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free will

truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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8/6/2012 11:16:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
How can there be free will without resorting to metaphysical?

(I am not discussing determinism, even if determinism is not true, that doesn't mean there can be free will without metaphysics.)
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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8/6/2012 3:59:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:16:29 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
How can there be free will without resorting to metaphysical?

(I am not discussing determinism, even if determinism is not true, that doesn't mean there can be free will without metaphysics.)

How do you mean? Can you explain why you think this?

Perhaps define metaphysics, how are you using the word?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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8/7/2012 8:19:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ok sorry my bad a used an ambiguous word. (Stanford encyclopedia -"It is not easy to say what metaphysics is..." "The word ‘metaphysics' is notoriously hard to define...")

Wikipedia - The word "metaphysics" derives from the Greek words... ("beyond", "upon" or "after") and ... (physiká) ("physics").

I am using it not in as its tecnical meaning, but the way it is commonly used:
immaterial, spiritual, non-physical.

( http://en.wikipedia.org... )
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/7/2012 11:08:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Once you establish that determinism is the law of the physical, which I agree with. It's dualism basically.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/7/2012 11:10:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 11:08:08 PM, phantom wrote:
Once you establish that determinism is the law of the physical, which I agree with. It's dualism basically.

Quantum Mechanics may make that a little challenging.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/7/2012 11:13:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 11:16:29 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
How can there be free will without resorting to metaphysical?

(I am not discussing determinism, even if determinism is not true, that doesn't mean there can be free will without metaphysics.)

It can't.

The purpose of science in general is to be able to make logical and accurate predictions based on past observations. The entire notion of "predicting" is counter to free will. So anything attempting to show or argue free will is going to have to resort to something other than science.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/8/2012 12:09:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 11:10:00 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/7/2012 11:08:08 PM, phantom wrote:
Once you establish that determinism is the law of the physical, which I agree with. It's dualism basically.

Quantum Mechanics may make that a little challenging.

Only to determinism, but it has absolutely nothing to say about free-will.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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8/8/2012 9:53:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 11:13:15 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/6/2012 11:16:29 AM, truthseeker613 wrote:
How can there be free will without resorting to metaphysical?

(I am not discussing determinism, even if determinism is not true, that doesn't mean there can be free will without metaphysics.)

It can't.

The purpose of science in general is to be able to make logical and accurate predictions based on past observations. The entire notion of "predicting" is counter to free will. So anything attempting to show or argue free will is going to have to resort to something other than science.

Is the notion of predictability really counter to free will?
If I offer one billion people ice cream chocolate or vanilla I can predict that at least on person will chose chocolate.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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8/14/2012 1:24:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 11:10:00 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/7/2012 11:08:08 PM, phantom wrote:
Once you establish that determinism is the law of the physical, which I agree with. It's dualism basically.

Quantum Mechanics may make that a little challenging.

This argument always struck me as the college-educated version of 'God of the Gaps'.
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