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Dream skeptism

The_Fool_on_the_hill
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7/29/2012 10:03:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: Now of all the extreme sceptical examples. Like brain in vats (matrix) or Solipsism, or evil demons, I find the dream scepticism the most difficult; I personally have solutions of those ones. But this one I find harder and I am the least confident about. (The partitions are just for ease of reading.)

So what can we do as a DDO philosophy TEAM to solve this problem, is put all the best ideas we can think of together and CALCULATE.

The purpose is to get friendly, positive and engaging philosophical dialect here. I hold no personal Grudges for long. So I encourage everybody and anybody to give their two sense cents the more the merrier. Don't be afraid to put your ideas out in the open. The more information we have to work with the better.

The Cartisian dream challenge

Descartes: [I would appear insane to make such doubts] with to take with their behaviours to myself. This would all be well and good, were I not a man who is accustomed to sleeping at night, and to experiencing my dreams the very same things, or now and then even less plausible ones, as these insane people do when they are awake.

How often does my evening slumber persuade me of such ordinary things as these: that I am here, clothed in my dressing gown, seated next to the fireplace—when in fact I am lying undressed in Bed! But right now my eyes are certainly wide awake when I gazed upon this sheet of paper. This head which I am shaking is not heavy with sleep. I extend this hand consciously and deliberately and I feel it.

Such things would not be so distinct for someone who is a sleep's if I did not recall having been deceived on other occasions even by similar thought in my Dream! As I consider these matters more carefully, I see so plainly that there are no definitive signs by which to distinguish being awake from being asleep. As a result, I am becoming quite dizzy, and this dizziness nearly convinces me that I am asleep." Rene Descartes aka The Cart Man (only to me) <(89) Meditations of first philosophy. (1642)

My role will be to give clarifications of Descartes position if some is needed. Ask challenging questions and pin competing or contrasting Ideas against each other to be resolved. But not give answers. Let's see if we can at least come to a best case conclusion.

Rules: (please respect them)
1. No appeals to authority. You can use their argument, but who cares where they are from.
2. No slandering others. The purpose here is to debate. Expect tension.
3. The best explanation is the one that can make the most amounts of prediction or demarcations with the least amount of assumptions.
4. Sarcasm is not rational inquiry

There are so many creative things we could do in this forum. It all starts with co-operations. Please give it a chance.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/31/2012 7:18:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: eh continental.. kind of funny.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/31/2012 9:58:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: I want to slap that guy!!! It really funny though.

But honestly, Freedo, try and give it and honest shot. Try and give you best theory on getting out of dream skepticm. I think all these kinds of problems can be solved. If we just put our minds together. So how would you going about responding to Descartes.?
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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7/31/2012 12:17:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ah, dreams. They are the beautiful proof that our existence and "reality" are mutually exclusive.

With the exception of Lucid Dreaming, I figure the only ways to tell the difference between dream states and reality is through both consensus and enduring histories.

In other words, what you know to be your entire life and everything it entails, as well as confirmation from other conscious beings that what is happening, really is happening.

How can you tell that you're not dreaming up other conscious beings, you ask?

Well, I'd say that's contingent on evidence that they are completely removed from your consciousness -- in other words, verifiably knowing different things than you know, as well as either presenting or interpreting them in ways that you can't conceive.

For example -- I can confirm I exist in "reality" every time I encounter something that abides by nature and reality's given rubric, but is nonetheless completley new to me. For example, I couldn't dream up my interaction here on DDO, as it contains people with intellects, perspectives, experience, and knowledge completely separate from my own, rendering my experiences here unimaginable.
caveat
Posts: 2,137
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7/31/2012 12:26:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/31/2012 12:17:35 PM, Ren wrote:
Ah, dreams. They are the beautiful proof that our existence and "reality" are mutually exclusive.

With the exception of Lucid Dreaming, I figure the only ways to tell the difference between dream states and reality is through both consensus and enduring histories.

In other words, what you know to be your entire life and everything it entails, as well as confirmation from other conscious beings that what is happening, really is happening.

How can you tell that you're not dreaming up other conscious beings, you ask?

Well, I'd say that's contingent on evidence that they are completely removed from your consciousness -- in other words, verifiably knowing different things than you know, as well as either presenting or interpreting them in ways that you can't conceive.

For example -- I can confirm I exist in "reality" every time I encounter something that abides by nature and reality's given rubric, but is nonetheless completley new to me. For example, I couldn't dream up my interaction here on DDO, as it contains people with intellects, perspectives, experience, and knowledge completely separate from my own, rendering my experiences here unimaginable.

But isn't that contingent on knowing with absolute certainty, at some point in the past, you were awake? Otherwise, you wouldn't know what you don't know.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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7/31/2012 12:45:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/31/2012 12:26:29 PM, caveat wrote:
At 7/31/2012 12:17:35 PM, Ren wrote:
Ah, dreams. They are the beautiful proof that our existence and "reality" are mutually exclusive.

With the exception of Lucid Dreaming, I figure the only ways to tell the difference between dream states and reality is through both consensus and enduring histories.

In other words, what you know to be your entire life and everything it entails, as well as confirmation from other conscious beings that what is happening, really is happening.

How can you tell that you're not dreaming up other conscious beings, you ask?

Well, I'd say that's contingent on evidence that they are completely removed from your consciousness -- in other words, verifiably knowing different things than you know, as well as either presenting or interpreting them in ways that you can't conceive.

For example -- I can confirm I exist in "reality" every time I encounter something that abides by nature and reality's given rubric, but is nonetheless completley new to me. For example, I couldn't dream up my interaction here on DDO, as it contains people with intellects, perspectives, experience, and knowledge completely separate from my own, rendering my experiences here unimaginable.

But isn't that contingent on knowing with absolute certainty, at some point in the past, you were awake? Otherwise, you wouldn't know what you don't know.

Indeed! However, how often is one born asleep?

If we're gently alluding to The Matrix, then I'd say that's a special case... it's probably something from which it'd be impossible to escape until someone wakes up, which was likewise the case in the movie.

Such an existence, though, is essentially indistinguishable from reality, thus becoming reality in a different sense, and therefore, requiring dreams in its own right, as well as everything else that comprises the full dimension of real experience.

It's essentially the same as comparing the human construct with humanity's basic, primeval state. Sure, everything we base our lives on is contrived, which wouldn't be the case if we were to intersperse our lives with our ecosystems, but that doesn't make it any less real as long as we continue to live it.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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7/31/2012 1:19:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/31/2012 9:58:42 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: I want to slap that guy!!! It really funny though.

But honestly, Freedo, try and give it and honest shot. Try and give you best theory on getting out of dream skepticm. I think all these kinds of problems can be solved. If we just put our minds together. So how would you going about responding to Descartes.?

Why would you want to get out of it?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/31/2012 1:22:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: we want to be able to tell the difference...
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/31/2012 1:31:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Cart Man: Ren its not matirix problem. The movie is based on Descarts evil genious, which was then modernized into the brain in vat argument. But Ren you have very good argument against the other this ones. The Key issue is that we want to be able to know the difference for the sake of knowledge.

The Cart Man formalization of Caveats argument from demarcation:

P1. If [you know the difference between dreaming or sleeping]=D then [you must have not been dreaming at one time.]=N
P2. [you know the difference between dreaming or sleeping]=d
C2. Therefore [you must have not been dreaming at one time.]=N

Final formula
P1. D->N
P2. D
C1. N

So we do know the difference and so we must have been awake at one time or another we wouldn't be able to have the conceptual demarcation.

Please tell me if I do injustice to you argument Caveats

The Cart Man: The question is what do we do with that now? unless someone reject this are there any more Ideas that we can add to evolve/ build ofs this arguement.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
caveat
Posts: 2,137
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7/31/2012 1:51:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/31/2012 12:45:59 PM, Ren wrote:
Indeed! However, how often is one born asleep?

If we're gently alluding to The Matrix, then I'd say that's a special case... it's probably something from which it'd be impossible to escape until someone wakes up, which was likewise the case in the movie.

Such an existence, though, is essentially indistinguishable from reality, thus becoming reality in a different sense, and therefore, requiring dreams in its own right, as well as everything else that comprises the full dimension of real experience.

It's essentially the same as comparing the human construct with humanity's basic, primeval state. Sure, everything we base our lives on is contrived, which wouldn't be the case if we were to intersperse our lives with our ecosystems, but that doesn't make it any less real as long as we continue to live it.

Interesting vantage point. If one is never to escape this matrix, the reality outside (R1) of it is irrelevant to the individual.

As you pointed out, this is a fringe case that is separated from the rest due to the duration of time spent and the experiences in R1 being so insignificant or non-existent. I agree with your solution that the matrix reality (R2) is equally as "real" if escape is not possible.

In the case where the significance of R2 is equal to to that of R1, you would only be able to distinguish the two realities from one another using your method of unknown information. Determining which is the dream product of the other is not possible this way.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/31/2012 2:39:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Cart Man: Aww I was going to make thread on that after. I will still make one for that question. But is not the some. As you argued we definitly now the difference between dreams and on not dream. Where in the matrix for philospher. The brain in the vat argument is that we don't know the difference. As a Scientist Descartes wants to know how to be sure of the difference. He uses God which is the all to convenient Gap filler. So the question is solving the problem without God.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/1/2012 4:17:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/31/2012 2:39:17 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Cart Man: Aww I was going to make thread on that after. I will still make one for that question. But is not the some. As you argued we definitly now the difference between dreams and on not dream. Where in the matrix for philospher. The brain in the vat argument is that we don't know the difference. As a Scientist Descartes wants to know how to be sure of the difference. He uses God which is the all to convenient Gap filler. So the question is solving the problem without God.

The Fool: So that it, we are stuck in a situation that we can't tell when we are dreaming or awake. You okay with that. The pure Faith route is sufficient??
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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8/2/2012 1:26:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/31/2012 12:45:59 PM, Ren wrote:
At 7/31/2012 12:26:29 PM, caveat wrote:
At 7/31/2012 12:17:35 PM, Ren wrote:
Ah, dreams. They are the beautiful proof that our existence and "reality" are mutually exclusive.

With the exception of Lucid Dreaming, I figure the only ways to tell the difference between dream states and reality is through both consensus and enduring histories.

In other words, what you know to be your entire life and everything it entails, as well as confirmation from other conscious beings that what is happening, really is happening.

How can you tell that you're not dreaming up other conscious beings, you ask?

Well, I'd say that's contingent on evidence that they are completely removed from your consciousness -- in other words, verifiably knowing different things than you know, as well as either presenting or interpreting them in ways that you can't conceive.

For example -- I can confirm I exist in "reality" every time I encounter something that abides by nature and reality's given rubric, but is nonetheless completley new to me. For example, I couldn't dream up my interaction here on DDO, as it contains people with intellects, perspectives, experience, and knowledge completely separate from my own, rendering my experiences here unimaginable.

But isn't that contingent on knowing with absolute certainty, at some point in the past, you were awake? Otherwise, you wouldn't know what you don't know.

Indeed! However, how often is one born asleep?

Maybe true, but do you remember your birth? Why not?

If we're gently alluding to The Matrix, then I'd say that's a special case... it's probably something from which it'd be impossible to escape until someone wakes up, which was likewise the case in the movie.

Such an existence, though, is essentially indistinguishable from reality, thus becoming reality in a different sense, and therefore, requiring dreams in its own right, as well as everything else that comprises the full dimension of real experience.

It's essentially the same as comparing the human construct with humanity's basic, primeval state. Sure, everything we base our lives on is contrived, which wouldn't be the case if we were to intersperse our lives with our ecosystems, but that doesn't make it any less real as long as we continue to live it.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts