Total Posts:75|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

A challenge for DDO

000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:31:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What is neither random, nor caused?

and if you can answer that, I assume you can answer:

What is neither true nor false?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:36:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:31:28 PM, 000ike wrote:
What is neither random, nor caused?

A non-contingent being which exists in all possible worlds.

and if you can answer that, I assume you can answer:

What is neither true nor false?

A non-sensical proposition i.e. The toaster colorless yesterday Obama's chariot.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:40:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:36:38 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/4/2012 10:31:28 PM, 000ike wrote:
What is neither random, nor caused?

A non-contingent being which exists in all possible worlds.

rephrased: What is something that is bound by logic, and neither random nor caused?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:40:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:31:28 PM, 000ike wrote:
What is neither random, nor caused?

Stupidity.

and if you can answer that, I assume you can answer:

What is neither true nor false?

The statement "There is no such thing as an objective fact".
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:42:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:36:38 PM, socialpinko wrote:

A non-sensical proposition i.e. The toaster colorless yesterday Obama's chariot.

That's cheap. That sentences doesn't even make a claim on anything. By that logic I can say that the word "toaster" is neither true nor false.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:45:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:42:21 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/4/2012 10:36:38 PM, socialpinko wrote:

A non-sensical proposition i.e. The toaster colorless yesterday Obama's chariot.

That's cheap. That sentences doesn't even make a claim on anything. By that logic I can say that the word "toaster" is neither true nor false.

And you'd be right since the proposition has no truth value either way. It's not cheap it's just an honest answer.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:49:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
By the way, if we can't come up with an answer to the first question, that means that freewill is false.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:51:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:49:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
By the way, if we can't come up with an answer to the first question, that means that freewill is false.

Well it was kind of obvious what you were getting at since that's your go-to argument against it. Anyways, I think it's kind of fallacious though seeing as you're kind of presupposing that the will isn't something that's not caused or random. I mean, if I were to answer with the human will would you just dismiss that?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:54:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:31:28 PM, 000ike wrote:
What is neither random, nor caused?

Your genome... the weather... personalities... opinions... as far as we know, the emergency of life..

and if you can answer that, I assume you can answer:

What is neither true nor false?

An uncertain perception.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 10:59:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:51:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/4/2012 10:49:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
By the way, if we can't come up with an answer to the first question, that means that freewill is false.

Well it was kind of obvious what you were getting at since that's your go-to argument against it. Anyways, I think it's kind of fallacious though seeing as you're kind of presupposing that the will isn't something that's not caused or random. I mean, if I were to answer with the human will would you just dismiss that?

Not really. I'm asking you to arrive at a 3rd option using nothing but intuitive logic...and ignoring your supposed experience of freewill. Now, lets suppose you can't arrive at a third option using this method.

If we do in fact have freewill that would then put our perception of logic in question. However, if our perception of logic is correct, then freewill must be false.

However, this whole thing rests on you finding the 3rd option logically first, ignoring everything else.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 11:05:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:59:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/4/2012 10:51:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/4/2012 10:49:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
By the way, if we can't come up with an answer to the first question, that means that freewill is false.

Well it was kind of obvious what you were getting at since that's your go-to argument against it. Anyways, I think it's kind of fallacious though seeing as you're kind of presupposing that the will isn't something that's not caused or random. I mean, if I were to answer with the human will would you just dismiss that?

Not really. I'm asking you to arrive at a 3rd option using nothing but intuitive logic...and ignoring your supposed experience of freewill. Now, lets suppose you can't arrive at a third option using this method.

If we do in fact have freewill that would then put our perception of logic in question. However, if our perception of logic is correct, then freewill must be false.

However, this whole thing rests on you finding the 3rd option logically first, ignoring everything else.

So you're assuming that if free will is the only thing that is uncaused and non-random, then it does not exist?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 11:10:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 11:05:06 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/4/2012 10:59:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/4/2012 10:51:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/4/2012 10:49:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
By the way, if we can't come up with an answer to the first question, that means that freewill is false.

Well it was kind of obvious what you were getting at since that's your go-to argument against it. Anyways, I think it's kind of fallacious though seeing as you're kind of presupposing that the will isn't something that's not caused or random. I mean, if I were to answer with the human will would you just dismiss that?

Not really. I'm asking you to arrive at a 3rd option using nothing but intuitive logic...and ignoring your supposed experience of freewill. Now, lets suppose you can't arrive at a third option using this method.

If we do in fact have freewill that would then put our perception of logic in question. However, if our perception of logic is correct, then freewill must be false.

However, this whole thing rests on you finding the 3rd option logically first, ignoring everything else.

So you're assuming that if free will is the only thing that is uncaused and non-random, then it does not exist?

What? How did you get that from what I wrote?

I'm saying that we should arrive at freewill logically first, ignoring any observational proof. If freewill is not approachable through intuitive logic,....then there is 1 of 2 implications. Either:

1) Our perception of logic is accurate, and freewill is impossible

or

2) Our perception of logic is false, and freewill is possible.

However,...if you CAN arrive at a 3rd option using intuitive logic, then our perception of logic is upheld, and freewill is possible.

So therefore,...the first step is attempting to find a 3rd option, hence this thread.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 11:23:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 11:10:03 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/4/2012 11:05:06 PM, socialpinko wrote:

So you're assuming that if free will is the only thing that is uncaused and non-random, then it does not exist?

What? How did you get that from what I wrote?

You're asking for something that we can inuitively posit to be uncaused and non-random and basically saying if we cannot come up with something then free will does not exist. But you're saying free will doesn't count so you're basically precluding free will from being a unique emergent property of human consciousness.

I'm saying that we should arrive at freewill logically first, ignoring any observational proof. If freewill is not approachable through intuitive logic,....then there is 1 of 2 implications. Either:

1) Our perception of logic is accurate, and freewill is impossible

or

2) Our perception of logic is false, and freewill is possible.

However,...if you CAN arrive at a 3rd option using intuitive logic, then our perception of logic is upheld, and freewill is possible.

So therefore,...the first step is attempting to find a 3rd option, hence this thread.

Then you're just being circular. You're saying:

> We have to able to arrive at uncaused non-random phenomenon logically.
> Cept for the one thing that we can logically presume to fit the characteristics.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 11:34:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:31:28 PM, 000ike wrote:
What is neither random, nor caused?

You mean events, right? A random event may or may not be caused. Throwing dice causes a random outcome.

"Cause" implies a time sequence, which implies time exists. We don't know if some concept of 'events' exists separate from time. At least I don't know.

and if you can answer that, I assume you can answer:

What is neither true nor false?

Something is neither true nor false if the question is not a valid question. "Do rocks think like rock stars?" is an invalid question, because as we all know, rock stars are incapable of thought. there are a number of ways to construct invalid questions.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2012 11:47:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:31:28 PM, 000ike wrote:
What is neither random, nor caused?

Nothingness

and if you can answer that, I assume you can answer:

What is neither true nor false?

How I see math word problems: If you have 4 pencils and I have 7 apples, how many pancakes will fit on the roof? Purple, because aliens don't wear hats.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/5/2012 12:01:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 11:34:53 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Throwing dice causes a random outcome.

Disagree
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/5/2012 1:53:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
What causes your actions? Your will.
What is your will? Circumstance and Action.

Random means no-one can impact it. Caused means external forces can impact it. Free will means internal forces can impact it.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/5/2012 2:02:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/5/2012 12:01:10 AM, phantom wrote:
At 7/4/2012 11:34:53 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Throwing dice causes a random outcome.

Disagree

The result of a die roll is determined by the way it is thrown, according to the laws of classical mechanics; they are made random by uncertainty due to factors like movements in the thrower's hand. Thus, they are a type of hardware random number generator. Some people claim that the pips on the faces of certain styles of dice cause a small bias, but there is no research to support this claim. Casino dice have flush markings, offering the assurance that this brings them very close to providing true uniformly distributed random numbers.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/5/2012 2:13:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/5/2012 2:02:37 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 7/5/2012 12:01:10 AM, phantom wrote:
At 7/4/2012 11:34:53 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Throwing dice causes a random outcome.

Disagree

The result of a die roll is determined by the way it is thrown, according to the laws of classical mechanics; they are made random by uncertainty due to factors like movements in the thrower's hand. Thus, they are a type of hardware random number generator. Some people claim that the pips on the faces of certain styles of dice cause a small bias, but there is no research to support this claim. Casino dice have flush markings, offering the assurance that this brings them very close to providing true uniformly distributed random numbers.

I think he meant that it was a matter of perspective. A die rolls seems random to us because we can't calculate the odds of it landing on a specific side. But theoretically if we had infinite knowledge we might be able to predict exactly how any die role would turn out since we would know all the relevant factors involved in determining it.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/5/2012 2:35:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/5/2012 2:13:17 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/5/2012 2:02:37 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 7/5/2012 12:01:10 AM, phantom wrote:
At 7/4/2012 11:34:53 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Throwing dice causes a random outcome.

Disagree

The result of a die roll is determined by the way it is thrown, according to the laws of classical mechanics; they are made random by uncertainty due to factors like movements in the thrower's hand. Thus, they are a type of hardware random number generator. Some people claim that the pips on the faces of certain styles of dice cause a small bias, but there is no research to support this claim. Casino dice have flush markings, offering the assurance that this brings them very close to providing true uniformly distributed random numbers.

I think he meant that it was a matter of perspective. A die rolls seems random to us because we can't calculate the odds of it landing on a specific side. But theoretically if we had infinite knowledge we might be able to predict exactly how any die role would turn out since we would know all the relevant factors involved in determining it.

And we would then go to Vegas, win big, and get out before they're on to us. But, it's generally accepted that the die roll is a random 1/6 chance for one side to face up given a large enough sample size. If we create a statistical model of die rolls, it would use that as the standard. But, then again, this is the philosophy section where simple answers are unwanted.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/5/2012 8:27:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Which side the dice lands on is entirely dependent on other factors and it could not land in any other possible way in presence of those factors. Therefore, not random. We may think of it as random but that's just because we are not in control of the way it will land.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
jedipengiun
Posts: 169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/5/2012 9:21:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/4/2012 10:31:28 PM, 000ike wrote:
What is neither random, nor caused?

and if you can answer that, I assume you can answer:

What is neither true nor false?

A predestination paradox/causal loop?
Things that make me happy!

: At 6/22/2012 1:46:11 PM, Kinesis wrote:
: Also, as an Englishman I'm obligated to be prejudiced against gingers and the French.

: At 8/27/2012 10:00:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
: Every self-respecting philosopher needs to smoke a pipe.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/5/2012 12:24:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/5/2012 8:27:53 AM, phantom wrote:
Which side the dice lands on is entirely dependent on other factors and it could not land in any other possible way in presence of those factors. Therefore, not random. We may think of it as random but that's just because we are not in control of the way it will land.

The problem is now that we know that random and caused are not mutually exclusive, which means it is incomparable to true/false. Unless we want to break the rules of logic.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...