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When does the Soul enter the picture?

drafterman
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6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/24/2012 6:54:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Not too sure or dogmatic about the details but as of right now I"m attracted to an emergent dualism of the kind articulated by william hasker.

http://books.google.com...
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Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Then, I'm pretty sure our chemical aggregate is slightly less than our mass.

Last, there's the possibility of a loss of mass when we die (although the whole 21 grams thing from that experiment in the early 1900's is dubious, I'll admit).
Steelerman6794
Posts: 158
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6/24/2012 7:11:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Then, I'm pretty sure our chemical aggregate is slightly less than our mass.

Last, there's the possibility of a loss of mass when we die (although the whole 21 grams thing from that experiment in the early 1900's is dubious, I'll admit).

The whole point of the soul is that it's supposed to be metaphysical...
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.
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: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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6/24/2012 7:49:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: Soul and mind are the SAME. The the more original pre-manufactured, manipluted and update Bible. It really says that your whole body goes to Heaven. That it part of the story that Jesus's body was Gone. Altough I should say there is nothing rational about any of those story, because at the same time. You soul goes to heaven which back then UNTIL 1500's as they noticed that brain damage destroys the mind. Well it doesn't make much sense anymore, so they kinda overtime become two things. The is no actual definition, of soul. Which makes sense apart from the mind.

I have explained spirit as ready at least in the Western terms.
It comes from Greek as in breath air. In some Greek tradition,(pythagarian) it was bad, to eat beans because farting was seen as losing spirits. Although personally I would think this to be Good, because they smell like bad spirits anyway. <(8D)

But you have to understand why Air was mystical to them, it was invisible and yet they can feel it, it sometimes moved things and made noise. So you could see why it might even be scary, Thus Ghost comes from noisy air. The Holy Ghost is just like saying special ghost. The Bible was put together by the Greek Eastern Roman Empire. These words come from them. You have to remember back then anything seemed mystical but as we learn more about the world the definitions dont make sense. So things get invented to fiill the whole. But nothing significant does. There is no real western meanign of those words. Just one of the ways to test. is that the dictionary will aways have a crap load of vague definitions from peoples attempts. But non are clear of non-circular. the bible are circular.

The eastern spirit may mean something difference, also this is differnt from Things like Christmas spirit of team spirits and such.

As appose to eastern spirit.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/24/2012 7:56:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My guess with twins is that god sticks two souls in the embryo, since he knows that eventually one undifferentiated cell will break off to form a viable fetus.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/24/2012 8:05:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Well, sure. Just as (at or close to) every other aspect (genome, appearance, etc.), and given they're the result of a split zygote, I see no reason why they shouldn't be the result of a soul that divided. Not necessarily resulting in incomplete souls, but perhaps those that began (at or close to) identical.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/24/2012 8:22:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?

I don't know anything about souls. Enlighten me.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/24/2012 8:23:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 7:56:57 PM, Wnope wrote:
My guess with twins is that god sticks two souls in the embryo, since he knows that eventually one undifferentiated cell will break off to form a viable fetus.

And in the case of chimeras? Each gets half a soul?
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/24/2012 8:25:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 8:22:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?

I don't know anything about souls. Enlighten me.

Lol, yeah, me neither. So, I couldn't enlighten you... all I can say is that the conception of a soul is not necessarily incompatible with biological reality. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/24/2012 8:30:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 8:25:10 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:22:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?

I don't know anything about souls. Enlighten me.

Lol, yeah, me neither. So, I couldn't enlighten you... all I can say is that the conception of a soul is not necessarily incompatible with biological reality. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive.

Any undefined concept isn't necessarily incompatible with anything.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/24/2012 8:37:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 8:30:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:25:10 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:22:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?

I don't know anything about souls. Enlighten me.

Lol, yeah, me neither. So, I couldn't enlighten you... all I can say is that the conception of a soul is not necessarily incompatible with biological reality. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive.

Any undefined concept isn't necessarily incompatible with anything.

It's not necessarily undefined... it's just not understood. However, if its very existence is under question, how substantial could it's description legitimately be...?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/24/2012 9:23:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 8:37:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:30:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:25:10 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:22:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?

I don't know anything about souls. Enlighten me.

Lol, yeah, me neither. So, I couldn't enlighten you... all I can say is that the conception of a soul is not necessarily incompatible with biological reality. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive.

Any undefined concept isn't necessarily incompatible with anything.

It's not necessarily undefined... it's just not understood. However, if its very existence is under question, how substantial could it's description legitimately be...?

Unless you are coming I to this conversation with a scrutible conception of the soul, then I'm not sure what you perceive your role in this discussion to be.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/25/2012 12:02:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 9:23:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:37:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:30:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:25:10 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:22:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?

I don't know anything about souls. Enlighten me.

Lol, yeah, me neither. So, I couldn't enlighten you... all I can say is that the conception of a soul is not necessarily incompatible with biological reality. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive.

Any undefined concept isn't necessarily incompatible with anything.

It's not necessarily undefined... it's just not understood. However, if its very existence is under question, how substantial could it's description legitimately be...?

Unless you are coming I to this conversation with a scrutible conception of the soul, then I'm not sure what you perceive your role in this discussion to be.

Didn't I come into this saying that I'm completely undecided?

However, I did present some ideas, and they were countered with biological realities that seem to contradict some preconception of what a soul "is supposed to be." I was just pointing out that if this preconception exists, then its arbitrary, because a soul hasn't been defined, and it's generally not understood.

Have you met anyone that can definitively discuss the soul without borrowing from ideologies that you reject?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/25/2012 5:16:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/25/2012 12:02:53 AM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 9:23:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:37:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:30:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:25:10 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:22:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?

I don't know anything about souls. Enlighten me.

Lol, yeah, me neither. So, I couldn't enlighten you... all I can say is that the conception of a soul is not necessarily incompatible with biological reality. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive.

Any undefined concept isn't necessarily incompatible with anything.

It's not necessarily undefined... it's just not understood. However, if its very existence is under question, how substantial could it's description legitimately be...?

Unless you are coming I to this conversation with a scrutible conception of the soul, then I'm not sure what you perceive your role in this discussion to be.

Didn't I come into this saying that I'm completely undecided?

However, I did present some ideas, and they were countered with biological realities that seem to contradict some preconception of what a soul "is supposed to be." I was just pointing out that if this preconception exists, then its arbitrary, because a soul hasn't been defined, and it's generally not understood.

Have you met anyone that can definitively discuss the soul without borrowing from ideologies that you reject?

My problem is that you re interpreting everything I'm saying as rejection, rather than the open queries and requests that they are. Then, your response to this illusory criticisms is to say that, because you don't know what the fvck a soul is, then you don't know that these make believe criticisms are valid. And it's starting to get annoying.

So, I ask again, you don't know what a soul is, so you can't actually counter any criticisms if I was making any, which I'm not, you can't answer the questions I've provided, and you can't really add anything because you don't even have a developed conception of the topic at had.

So, again, what are you trying to accomplish here?
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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6/25/2012 6:13:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: is this really that strange or incomprehensible?

The Fool: Soul and mind are the SAME. Pre 1600's only the word Soul was used. (This is fact) Soul used to just mean mind. Soul in the Bible just means mind. It's only later, when we learn that the mind gets damaged by the brain. Does there become MIND and SOUL. As though there are two separate entities.

Clarification:

The mind=consciousness itself.

The Brain=is the physical correlate of the mind.

Up until around 1500's hundreds 1600's the 'word' ‘soul' referred to MIND.
In the Bible Soul is mind. Because this is what the ‘word' ‘Soul' meant at the time.

As we learned more about the effects that brain damage has on consciousness/mind.

What is left to be called ‘soul' has gotten pushed and pushed into a corner until it doesn't really have any particular meaning anymore.

That is why it is Awkward, in unclear what we take about ‘soul' because it no longer describes anything in consciousness anymore. But to keep in line with a religions meaning the word gets reinterpreted by theologins, to try and keep it making sense with modern knowledge.

BUT REMEMBER IT IS A FACT THAT WHATEVER NEW VERSION THEY HAVE CREATED SINCE THE BIBLE. IS NOT THE REAL MEANING IN THE BIBLE.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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6/25/2012 6:22:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
In the western sense these words used to mean:

Spirit: breath air
Ghost: strong noisly wind
Soul: consciousness/mind

Now they no longer have any particular meaning.

Spirit:????
Ghost: similar, that is why Casper and Ghost are HOLLOW LIKE.
Soul: ????????

Mind=conscousness

Spirit in the eastern sense may be different. For it has been translated into soul, but we don't even know what soul meant. So that is very problematic.

Not to be confused with the 'word' spirit, as in you got the 'spirit'. Aka The RIght mood.

or 'you in the 'spirit"'; feeling motivated.

Chrismas or team "spirit' ; The Set of positive connnations associated with such activies.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Ren
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6/25/2012 8:23:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/25/2012 5:16:53 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/25/2012 12:02:53 AM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 9:23:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:37:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:30:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:25:10 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:22:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?

I don't know anything about souls. Enlighten me.

Lol, yeah, me neither. So, I couldn't enlighten you... all I can say is that the conception of a soul is not necessarily incompatible with biological reality. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive.

Any undefined concept isn't necessarily incompatible with anything.

It's not necessarily undefined... it's just not understood. However, if its very existence is under question, how substantial could it's description legitimately be...?

Unless you are coming I to this conversation with a scrutible conception of the soul, then I'm not sure what you perceive your role in this discussion to be.

Didn't I come into this saying that I'm completely undecided?

However, I did present some ideas, and they were countered with biological realities that seem to contradict some preconception of what a soul "is supposed to be." I was just pointing out that if this preconception exists, then its arbitrary, because a soul hasn't been defined, and it's generally not understood.

Have you met anyone that can definitively discuss the soul without borrowing from ideologies that you reject?

My problem is that you re interpreting everything I'm saying as rejection,

Dude. This conversation hasn't been going on for long. You literally said:

"Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes."

Which is a rejection.

I had a single response, which was:

"Why not the fusion of two souls?
Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?"

Which is a fair question, given your response assumes that there's some sort of inherent contradiction in the existence of chimeras and the existence of the soul. It isn't, on the other hand:

"...open queries and requests that they are."

That's just you being touchy, and I'm not sure why.

You just want me to butt out of it? Don't give a shiit what I have to say? Fine, just say so; don't make it out like I'm not making sense of I'm delusional, because that's just dick.
drafterman
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6/25/2012 8:38:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/25/2012 8:23:31 AM, Ren wrote:
At 6/25/2012 5:16:53 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/25/2012 12:02:53 AM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 9:23:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:37:08 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:30:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:25:10 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:22:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 8:06:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:41:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:04:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

Well, about this, I'm completely undecided. But, I will say this. At the point of conception, once the sperm cell penetrates the egg, there's a change in the electromagnetic current exhibited by the egg (now a zygote), which can be construed as a pulse of energy. This spurs a reaction in organelles that repel other sperm from the zygote as it divides. This electromagnetic alteration may be the inception of a soul.

Twinning occurs after this if I'm not mistaken.

Depends on the type of twin. Identical twins, yes.

Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes.

Why not the fusion of two souls?

Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?

I don't know anything about souls. Enlighten me.

Lol, yeah, me neither. So, I couldn't enlighten you... all I can say is that the conception of a soul is not necessarily incompatible with biological reality. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive.

Any undefined concept isn't necessarily incompatible with anything.

It's not necessarily undefined... it's just not understood. However, if its very existence is under question, how substantial could it's description legitimately be...?

Unless you are coming I to this conversation with a scrutible conception of the soul, then I'm not sure what you perceive your role in this discussion to be.

Didn't I come into this saying that I'm completely undecided?

However, I did present some ideas, and they were countered with biological realities that seem to contradict some preconception of what a soul "is supposed to be." I was just pointing out that if this preconception exists, then its arbitrary, because a soul hasn't been defined, and it's generally not understood.

Have you met anyone that can definitively discuss the soul without borrowing from ideologies that you reject?

My problem is that you re interpreting everything I'm saying as rejection,

Dude. This conversation hasn't been going on for long. You literally said:

"Also, I'd like to see how any conception of the soul deals with chimeras, the fusion of two fertilized Zygotes."

Which is a rejection.

No it isn't. It's a request. "The conception of the soul can't deal with chimeras." is a rejection.


I had a single response, which was:

"Why not the fusion of two souls?
Is there something you know about souls that makes this an impossibility?"

Which is a fair question, given your response assumes that there's some sort of inherent contradiction in the existence of chimeras and the existence of the soul.

I made no such assumption in my statements.

It isn't, on the other hand:

"...open queries and requests that they are."

That's just you being touchy, and I'm not sure why.

Because I am making a request and query here and you are straw manning me. Stop.


You just want me to butt out of it? Don't give a shiit what I have to say? Fine, just say so; don't make it out like I'm not making sense of I'm delusional, because that's just dick.

I never said you aren't making sense or are delusion. I'm questioning your very presence here in terms of adding something to the conversation. Either you have questions of your own, in which case you're on my side, addressing them to some potential audience, or you have answers to give, in which case you are the potential audience, addressing them to me.

You appear to be doing neither. So, yeah, butt out.

For the record, I am asking questions (noted by the placement of question marks) and am making requests regarding how any conception of a soul incorporates the aforementioned biological phenomenon. Only pop culture had even made an attempt to address this, but I can't really respond without first reading the book.
Ren
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6/25/2012 9:02:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/25/2012 8:38:26 AM, drafterman wrote:

Which is a fair question, given your response assumes that there's some sort of inherent contradiction in the existence of chimeras and the existence of the soul.

I made no such assumption in my statements.

I could say the same thing about my question. "

It isn't, on the other hand:

"...open queries and requests that they are."

That's just you being touchy, and I'm not sure why.

Because I am making a request and query here and you are straw manning me. Stop.

You're an atheist, are you not? The "soul" is a markedly religious concept, much like the concept of a god or an afterlife. Asking a question about zygotes in relation to current soul-related dialectics is clearly absurd. There is nothing in biology that distinctly discusses a soul.

But, your question does not read as curiosity. It reads as a challenge. You posted the same question to Wnope:

At 6/24/2012 8:23:37 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:56:57 PM, Wnope wrote:
My guess with twins is that god sticks two souls in the embryo, since he knows that eventually one undifferentiated cell will break off to form a viable fetus.

And in the case of chimeras? Each gets half a soul?

As though to say, "to add to that, it is also absurd to believe in a soul, given the biological reality of a chimera, where the life of one depends on the life of another, effectively acting as a single being." Why else would you ask that question? Wnope was not giving real information; he was being derisive.

You just want me to butt out of it? Don't give a shiit what I have to say? Fine, just say so; don't make it out like I'm not making sense of I'm delusional, because that's just dick.

I never said you aren't making sense

At 6/24/2012 9:23:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
scrutible

or are delusion.

At 6/25/2012 5:16:53 AM, drafterman wrote:
illusory

I'm questioning your very presence here in terms of adding something to the conversation. Either you have questions of your own, in which case you're on my side, addressing them to some potential audience, or you have answers to give, in which case you are the potential audience, addressing them to me.

You appear to be doing neither. So, yeah, butt out.

See, and that's just being rude. You were asking an open question in the forum, and I put in my two cents. I am undecided, however, there does seem to be some suggestions that a soul might exist. What's wrong with that? I have to give you some encyclopedic entry of what the fvck a soul is in order to participate in the conversation?

For the record, I am asking questions (noted by the placement of question marks) and am making requests regarding how any conception of a soul incorporates the aforementioned biological phenomenon. Only pop culture had even made an attempt to address this, but I can't really respond without first reading the book.

Are you serious? You're telling me that you're literally requesting that someone point out an explanation biological phenomenon discovered within the last 100 years as it relates to other concepts in a book written over the course of hundreds of years, thousands of years ago? You mean to tell me that these are completely legitimate questions borne of honest curiosity? You really expected Gileandos or PCP to come strolling in here with something like:

Aarskogs 7:22 And Lord instructeth: if a zygote by happenstance fuses with another zygote; and this being cometh forth a single being from the womb, 23 then this is two souls, that hath fused forth and shall never spit therefrom evermore.

Really?!
drafterman
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6/25/2012 9:22:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/25/2012 9:02:38 AM, Ren wrote:
At 6/25/2012 8:38:26 AM, drafterman wrote:

Which is a fair question, given your response assumes that there's some sort of inherent contradiction in the existence of chimeras and the existence of the soul.

I made no such assumption in my statements.

I could say the same thing about my question. "

It isn't, on the other hand:

"...open queries and requests that they are."

That's just you being touchy, and I'm not sure why.

Because I am making a request and query here and you are straw manning me. Stop.

You're an atheist, are you not? The "soul" is a markedly religious concept, much like the concept of a god or an afterlife. Asking a question about zygotes in relation to current soul-related dialectics is clearly absurd. There is nothing in biology that distinctly discusses a soul.

So, because I'm an atheist, and because I do reject the existence of a soul (as a matter of my belief system), then I'm not allowed to ask how other people, who do accept the existence of a soul, resolve their conception with biology? So, I'm not allowed to query for more information with which to reevaluate my own belief system?

Fvck. You.


But, your question does not read as curiosity. It reads as a challenge. You posted the same question to Wnope:

Curiosity and challenge is not mutually exclusive.


At 6/24/2012 8:23:37 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/24/2012 7:56:57 PM, Wnope wrote:
My guess with twins is that god sticks two souls in the embryo, since he knows that eventually one undifferentiated cell will break off to form a viable fetus.

And in the case of chimeras? Each gets half a soul?

As though to say, "to add to that, it is also absurd to believe in a soul, given the biological reality of a chimera, where the life of one depends on the life of another, effectively acting as a single being." Why else would you ask that question? Wnope was not giving real information; he was being derisive.

It is absurd. Which is why I'm asking how others resolve that apparent absurdity.


You just want me to butt out of it? Don't give a shiit what I have to say? Fine, just say so; don't make it out like I'm not making sense of I'm delusional, because that's just dick.

I never said you aren't making sense

At 6/24/2012 9:23:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
scrutible

or are delusion.


At 6/25/2012 5:16:53 AM, drafterman wrote:
illusory

I'm questioning your very presence here in terms of adding something to the conversation. Either you have questions of your own, in which case you're on my side, addressing them to some potential audience, or you have answers to give, in which case you are the potential audience, addressing them to me.

You appear to be doing neither. So, yeah, butt out.

See, and that's just being rude.

You asked me to tell you if I wanted you to butt out. I'm doing that. Butt. The fvck. out.

You were asking an open question in the forum, and I put in my two cents.

No you didn't. You've put in precisely d1ck.

I am undecided, however, there does seem to be some suggestions that a soul might exist. What's wrong with that? I have to give you some encyclopedic entry of what the fvck a soul is in order to participate in the conversation?

For you? Yes. That is the requirement for you to participate. Thanks for coming up with it.


For the record, I am asking questions (noted by the placement of question marks) and am making requests regarding how any conception of a soul incorporates the aforementioned biological phenomenon. Only pop culture had even made an attempt to address this, but I can't really respond without first reading the book.

Are you serious? You're telling me that you're literally requesting that someone point out an explanation biological phenomenon discovered within the last 100 years as it relates to other concepts in a book written over the course of hundreds of years, thousands of years ago?

Yes.

You mean to tell me that these are completely legitimate questions borne of honest curiosity? You really expected Gileandos or PCP to come strolling in here with something like:

Aarskogs 7:22 And Lord instructeth: if a zygote by happenstance fuses with another zygote; and this being cometh forth a single being from the womb, 23 then this is two souls, that hath fused forth and shall never spit therefrom evermore.

Really?!

I doubt the Bible alone will be sufficient to explain the concepts being dealt with here. But a soul is not limited to Christianity, or even religion. Furthermore, the Bible is not the end all be all of religious thought.

PCP has ALREADY chimed in with something apparently constructive. I'd like to hear more about his emergent dualism, but I haven't gotten around to taking a look at that book yet.
popculturepooka
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6/25/2012 10:18:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@drafterman, i'm fairly certain he has shorter articles on the subject. I'll try to find them for you. Also, i will pm you a pdf that has a book chapter by him on this subject. You don't happen to have a kindle, do you?
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SovereignDream
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6/25/2012 11:30:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

I would say that it is not pertinent to know exactly when homo sapiens was imprated with a soul. In that sense, I'm both largely apathetic and agnostic. It does not matter much to me if homo sapiens was imparted with a soul on 76,000 B.C. or 77,000 B.C. (or whenever).
Wallstreetatheist
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6/25/2012 11:41:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

This reminds me of Clarence Darrow. Go to 4:10 for the soul part.
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The_Fool_on_the_hill
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6/25/2012 1:07:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/25/2012 11:30:15 AM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 6/24/2012 6:31:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
For those that believe that we, as living beings, have some nonphysical component, commonly known as a spirit, or soul. At what stage or pint in human development does the soul enter the picture, and where does it come from?

I would say that it is not pertinent to know exactly when homo sapiens was imprated with a soul. In that sense, I'm both largely apathetic and agnostic. It does not matter much to me if homo sapiens was imparted with a soul on 76,000 B.C. or 77,000 B.C. (or whenever).

The Fool: You really think this, live has been completly gradual.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
drafterman
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6/25/2012 1:16:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/25/2012 10:18:39 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
@drafterman, i'm fairly certain he has shorter articles on the subject. I'll try to find them for you. Also, i will pm you a pdf that has a book chapter by him on this subject. You don't happen to have a kindle, do you?

I have an iPad with kindle, on, I'd that suffices. I'm fairly interested in emergent properties.