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Y r so many atheists free-will libertarians?

phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/9/2012 3:30:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Not so many, but enough to make me wander. Determinism seems to be almost the default position if atheism were true. (Please don't bring up quantum mechanics. It has nothing to say about free-will. That's another discussion) Everything material operates in a cause and affect, or maybe sometimes random, mechanism. If atheism is true, everything including our mind is material, so our mind should also operate in such a way thus alleviating free-will. The way I see it, mind-body dualism is the only plausible stance you can take for free-will but atheists have no such option. It makes me wander why more atheists don't agree that free-will is an illusion.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/9/2012 3:44:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just from my own observation, I think that people who hold a persecuted set of beliefs tend to think they should compensate by being mainstream or overly-reasonable in every other dimension. So you'll also see many atheists taking great lengths to distance themselves from any "militant" atheist, and also taking great lengths to reject any other beliefs that seem too radical.

However, I agree, they should be materialists, and therefore reject freewill. If you don't believe in God or souls, then your philosophical worldview is at the mercy of empirical science.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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9/9/2012 3:54:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 3:30:14 PM, phantom wrote:
Not so many, but enough to make me wander. Determinism seems to be almost the default position if atheism were true. (Please don't bring up quantum mechanics. It has nothing to say about free-will. That's another discussion) Everything material operates in a cause and affect, or maybe sometimes random, mechanism. If atheism is true, everything including our mind is material, so our mind should also operate in such a way thus alleviating free-will. The way I see it, mind-body dualism is the only plausible stance you can take for free-will but atheists have no such option. It makes me wander why more atheists don't agree that free-will is an illusion.

atheism =/= materialism. I can see where you think the link is, but it doesn't make it so. In the same way that knowledge is not material, our will is not material.

Also, many atheists are determinist. A lot more than religious that are libertarians, I would say. Compatibilism would be a case that many would follow towards.
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/9/2012 3:59:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have yet to meet a free will advocate who believes his thought process is entirely random or uncaused.

So I'm not sure who you're arguing with.
Sidewalker
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9/9/2012 7:40:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 3:59:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
I have yet to meet a free will advocate who believes his thought process is entirely random or uncaused.

So I'm not sure who you're arguing with.

Same here, and yet, the argument against it seems to be the most common free will argument you see. This mysterious libertarian free will advocate never posts anything, but a lot of people have debates with him anyway.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
FREEDO
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9/9/2012 7:45:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Free will, like any other human concept, is a metaphor. However, I think it represents something legitimate that plays a practical part in discussion, be it casual or intellectual.
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fnord
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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9/9/2012 7:56:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 3:30:14 PM, phantom wrote:
Not so many, but enough to make me wander. Determinism seems to be almost the default position if atheism were true.

The Fool: IF "Lack in is a beliive of Supernatural God." [Then] "Determinism"

Now lets treat this as given:

Given-- Everything material operates in a cause and affect, or maybe sometimes random, mechanism. I

If Athiesm is true, everything including our mind is material, so our mind should also operate in such a way thus alleviating free-will.

Athiesm-->"Lack in the belief of God' [Then] Materialism ????????????

The Fool: IF Athiesm is true??

You mean if beliefing in God is a false belief.

The way I see it, mind-body dualism is the only plausible stance you can take for free-will but atheists have no such option.

The Fool: Belief has not effect on really. If we beleif the earth is choclate. Its still doesnt' effect anything.

It makes me wander why more atheists don't agree that free-will is an illusion.

The Fool: Wethere Free wil was to exist or not. Belief has absolutly nothing to do with it being an allusion or not.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
TombLikeBomb
Posts: 639
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9/9/2012 8:17:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Libertarians have the disadvantage that they rely mainly on a pre-Darwin economic and philosophic model. Atheism itself doesn't directly threaten it; however, atheism's major cause, Darwinism, does. Even Darwin was afflicted by libertarians' individualism, but that was before we knew of genes and how composed we are of competing parts and, more importantly, how much more they care about reproduction than longevity. Now the idea of rational self-interest is absurd not only to the learned but also to anyone who's watched their relative die a victim of both society and his former and thus other self. :)
From the time of the progressive era with the rise of public schooling through the post-WWII period, capital invaded the time workers had liberated from waged work and shaped it for purposes of social control. Perhaps the most obvious moment of this colonization was the re-incarceration in schools of the young (who were expelled from the factories by child labor laws) such that what might have been free time was structured to convert their life energies into labor power.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/9/2012 10:32:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 3:54:44 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 9/9/2012 3:30:14 PM, phantom wrote:
Not so many, but enough to make me wander. Determinism seems to be almost the default position if atheism were true. (Please don't bring up quantum mechanics. It has nothing to say about free-will. That's another discussion) Everything material operates in a cause and affect, or maybe sometimes random, mechanism. If atheism is true, everything including our mind is material, so our mind should also operate in such a way thus alleviating free-will. The way I see it, mind-body dualism is the only plausible stance you can take for free-will but atheists have no such option. It makes me wander why more atheists don't agree that free-will is an illusion.

atheism =/= materialism. I can see where you think the link is, but it doesn't make it so. In the same way that knowledge is not material, our will is not material.

You're correct. I tend to make assumptions. However I believe materialism is the most logical belief if atheism were true. Knowledge isn't material but everything that governs it is. Love is an idea but it's also a bunch of chemical reactions in our brain. I notice you kind of presuppose will. Yes I agree, if we have a will it's not material. That's why I say mind-body dualism is the only plausible libertarian position. But what determines action is material. Our mind determines action and our mind is, as far as atheism is concerned, most likely material.

Also, many atheists are determinist.

I know and stated such in my first sentence.

A lot more than religious that are libertarians, I would say. Compatibilism would be a case that many would follow towards.

Free-will is necessary for most religious principles. I can't see many except for people like paradox saying we don't have free-will.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/9/2012 10:34:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 3:59:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
I have yet to meet a free will advocate who believes his thought process is entirely random or uncaused.

So I'm not sure who you're arguing with.

I never stated, or implied that I'm aware of, any of that.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
slo1
Posts: 4,354
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9/9/2012 10:44:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 3:30:14 PM, phantom wrote:
Not so many, but enough to make me wander. Determinism seems to be almost the default position if atheism were true. (Please don't bring up quantum mechanics. It has nothing to say about free-will. That's another discussion) Everything material operates in a cause and affect, or maybe sometimes random, mechanism. If atheism is true, everything including our mind is material, so our mind should also operate in such a way thus alleviating free-will. The way I see it, mind-body dualism is the only plausible stance you can take for free-will but atheists have no such option. It makes me wander why more atheists don't agree that free-will is an illusion.

First it is much to early to agree with it one way or another. There is not enough understanding on how the brain works to make that call. With that said current understanding of the brain surely points to determinism. I think there are many who have been conditioned to the concept of free will. We all were taught good versus bad since we were kids, so it is ingrained. Then we learn a male with an extra y chromosome is more likely to have aggressive or bad behaviors because of the physical attributes, but it is hard if not impossible to shake the idea of being in control of behaviors. Also, if brain function was fully determinant it does a heck of a job hiding it and giving the appearance of free will.

In short it should not be surprising. As far as myself, it would not bother me in the least. There is enough variance in experience that it is virtual free will.

As far as throwing off quantum, I'm not certain it supports free will, but it is much to early to say it does not toss in some randomness. Some randomness in decision making and behaviors can open some very interesting concepts, but like you said another topic.

I'm more interested in how those who believe in free will because it is designed in by the creator interpret all the findings in science that are showing the brain makes a decision prior to us making a conscious decision. That has more ability to disrupt the populace than atheists moving towards deterministic view.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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9/10/2012 12:50:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sort of on topic: Many atheists and Libertarians and vice versa because both are ends in asserting reason and morality.
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mark.marrocco
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9/11/2012 12:30:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 3:30:14 PM, phantom wrote:
Not so many, but enough to make me wander. Determinism seems to be almost the default position if atheism were true. (Please don't bring up quantum mechanics. It has nothing to say about free-will. That's another discussion) Everything material operates in a cause and affect, or maybe sometimes random, mechanism.

Dennet makes a strong argument for free will within a deterministic universe in "Freedom Evolves." Basically, he says that deterministic processes can evolve in such a way that they create the "illusion" of free will. But, pragmatically-speaking, the illusion of free will is free will.

If atheism is true, everything including our mind is material, so our mind should also operate in such a way thus alleviating free-will.

Not necessarily. Atheism =/= Fundamental materialism.

The way I see it, mind-body dualism is the only plausible stance you can take for free-will but atheists have no such option. It makes me wander why more atheists don't agree that free-will is an illusion.

Why not? I think of mind-body dualism more as mind-body symbiosis. The brain allows for certain patterns of elctrochemical activity, which gives rise to consciousness, which is what we call the mind.

I think the problem with free will is the argument that we either have free will or do not. I am agnostic (i.e. atheistic) and I think that we have some free will, but it is limited by many factors. Life is the struggle of consciousness against these factors.
"Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence."