, which you cannot proved.
My legend begins in the 12th century
Stephen_Hawkins
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6/16/2012 8:24:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can I point out that if we can get around God, then you're stating that we should be able to do whatever we want provided this. Atheists generally say the opposite. So yes.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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6/16/2012 11:48:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 2:06:54 AM, Aayu wrote:
At 6/16/2012 1:55:05 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 6/16/2012 1:04:38 AM, Aayu wrote:
What is 'justice' according to you?

The Fool: prima facie I must say its a "word" a physical symbol, why what do you think it is.?

A word? What does it mean???

I asked the question because the usage of the word in the OP is kind of void. Justice can imply doing something fairly and reasonably. (That's what I relate it with) Using your power to yield equal benefits to everyone, regardless of their social strature.

The Fook: So I am asking what the physical symbol 'justice' mean to you?

Why would yielding 'unfair' benefits to anyone give you materialistic benefits? What is 'unfair' anyway? Why would using your power to help somebody out be anyway related to the 'justness' of the action?

The Fool: right but does it make sense have a conversation about 'justice' if we have not calliberated the idea we use the 'word' Justiced to refer to. If we have to ask what the word 'justice' means to somebody, then the 'Word' is useless for discussion about it. So we should state the 'ideas' we use 'justice' to refer too and re-appropriate the word, so it means the same. If a langauge is for communication why use 'words' that we have to ask the question of what does it mean to you??? .Ever!!! . we make it should like there is X=the physical symbol I=the idea of justice in our mind that is being symbolized.

There seems to be a fallacy that there is this other thing y=this other Mystical ghost 'justice' which is not the 'word' nor the 'idea' but this other thing.
Is there really this other thing???
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
dattaswami
Posts: 322
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6/16/2012 11:54:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Some people say that if the punishment given in the hell is in their memory, they will not repeat the sin. This is not correct because the thief punished in the police station becomes good for sometime, but, again steals due to the environment and circumstances. He remembers the punishment, but, still the circumstantial influence overcomes it. All the previous lives and the stay in the hell are forgotten by the soul due to the will of God only because God wants to give a fresh mind to the soul in the new life.

The punishment in the hell has its temporary effect in the sub-conscious state due to which only, the children behave good and pure in their childhood. As they grow, they are influenced by the external environment and the internal hidden thoughts (Smaskaras), which were temporarily suppressed by the punishments in the hell. With the strength of the environmental influence, these hidden ideas become strong and project, directing the actions of the soul in the new life.

The enjoyment & sufferance on the earth are a proof for enjoyments & punishments in the heaven & hell.
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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6/16/2012 11:55:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/15/2012 10:09:55 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/15/2012 10:07:34 PM, dattaswami wrote:
stuff

What a horrid view of human existence. From your perspective, all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment.


If you'd worked with the people I have, you would have fewer qualms about the bolded statement.

All humans are bastards, but most people, most of the time, have ulterior motives to not act on those urges.

*slaps Rousseau right across his Noble Savage*
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/16/2012 4:33:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 11:55:02 AM, Chrysippus wrote:
At 6/15/2012 10:09:55 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/15/2012 10:07:34 PM, dattaswami wrote:
stuff

What a horrid view of human existence. From your perspective, all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment.


If you'd worked with the people I have, you would have fewer qualms about the bolded statement.

All humans are bastards, but most people, most of the time, have ulterior motives to not act on those urges.

*slaps Rousseau right across his Noble Savage*

A vast majority of bastards aren't sociopaths. Sociopathy hits at most 4% of the population.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/16/2012 4:53:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 8:18:26 AM, dattaswami wrote:
Main reason:
There is none to reward an atheist for following the justice and there is none to punish him for doing the injustice in hidden way.

If the injustice is not done in the hidden way, there may be punishment in this world by the court of law.

If you can escape the punishment here by doing the injustice in talented hidden way, there is materialistic benefit that promotes your enjoyment in this world.

The final conclusion will be to do sin in undetectable way so that you can escape the ultimate punishment here

and at the same time enjoy the materialistic benefit of the sin in this world.




At 6/15/2012 10:09:55 PM, Wnope wrote:
What a horrid view of human existence. From your perspective, all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment.

It must be very hard for you sleep at night.

You may want to brush up on your neurology. For us non-sociopaths, we do experience rewards and punishment for moral actions, but they are self-imposed.

God doesn't impose guilt on humans. It's a neurological phenomena.

If you are right, all atheists should be complete sociopaths killing and stealing as long as it doesn't effect their self-interest.

If I'm right, the violence and crime we see from individuals will be dependent not on some ontological stance but instead on base emotional reactions.

That is, if a child grows up in a family where physical violence is seen as a proper response to someone mouthing off, belief in god will have relatively little to no effect on whether the child grows up believing violence is a proper moral reaction.

Now, go look at the statistics for criminals, come back, and we'll see how much of a predictor religion is for ethical behavoir versus someone's base moral reactions which are engrained during development.

Your conclusion is a fairy tale that is not supported by sociological statistics, neuroscience, biology, or even basic logic. It depicts all humans as monsters in need of constant regulation.

Mine is a description of human psychology. It depicts humans as biological organisms with highly evolved brains that are geared towards maximizing an individual's survival by allowing him to better fit into the moral fabric of whatever group he/she is born into.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/16/2012 4:55:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm Atheist. I'm pretty sure that I am more "morally pure" than most theists. I don't use drugs, alcohol, steal, rape, murder, etc.

Why? I think Justice in itself is worthy of pursuit. The thing holding me back from becoming a monster is not the notion that there might be someone who will punish me if I do, but rather that I have a natural inclination to act in a just manner.

I'd also like to note that throughout history, theists have committed horrendous acts in the name of religion. The Crusades, Inquisition, jihad, and the rape and destruction of Buddhists at the hands of Hindus come into mind.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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6/16/2012 5:27:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 8:07:11 AM, TheOrator wrote:
Theist: Adheres to morals because he doesn't want to be punished
Atheist: Adheres to morals becasue it's the right thing to do.

Which is the more pure?

If you honestly think that theists only want to be moral to avoid punishment, then you are either a fool or you do not know any theists.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
TheOrator
Posts: 172
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6/16/2012 6:04:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 5:27:50 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 8:07:11 AM, TheOrator wrote:
Theist: Adheres to morals because he doesn't want to be punished
Atheist: Adheres to morals becasue it's the right thing to do.

Which is the more pure?

If you honestly think that theists only want to be moral to avoid punishment, then you are either a fool or you do not know any theists.

Nice assumption. I live in the Bible Belt, I know theists, and I'm not a fool, however I wasn't referring to it being the only reason, although I know it looks that way. However, (and my former pastor and my friend who's looking to become a pastor agree witht this) the main reason for following God's commands (those normally being referred to as the morraly correct thing to do by theists) is a combination of A.) the reward of an eternal life in Heaven and B.) The threat of an eternal life in Hell. However, and this was my second point, and atheist has no divine reason - threat or reward - to live a moral life.
My legend begins in the 12th century
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/16/2012 8:52:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In his mind, certainly , the coming question will be "what is the ultimate benefit for me if i follow the justice and what is the ultimate loss to me if i do injustice in an undetectable way?
And it will be just that he will receive the results of his actions, including his decision to pretend he is omniscient about what other people will or will not detect.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
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6/16/2012 9:47:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/15/2012 10:09:55 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/15/2012 10:07:34 PM, dattaswami wrote:
It is very difficult if you say that an atheist can also remain pure. The reason is that one day or other, the atheist will think about the ultimate in following justice. In his mind, certainly , the coming question will be "what is the ultimate benefit for me if i follow the justice and what is the ultimate loss to me if i do injustice in an undetectable way?" He will think that since God is absent, there is none to reward him for following the justice and there is none to punish him for doing the injustice in hidden way.

If the injustice is not done in the hidden way, there may be punishment in this world by the court of law. If you can escape the punishment here by doing the injustice in talented hidden way, there is materialistic benefit that promotes your enjoyment in this world. The final conclusion will be to do sin in undetectable way so that you can escape the ultimate punishment here and at the same time enjoy the materialistic benefit of the sin in this world.

You can propagate the justice through your speech everywhere so that the social balance is maintained. If the social balance is not maintained, your enjoyment here also gets disturbed. Therefore, maintain the social balance to have your personnel enjoyment without any disturbance. Hence, go on influencing everybody through speech to follow justice.

Thus, everybody wants to maintain the social balance with selfish motive only and not for the sake of God since God does not exist. Hence, atheism will lead to social chaos one day or other. In the case of theism, there is God to reward you for following the justice. Even if you do the sin in hidden way, the omniscient God will detect and punish you here or the upper world. The religion may be defective due to certain blind and foolish customs and traditions. But, the religion is far better than the atheism because the religion provides the golden theism to control the sin and maintain the social balance.

What a horrid view of human existence. From your perspective, all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment.

It must be very hard for you sleep at night.

"all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment."

Yep, he has it pretty much spot on. If I knew nothing I did mattered, I would be a very different person. I would take advantage any way I could if I could do it without anyone knowing. Why should I not? What they don't know doesn't hurt them. Know a persons weakness and use it to your advantage. It is my belief in god that draws the line between good business tactics and being just pure evil.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
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6/16/2012 9:57:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 9:53:27 PM, FREEDO wrote:
God is a golden nipple and it is good to do evil.

Go do evil, I want you to. So you don't pollute my next life with your vile smut.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Ragnar_Rahl
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6/16/2012 10:08:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If I knew nothing I did mattered
If God is omnipotent, nothing you do matters, God gets whatever the **** he wants no matter what.

If instead of omnipotence, you have free will; everything you do matters-- it affects your life.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/16/2012 10:35:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 9:47:56 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 6/15/2012 10:09:55 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/15/2012 10:07:34 PM, dattaswami wrote:
It is very difficult if you say that an atheist can also remain pure. The reason is that one day or other, the atheist will think about the ultimate in following justice. In his mind, certainly , the coming question will be "what is the ultimate benefit for me if i follow the justice and what is the ultimate loss to me if i do injustice in an undetectable way?" He will think that since God is absent, there is none to reward him for following the justice and there is none to punish him for doing the injustice in hidden way.

If the injustice is not done in the hidden way, there may be punishment in this world by the court of law. If you can escape the punishment here by doing the injustice in talented hidden way, there is materialistic benefit that promotes your enjoyment in this world. The final conclusion will be to do sin in undetectable way so that you can escape the ultimate punishment here and at the same time enjoy the materialistic benefit of the sin in this world.

You can propagate the justice through your speech everywhere so that the social balance is maintained. If the social balance is not maintained, your enjoyment here also gets disturbed. Therefore, maintain the social balance to have your personnel enjoyment without any disturbance. Hence, go on influencing everybody through speech to follow justice.

Thus, everybody wants to maintain the social balance with selfish motive only and not for the sake of God since God does not exist. Hence, atheism will lead to social chaos one day or other. In the case of theism, there is God to reward you for following the justice. Even if you do the sin in hidden way, the omniscient God will detect and punish you here or the upper world. The religion may be defective due to certain blind and foolish customs and traditions. But, the religion is far better than the atheism because the religion provides the golden theism to control the sin and maintain the social balance.

What a horrid view of human existence. From your perspective, all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment.

It must be very hard for you sleep at night.

"all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment."


Yep, he has it pretty much spot on. If I knew nothing I did mattered, I would be a very different person. I would take advantage any way I could if I could do it without anyone knowing. Why should I not? What they don't know doesn't hurt them. Know a persons weakness and use it to your advantage. It is my belief in god that draws the line between good business tactics and being just pure evil.

Wow, that's an interesting view. Let's test it to see if you're like other humans or if you're truly a sociopath.

You are down on your luck, but you end up passing a frail old person carrying a lot of money. If you kill said person, you will get $1000 and due to circumstances there is no evidence to link you to the crime.

If you want, you could also get $1,000 by working a $14 an hour job.

Imagine for a moment that you were somehow granted knowledge so that you know, for certain, god does not exist.

If you were forced to choose between these options, which would you choose?

According to your theory, you would kill a frail old person simply because it is less work than taking up a real job.

Is that how you view yourself? That you would kill the innocent for the sake of an easy buck were it not for punishment?
Wallstreetatheist
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6/16/2012 11:21:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 9:47:56 PM, sadolite wrote:

"all humans are sociopaths that must be leashed by a fear of divine punishment."
Yep, he has it pretty much spot on.

The idea that morality is legalistically predicated on divine punishment for disobeying takes away what's good about being good. If I do something to seek reward or to avoid punishment, I am merely being prudent given my circumstances, not moral.

If I knew nothing I did mattered, I would be a very different person. I would take advantage any way I could if I could do it without anyone knowing. Why should I not?

This is basically a crude rewording of Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov who said, "Without God, anything is permitted." To which I would reply, "Morality is not only possible without a divine lawgiver, it is entirely independent of God for good reason." The most famous reason is called the Euthyphro Dilemma. Plato phrased it like this, "(1) do the gods choose what is good because it is good, or (2) is the good good because the gods choose it?" If (1) is true, then that demonstrates that things are good or bad independent of God. If (2) is true, then the whole idea of morality is arbitrarily based on whatever the God chooses.

You think of morality in terms of what you ought to do or ought not to do, based on your question, so I'd advise you to read Immanuel Kant's work with categorical imperatives.

It is my belief in god that draws the line between good business tactics and being just pure evil.

Morality is inseparable from an individuals actions. In the end YOU make the final choice to be good or bad in any moral situation. Personal responsibility and morality go hand in hand.
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Aayu
Posts: 65
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6/17/2012 9:28:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
OH!!! Iniatially, I thought you were calling me a fool XP Now I get it.

At 6/16/2012 11:48:43 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:06:54 AM, Aayu wrote:
At 6/16/2012 1:55:05 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 6/16/2012 1:04:38 AM, Aayu wrote:
What is 'justice' according to you?

The Fool: prima facie I must say its a "word" a physical symbol, why what do you think it is.?

A word? What does it mean???

I asked the question because the usage of the word in the OP is kind of void. Justice can imply doing something fairly and reasonably. (That's what I relate it with) Using your power to yield equal benefits to everyone, regardless of their social strature.

The Fook: So I am asking what the physical symbol 'justice' mean to you?

I just explained my interpretation... Two lines back.

Why would yielding 'unfair' benefits to anyone give you materialistic benefits? What is 'unfair' anyway? Why would using your power to help somebody out be anyway related to the 'justness' of the action?

The Fool: right but does it make sense have a conversation about 'justice' if we have not calliberated the idea we use the 'word' Justiced to refer to. If we have to ask what the word 'justice' means to somebody, then the 'Word' is useless for discussion about it. So we should state the 'ideas' we use 'justice' to refer too and re-appropriate the word, so it means the same. If a langauge is for communication why use 'words' that we have to ask the question of what does it mean to you??? .Ever!!! . we make it should like there is X=the physical symbol I=the idea of justice in our mind that is being symbolized.

There seems to be a fallacy that there is this other thing y=this other Mystical ghost 'justice' which is not the 'word' nor the 'idea' but this other thing.
Is there really this other thing???


That's why I asked his interpretation of the word, because it does not coincide with mine. By my definition, injustice does not relate to your religious views. One can argue that an atheist does not have a motivation to act against individual benefit, even if it means social benefit. But injustice is not an idea I relate with the religious views.
Wallstreetatheist
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6/17/2012 1:43:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/15/2012 10:07:34 PM, dattaswami wrote:
[The atheist] will think that since God is absent, there is none to reward him for following the justice and there is none to punish him for doing the injustice in hidden way.

I don't need to be rewarded or punished by a celestial dictatorship. I behave well toward others because that's how I would want to be treated, and I have a conscience that regrets even the most trivial of mistakes, so I strive to act well in this respect also. My personal actions in this life have consequences in this world. That's why you hear atheists say things like, "I only have one life to live, so I want to make it a good one."

The final conclusion will be to do sin in undetectable way so that you can escape the ultimate punishment here and at the same time enjoy the materialistic benefit of the sin in this world.

It's true. That's a possibility, but one that is getting less and less likely to occur due to modern forensics, security cameras, and data systems. Also, taking this position, you must concede the most disgusting, violent sociopaths could accept Jesus on their deathbeds and go to heaven. That doesn't seem right to me.

Thus, everybody wants to maintain the social balance with selfish motive only and not for the sake of God since God does not exist. Hence, atheism will lead to social chaos one day or other.

If that was true, we would expect to see a greater proportion of atheists in prison and atheist countries being less peaceful. Do we? No. Atheists comprise 16% of the population of the US, and 0.21% of the prison population. What about atheist countries being violent and terrible, chaotic places to live? The most atheist countries have low rates of crime, are the most peaceful countries to live in, etc. Look at the video.

In the case of theism, there is God to reward you for following the justice. Even if you do the sin in hidden way, the omniscient God will detect and punish you here or the upper world.

Apparently, you haven't read the Quran or the Bible. Just following all of the rules and guidelines of these books would make you into a grotesque monster. Some cases: Quran--you can detonate yourself, killing hundreds of thousands of infidels and receive a great ethereal benefit. Bible--you should kill your children if they curse you.

The religion may be defective due to certain blind and foolish customs and traditions. But, the religion is far better than the atheism because the religion provides the golden theism to control the sin and maintain the social balance.

The most backwards and violent regions in the world are more than 99% theistic. Atheism is backed by naturalism and strong evidence; theism is backed by supernatural hysteria and weak evidence. Religious morality and justice is crude, arbitrary, and at best morally bankrupt. You have no legitimacy in your argument philosophically, realistically, or empirically.
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CosmicAlfonzo
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6/17/2012 3:48:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You .guys are very dense. God is nature, the universe, chaos. Everything is connected, and the things you do effect everything as visa versa. Actions give back response.

It is physics. As you act against something, it acts against you, just as you were guided into whatever position you are in now. You can say that the universe, causality in motion is divine justice. It is chaos, and how it is perceived depends on whether or not one's desires get in the way of honest judgement. Not understanding the nature of language will get in the way of honest judgement. Putting too much of yourself in the equation will get in the way of honest judgement.

To reach God consciousness, you must be aware of, and fully knowledgeable on the tool you are using to measure... yourself.

This is not new age babble I'm speaking, this is the way it is. All arts and sciences eventually come to grapple with The Truth when obsession leads one to that poiny, and one's integrity and self examination remain intact. It is the Cosmic Joke, I say!
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dattaswami
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6/18/2012 11:42:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 10:08:50 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
If God is omnipotent, nothing you do matters, God gets whatever the **** he wants no matter what.
If instead of omnipotence, you have free will; everything you do matters-- it affects your life.

Reply: Free will exists under supervision of Lord …

The Lord is controlling all the souls as per Veda "Aatmeshwaram", which means that all the souls are ruled by the Lord. Gita also says the same "Bhuthanaam Eeswarah". But this does not mean that there is no independence for the soul. When the king rules the kingdom, all the people in that kingdom are independent in their activities, but they are within the rules of the king. Thus a short span of independence in the human life exists under the control and supervision of the Lord.

A cat caught a rat by its jaws. It leaves the rat after a bite for a short span of time. In that span the rat gets independence and runs in any side as it likes. But the cat is watching the rat and catches it again whenever the rat is out of the limits of the supervision. Similarly the Lord called "Kaala" (death) catches a human being and bites. The bite is the illness of the human being. The repeated diseases are the repeated bites of the ‘Kaala" or the Lord.

During the bite the rat looses completely its independence. Similarly any human being, which is attacked by the disease becomes a patient and looses its independence completely. The cat plays with the rat for sometime like this and finally swallows the rat. Similarly, the human being is swallowed by the Lord at the end.

The whole creation itself is like a rat for the cat like Lord, which is told in Brahmasutra "Atta Charaachara Grahanaat". Thus the short span of independence of human beings under the supervision of the overall controlling Lord creates the full game and entertainment for the Lord.

Within the limits of the supervision of the cat, the rat will receive the result of the direction in which it runs. In one direction there may be fire and the rat may receive the heat. In another direction there may be cold water and the rat will receive the coolness in that direction. The rat is independent to receive the result of the direction and has full independence to go in any direction.

The final death of the rat shows that the rat is under the control of the cat during its choice of direction also, which is not interfered by the cat. Similarly the human life is with full of independence but the final end proves that the independence is under the control of the Lord. Yet, since there was no interference of the Lord during the human life, the human being receives the results according to its actions. Thus the "whole game is perfectly justified in any angle."
WriterDave
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6/19/2012 3:28:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/15/2012 10:07:34 PM, dattaswami wrote:
It is very difficult if you say that an atheist can also remain pure. The reason is that one day or other, the atheist will think about the ultimate in following justice. In his mind, certainly , the coming question will be "what is the ultimate benefit for me if i follow the justice and what is the ultimate loss to me if i do injustice in an undetectable way?" He will think that since God is absent, there is none to reward him for following the justice and there is none to punish him for doing the injustice in hidden way.

If the injustice is not done in the hidden way, there may be punishment in this world by the court of law. If you can escape the punishment here by doing the injustice in talented hidden way, there is materialistic benefit that promotes your enjoyment in this world. The final conclusion will be to do sin in undetectable way so that you can escape the ultimate punishment here and at the same time enjoy the materialistic benefit of the sin in this world.

You can propagate the justice through your speech everywhere so that the social balance is maintained. If the social balance is not maintained, your enjoyment here also gets disturbed. Therefore, maintain the social balance to have your personnel enjoyment without any disturbance. Hence, go on influencing everybody through speech to follow justice.

Thus, everybody wants to maintain the social balance with selfish motive only and not for the sake of God since God does not exist. Hence, atheism will lead to social chaos one day or other. In the case of theism, there is God to reward you for following the justice. Even if you do the sin in hidden way, the omniscient God will detect and punish you here or the upper world. The religion may be defective due to certain blind and foolish customs and traditions. But, the religion is far better than the atheism because the religion provides the golden theism to control the sin and maintain the social balance.

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