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Darwinist Morality

MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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8/30/2012 7:45:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
So I've been thinking about the source of objective morality a lot lately; I've tried attributing it to a God, but I can't really prove that to be true, so I looked for a non-theist answer. So I considered this: if morality is objective and there is a right way or wrong way, perhaps it is subject to the laws of evolution? Maybe a society that does not follow the objective moral code will be an inferior society to the one that does?

In Afghanistan it is moral to kill a female member of your family if she brings shame to your household; this is something that we would consider to be immoral in America, and we would be appalled by it. Furthermore, we would say that child rape is wrong, but it is common for Afghans to have sex with young boys.

Afghanistan is one of the most backwards and violent countries in the world, and I think it is because they do not follow the objective moral code that we have, which is based on evolution, (which in turn could have been initiated by a God.)

Western countries have been more prosperous and successful, because they have championed the cause of individual and human rights. Our civilization is superior, which allows us to enforce our moral code throughout the world, such as in Kosovo in 1999 and Iraq in 1991. If our civilization is stronger, because of our moral code, wouldn't that mean that an objective morality exists and that it works in a similar way to the free market?

As in, there is an invisible hand of morality that punishes those that break the objective code and rewards those that follow it.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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8/30/2012 8:06:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 7:45:14 AM, MrBrooks wrote:
So I've been thinking about the source of objective morality a lot lately; I've tried attributing it to a God, but I can't really prove that to be true, so I looked for a non-theist answer. So I considered this: if morality is objective and there is a right way or wrong way, perhaps it is subject to the laws of evolution? Maybe a society that does not follow the objective moral code will be an inferior society to the one that does?

In Afghanistan it is moral to kill a female member of your family if she brings shame to your household; this is something that we would consider to be immoral in America, and we would be appalled by it. Furthermore, we would say that child rape is wrong, but it is common for Afghans to have sex with young boys.

Afghanistan is one of the most backwards and violent countries in the world, and I think it is because they do not follow the objective moral code that we have, which is based on evolution, (which in turn could have been initiated by a God.)

Western countries have been more prosperous and successful, because they have championed the cause of individual and human rights. Our civilization is superior, which allows us to enforce our moral code throughout the world, such as in Kosovo in 1999 and Iraq in 1991. If our civilization is stronger, because of our moral code, wouldn't that mean that an objective morality exists and that it works in a similar way to the free market?

As in, there is an invisible hand of morality that punishes those that break the objective code and rewards those that follow it.

I do not think that this effect is entirely accurate. There are many places that are better for the downtrodden in the United States to live, yet we are economically stronger. In addition, China seems to have a pretty poor sense of moral code (at least its moral code is much different than our moral code), and yet it is the second most powerful nation on the planet.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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8/30/2012 8:07:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I do think that reduction of tyranny and oppression is conducive to economic growth, however. Nobel Prize winning economist Amartya Sen notes a similar idea in Development as Freedom.
MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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8/30/2012 8:24:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I do not think that this effect is entirely accurate. There are many places that are better for the downtrodden in the United States to live, yet we are economically stronger. In addition, China seems to have a pretty poor sense of moral code (at least its moral code is much different than our moral code), and yet it is the second most powerful nation on the planet.

I think that the idea would fit with the United States, because our civilization has been affected drastically in a negative way when we do things that are objectively wrong, such as the Vietnam War and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

I think the idea would also fit with China, because China has actually moved closer toward the "right" moral code by allowing for greater economic freedom. China has also become far less violent in the past as well: a good example is the political practice of not killing your political opponents that fall from grace. For these actions they are being rewarded by that invisible hand of morality.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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8/30/2012 8:34:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 8:24:12 AM, MrBrooks wrote:
I do not think that this effect is entirely accurate. There are many places that are better for the downtrodden in the United States to live, yet we are economically stronger. In addition, China seems to have a pretty poor sense of moral code (at least its moral code is much different than our moral code), and yet it is the second most powerful nation on the planet.

I think that the idea would fit with the United States, because our civilization has been affected drastically in a negative way when we do things that are objectively wrong, such as the Vietnam War and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

I think the idea would also fit with China, because China has actually moved closer toward the "right" moral code by allowing for greater economic freedom. China has also become far less violent in the past as well: a good example is the political practice of not killing your political opponents that fall from grace. For these actions they are being rewarded by that invisible hand of morality.

What about all of the other, peaceful nations that have a proper moral code but that are not as strong as China or the U.S.? I mean, China's political and social freedoms are basically nonexistent. It openly advocates placing "state's rights" (whatever that means) over human rights.
baggins
Posts: 855
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8/30/2012 1:31:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 7:45:14 AM, MrBrooks wrote:
So I've been thinking about the source of objective morality a lot lately; I've tried attributing it to a God, but I can't really prove that to be true, so I looked for a non-theist answer. So I considered this: if morality is objective and there is a right way or wrong way, perhaps it is subject to the laws of evolution? Maybe a society that does not follow the objective moral code will be an inferior society to the one that does?

The Nazis did their best to follow an evolution based objective morality. Killing handicapped people was near top of their list.

In Afghanistan it is moral to kill a female member of your family if she brings shame to your household; this is something that we would consider to be immoral in America, and we would be appalled by it. Furthermore, we would say that child rape is wrong, but it is common for Afghans to have sex with young boys.

You are making that up.

Incidentally things like pre-marital sex are considered pretty OK in USA now. In fact, most people don't even consider it as adultery. People in Afghanistan would certainly find it horrible.

Afghanistan is one of the most backwards and violent countries in the world, and I think it is because they do not follow the objective moral code that we have,...

Or maybe because all the followers of Darwin (UK, Russia and USA/NATO) have been trying to invade them for last few centuries.

...which is based on evolution, (which in turn could have been initiated by a God.)

Western countries have been more prosperous and successful, because they have championed the cause of individual and human rights.

Not human rights. Rather rights of Americans. Large number of Americans only care for Americans who die in conflicts, completely ignoring non-American civilians deaths.

...Our civilization is superior, which allows us to enforce our moral code throughout the world, such as in Kosovo in 1999 and Iraq in 1991. If our civilization is stronger, because of our moral code, wouldn't that mean that an objective morality exists and that it works in a similar way to the free market?

As in, there is an invisible hand of morality that punishes those that break the objective code and rewards those that follow it.

Are we really talking about morality here?
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/30/2012 1:34:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 7:45:14 AM, MrBrooks wrote:
So I've been thinking about the source of objective morality a lot lately; I've tried attributing it to a God, but I can't really prove that to be true, so I looked for a non-theist answer. So I considered this: if morality is objective and there is a right way or wrong way, perhaps it is subject to the laws of evolution? Maybe a society that does not follow the objective moral code will be an inferior society to the one that does?

In Afghanistan it is moral to kill a female member of your family if she brings shame to your household; this is something that we would consider to be immoral in America, and we would be appalled by it. Furthermore, we would say that child rape is wrong, but it is common for Afghans to have sex with young boys.

Afghanistan is one of the most backwards and violent countries in the world, and I think it is because they do not follow the objective moral code that we have, which is based on evolution, (which in turn could have been initiated by a God.)

Western countries have been more prosperous and successful, because they have championed the cause of individual and human rights. Our civilization is superior, which allows us to enforce our moral code throughout the world, such as in Kosovo in 1999 and Iraq in 1991. If our civilization is stronger, because of our moral code, wouldn't that mean that an objective morality exists and that it works in a similar way to the free market?

As in, there is an invisible hand of morality that punishes those that break the objective code and rewards those that follow it.

Evolution has to do with Genetics and who has more babies..

Not Culture, and political power.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
slo1
Posts: 4,316
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8/30/2012 4:28:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If our civilization is stronger, because of our moral code, wouldn't that mean that an objective morality exists and that it works in a similar way to the free market?

As in, there is an invisible hand of morality that punishes those that break the objective code and rewards those that follow it.

The examples of the ways morality has changed over time, is different at the same time between countries, and how it can link to economic growth argues against objective morality rather than for it.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/30/2012 4:55:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 1:31:37 PM, baggins wrote:
At 8/30/2012 7:45:14 AM, MrBrooks wrote:
So I've been thinking about the source of objective morality a lot lately; I've tried attributing it to a God, but I can't really prove that to be true, so I looked for a non-theist answer. So I considered this: if morality is objective and there is a right way or wrong way, perhaps it is subject to the laws of evolution? Maybe a society that does not follow the objective moral code will be an inferior society to the one that does?

The Nazis did their best to follow an evolution based objective morality. Killing handicapped people was near top of their list.

There is so much fail in this.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com...
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
jedipengiun
Posts: 169
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8/30/2012 5:01:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/30/2012 7:45:14 AM, MrBrooks wrote:
So I've been thinking about the source of objective morality a lot lately; I've tried attributing it to a God, but I can't really prove that to be true, so I looked for a non-theist answer. So I considered this: if morality is objective and there is a right way or wrong way, perhaps it is subject to the laws of evolution? Maybe a society that does not follow the objective moral code will be an inferior society to the one that does?

In Afghanistan it is moral to kill a female member of your family if she brings shame to your household; this is something that we would consider to be immoral in America, and we would be appalled by it. Furthermore, we would say that child rape is wrong, but it is common for Afghans to have sex with young boys.

Afghanistan is one of the most backwards and violent countries in the world, and I think it is because they do not follow the objective moral code that we have, which is based on evolution, (which in turn could have been initiated by a God.)

Western countries have been more prosperous and successful, because they have championed the cause of individual and human rights. Our civilization is superior, which allows us to enforce our moral code throughout the world, such as in Kosovo in 1999 and Iraq in 1991. If our civilization is stronger, because of our moral code, wouldn't that mean that an objective morality exists and that it works in a similar way to the free market?

As in, there is an invisible hand of morality that punishes those that break the objective code and rewards those that follow it.

You've been doing what I've been doing! :D I think, I hope.
Trying to ground ethics into the natural world.
I'll talk about some idea's in a message if you like?
Things that make me happy!

: At 6/22/2012 1:46:11 PM, Kinesis wrote:
: Also, as an Englishman I'm obligated to be prejudiced against gingers and the French.

: At 8/27/2012 10:00:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
: Every self-respecting philosopher needs to smoke a pipe.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/30/2012 5:37:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Objective morality cannot be grounded in evolution because morality is ever changing. In other words, if a mutation would be to arise in the gene pool, it would get rid of this "objective morality," hence making it not objective.

However, you can ground subjective morality as an IS in the evolutionary process.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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8/30/2012 8:33:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: No body uses it for morality, in the modern world.
But as far as talking about other countries is concerned you need to have rational morals, not bias one before you can be justified in measuring other sovierns moral.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL