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# Can a machine lie?

 Posts: 22,657 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 3:29:57 PMPosted: 4 years agoThis is something I was recently considering. If you punch in 1 + 1 on a calculator, and you get a 3, did the calculator lie to you?You, and everyone else who took basic math classes, know that 1=1 obviously = 2.So if your calculator gave you a 3, did it lie to you?The main question is, can machines even lie, if they only do what they are programmed to do?We have to ask ourselves, what constitutes being a lie.Is a lie giving false information? Or is a lie giving false information while knowing the correct information?I'll check back on this forum later to see what you here at DDO have to say about it.We all go a little mad sometimes. Dresden Files Claimslist: https://docs.google.com...
 Posts: 356 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 3:32:29 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 3:29:57 PM, TUF wrote:This is something I was recently considering. If you punch in 1 + 1 on a calculator, and you get a 3, did the calculator lie to you?You, and everyone else who took basic math classes, know that 1=1 obviously = 2.So if your calculator gave you a 3, did it lie to you?The main question is, can machines even lie, if they only do what they are programmed to do?We have to ask ourselves, what constitutes being a lie.Is a lie giving false information? Or is a lie giving false information while knowing the correct information?I'll check back on this forum later to see what you here at DDO have to say about it.
 Posts: 14,075 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 3:55:06 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 3:29:57 PM, TUF wrote:This is something I was recently considering. If you punch in 1 + 1 on a calculator, and you get a 3, did the calculator lie to you?No.You, and everyone else who took basic math classes, know that 1=1 obviously = 2.So if your calculator gave you a 3, did it lie to you?The main question is, can machines even lie, if they only do what they are programmed to do?If they are programmed to lie.We have to ask ourselves, what constitutes being a lie.Is a lie giving false information? Or is a lie giving false information while knowing the correct information?I'll check back on this forum later to see what you here at DDO have to say about it.#UnbanTheMadman "Some will sell their dreams for small desires Or lose the race to rats Get caught in ticking traps And start to dream of somewhere To relax their restless flight Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..." ~ Rush
 Posts: 6,774 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 4:01:54 PMPosted: 4 years agoWhen teachers told their students that the earth was flat they weren't lying. That's because intention needs to exist. You have to purposefully tell a falsehood. So no, they can't lie."Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
 Posts: 3,484 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 4:05:56 PMPosted: 4 years agoNo, lying implies the intention of purposeful deceit. Machines aren't capable of that.
 Posts: 21,057 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 4:32:03 PMPosted: 4 years agoSure. But only if it's programmed to.GRAND POOBAH OF DDO fnord
 Posts: 12,253 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 4:32:36 PMPosted: 4 years agoCan a machine tell you a false statement? Yes.Can a machine tell you a false statement with the intent to mislead you? No."We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic." -- Murray Rothbard "The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended." -- Frederic Bastiat
 Posts: 10,527 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 4:32:57 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 4:32:03 PM, FREEDO wrote:Sure. But only if it's programmed to.https://www.youtube.com... https://rekonomics.wordpress.com... "A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
 Posts: 1,296 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 4:34:04 PMPosted: 4 years agoOnly if it is programmed to lie, or if it's intelligence vastly exceeds that of any human and it has a mind of it's own... Instead of the one it was programmed withDisciple of Koopin Right Hand Chicken of the Grand Poobah DDO Vice President FREEDO Servant of Kfc
 Posts: 21,057 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 4:35:42 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 4:05:56 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:No, lying implies the intention of purposeful deceit. Machines aren't capable of that.At 9/20/2012 4:32:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:Can a machine tell you a false statement? Yes.Can a machine tell you a false statement with the intent to mislead you? No.Lying only implies it knows the correct answer and gives you something different.Intent cannot be measured. It's only a vague perception we impose on things. So it's irrelevant.GRAND POOBAH OF DDO fnord
 Posts: 1,274 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 4:49:40 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 3:29:57 PM, TUF wrote:This is something I was recently considering. If you punch in 1 + 1 on a calculator, and you get a 3, did the calculator lie to you?You, and everyone else who took basic math classes, know that 1=1 obviously = 2.So if your calculator gave you a 3, did it lie to you?The main question is, can machines even lie, if they only do what they are programmed to do?We have to ask ourselves, what constitutes being a lie.Is a lie giving false information? Or is a lie giving false information while knowing the correct information?I'll check back on this forum later to see what you here at DDO have to say about it.Humans lie. Humans are constructed on the same principles that machines are so they are machines. If humans can lie then machines can lie.Computers lie a lot. Consider what happens when you log out of Windows and it says "Saving settings..." for ~60 seconds. I don't know what Windows is doing but it's not saving any settingsb (at least not for 60 seconds). The programer causes Windows to lie. But Windows itself, I suppose, is lying since it knows it isn't saving settings. But I suppose it wouldn't be right to call that a lie because, in software, information isn't integrated to a sufficent degree for true deception to occur. In other words, the code that prints "Saving settings..." to the screen isn't in any way connected to or aware of the true operations that are going on in the background while the screen says "Saving settings..."."If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
 Posts: 1,274 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 5:00:45 PMPosted: 4 years agoI once came across some source code that showed a progress bar to the user in an application. Since there was no real way to show the user how far along the operation was, the programmer had caused the progress bar to be increase in a random fashion to simulate what an authentic progress bar would do. The programmer wanted the user to think the software was still alive and kicking so they wouldn't get frustrated and close the program. But the progress bar was still intended to effectivly decieve the user.I thought this was morally wrong and removed the code LOL."If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
 Posts: 46 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 5:02:56 PMPosted: 4 years agoWhat I want to know is why the hell you have to user a calculator to find out what 1 plus 1 is. :D
 Posts: 3,484 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 5:12:10 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 4:35:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:At 9/20/2012 4:05:56 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:No, lying implies the intention of purposeful deceit. Machines aren't capable of that.At 9/20/2012 4:32:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:Can a machine tell you a false statement? Yes.Can a machine tell you a false statement with the intent to mislead you? No.Lying only implies it knows the correct answer and gives you something different.Intent cannot be measured. It's only a vague perception we impose on things. So it's irrelevant.Does it "know" the correct answer?I'm not getting your point with intent. Is anything that can't be measured irrelevant?
 Posts: 6,071 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 6:06:24 PMPosted: 4 years agoThe Fool: The can't lie the don't have intention."The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
 Posts: 22,657 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 6:20:57 PMPosted: 4 years agoother than vbacculum, it seems the general answer, is that something needs intent to lie for it to be a lie.If I tell you that there are cows on pluto, though I have no Idea whether there are cows on pluto (yet have a generally good Idea that pluto can probably not sustain that kind of life), can you then call my statement a lie?We all go a little mad sometimes. Dresden Files Claimslist: https://docs.google.com...
 Posts: 6,774 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 11:33:08 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 6:20:57 PM, TUF wrote:other than vbacculum, it seems the general answer, is that something needs intent to lie for it to be a lie.If I tell you that there are cows on pluto, though I have no Idea whether there are cows on pluto (yet have a generally good Idea that pluto can probably not sustain that kind of life), can you then call my statement a lie?Yes because you're faking knowledge."Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
 Posts: 1,274 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/20/2012 11:47:16 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 6:20:57 PM, TUF wrote:other than vbacculum, it seems the general answer, is that something needs intent to lie for it to be a lie.If I tell you that there are cows on pluto, though I have no Idea whether there are cows on pluto (yet have a generally good Idea that pluto can probably not sustain that kind of life), can you then call my statement a lie?When you say there are cows on Pluto, you are making two assertions: 1 There are cows on Pluto and 2: You know (or have some confidence that) there are cows on Pluto. If you don't, in fact, know that there are cows on Pluto then you are misrepresenting your conception of reality by making the statement, i.e., you are lying.This is why religion is a lie. People have no evidence for typical religious claims yet the assert them as if they have evidence of them (or the equivalence of evidence). So they lie (almost always to children) when they make these claims because they are asserting that 1: the claim is true and 2: they know the claim is true. This second, implicit claim makes the explicit claim a lie."If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
 Posts: 22,657 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/21/2012 2:09:07 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 11:33:08 PM, phantom wrote:At 9/20/2012 6:20:57 PM, TUF wrote:other than vbacculum, it seems the general answer, is that something needs intent to lie for it to be a lie.If I tell you that there are cows on pluto, though I have no Idea whether there are cows on pluto (yet have a generally good Idea that pluto can probably not sustain that kind of life), can you then call my statement a lie?Yes because you're faking knowledge.So when a computer faakes knowledge, it is lying, right?We all go a little mad sometimes. Dresden Files Claimslist: https://docs.google.com...
 Posts: 7,102 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/21/2012 3:34:31 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 3:29:57 PM, TUF wrote:This is something I was recently considering. If you punch in 1 + 1 on a calculator, and you get a 3, did the calculator lie to you?You, and everyone else who took basic math classes, know that 1=1 obviously = 2.So if your calculator gave you a 3, did it lie to you?The main question is, can machines even lie, if they only do what they are programmed to do?We have to ask ourselves, what constitutes being a lie.Is a lie giving false information? Or is a lie giving false information while knowing the correct information?I'll check back on this forum later to see what you here at DDO have to say about it.Lying requires intent. The best a machine can do is facilitate a lie.Thus, the current answer is no.
 Posts: 7,102 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/21/2012 3:38:46 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 4:49:40 PM, vbaculum wrote:At 9/20/2012 3:29:57 PM, TUF wrote:This is something I was recently considering. If you punch in 1 + 1 on a calculator, and you get a 3, did the calculator lie to you?You, and everyone else who took basic math classes, know that 1=1 obviously = 2.So if your calculator gave you a 3, did it lie to you?The main question is, can machines even lie, if they only do what they are programmed to do?We have to ask ourselves, what constitutes being a lie.Is a lie giving false information? Or is a lie giving false information while knowing the correct information?I'll check back on this forum later to see what you here at DDO have to say about it.Humans lie. Humans are constructed on the same principles that machines are so they are machines. If humans can lie then machines can lie.????Humans are constructed on the same principles are machines????Humans aren't constructed, and although we have based some of the principles we applied to machines on life, including our own manifestation, that doesn't mean that each entity (man and machine) directly correspond.Computers lie a lot. Consider what happens when you log out of Windows and it says "Saving settings..." for ~60 seconds. I don't know what Windows is doing but it's not saving any settingsb (at least not for 60 seconds). The programer causes Windows to lie. But Windows itself, I suppose, is lying since it knows it isn't saving settings.Interesting... Lol, I love getting real knowledge from people who know. ^_^But, that said, the computer isn't lying, because it's not aware of what it's displaying, and it's not displaying it with intent. Instead, it's presenting an image that it was programmed to present under given conditions.I'm not a determinist, so perhaps this is why your argument is lost on me.But I suppose it wouldn't be right to call that a lie because, in software, information isn't integrated to a sufficent degree for true deception to occur. In other words, the code that prints "Saving settings..." to the screen isn't in any way connected to or aware of the true operations that are going on in the background while the screen says "Saving settings...".Well, yeah.Exactly.
 Posts: 1,274 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/21/2012 4:13:40 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/21/2012 2:09:07 PM, TUF wrote:At 9/20/2012 11:33:08 PM, phantom wrote:At 9/20/2012 6:20:57 PM, TUF wrote:other than vbacculum, it seems the general answer, is that something needs intent to lie for it to be a lie.If I tell you that there are cows on pluto, though I have no Idea whether there are cows on pluto (yet have a generally good Idea that pluto can probably not sustain that kind of life), can you then call my statement a lie?Yes because you're faking knowledge.So when a computer faakes knowledge, it is lying, right?Yes, if software determines that, in order to reach its goal, it must misrepresent what it knows to be true to another rational agent, then it is lying. I don't know if AI has advanced to such an extent where this could happen though (at least, not in highly contrived context). So typically the lies computers tell us are those of the programmers."If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
 Posts: 1,274 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/21/2012 4:22:31 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/21/2012 3:38:46 PM, Ren wrote:At 9/20/2012 4:49:40 PM, vbaculum wrote:At 9/20/2012 3:29:57 PM, TUF wrote:This is something I was recently considering. If you punch in 1 + 1 on a calculator, and you get a 3, did the calculator lie to you?You, and everyone else who took basic math classes, know that 1=1 obviously = 2.So if your calculator gave you a 3, did it lie to you?The main question is, can machines even lie, if they only do what they are programmed to do?We have to ask ourselves, what constitutes being a lie.Is a lie giving false information? Or is a lie giving false information while knowing the correct information?I'll check back on this forum later to see what you here at DDO have to say about it.Humans lie. Humans are constructed on the same principles that machines are so they are machines. If humans can lie then machines can lie.????Humans are constructed on the same principles are machines????Humans aren't constructed, and although we have based some of the principles we applied to machines on life, including our own manifestation, that doesn't mean that each entity (man and machine) directly correspond.Constructed through the process of evolution, perhaps? I don't follow your whan you mean by "directly correspond".Human intelligence, like all animal intelligence, is the result of physical operations in the brain (perhaps I should have said "physical" where I said "mechanical" before). So a machine can *intend* deception (in principle) and thus can lie.Computers lie a lot. Consider what happens when you log out of Windows and it says "Saving settings..." for ~60 seconds. I don't know what Windows is doing but it's not saving any settingsb (at least not for 60 seconds). The programer causes Windows to lie. But Windows itself, I suppose, is lying since it knows it isn't saving settings.Interesting... Lol, I love getting real knowledge from people who know. ^_^But, that said, the computer isn't lying, because it's not aware of what it's displaying, and it's not displaying it with intent. Instead, it's presenting an image that it was programmed to present under given conditions.I'm not a determinist, so perhaps this is why your argument is lost on me.But I suppose it wouldn't be right to call that a lie because, in software, information isn't integrated to a sufficent degree for true deception to occur. In other words, the code that prints "Saving settings..." to the screen isn't in any way connected to or aware of the true operations that are going on in the background while the screen says "Saving settings...".Well, yeah.Exactly."If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
 Posts: 6,774 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/21/2012 7:08:13 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/21/2012 2:09:07 PM, TUF wrote:At 9/20/2012 11:33:08 PM, phantom wrote:At 9/20/2012 6:20:57 PM, TUF wrote:other than vbacculum, it seems the general answer, is that something needs intent to lie for it to be a lie.If I tell you that there are cows on pluto, though I have no Idea whether there are cows on pluto (yet have a generally good Idea that pluto can probably not sustain that kind of life), can you then call my statement a lie?Yes because you're faking knowledge.So when a computer faakes knowledge, it is lying, right?Well I should have said intentionally faking knowledge so no."Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
 Posts: 22,657 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/22/2012 12:57:23 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/21/2012 4:13:40 PM, vbaculum wrote:At 9/21/2012 2:09:07 PM, TUF wrote:At 9/20/2012 11:33:08 PM, phantom wrote:At 9/20/2012 6:20:57 PM, TUF wrote:other than vbacculum, it seems the general answer, is that something needs intent to lie for it to be a lie.If I tell you that there are cows on pluto, though I have no Idea whether there are cows on pluto (yet have a generally good Idea that pluto can probably not sustain that kind of life), can you then call my statement a lie?Yes because you're faking knowledge.So when a computer faakes knowledge, it is lying, right?Yes, if software determines that, in order to reach its goal, it must misrepresent what it knows to be true to another rational agent, then it is lying. I don't know if AI has advanced to such an extent where this could happen though (at least, not in highly contrived context). So typically the lies computers tell us are those of the programmers.Good point mate.We all go a little mad sometimes. Dresden Files Claimslist: https://docs.google.com...
 Posts: 22,657 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/22/2012 12:58:21 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/21/2012 7:08:13 PM, phantom wrote:At 9/21/2012 2:09:07 PM, TUF wrote:At 9/20/2012 11:33:08 PM, phantom wrote:At 9/20/2012 6:20:57 PM, TUF wrote:other than vbacculum, it seems the general answer, is that something needs intent to lie for it to be a lie.If I tell you that there are cows on pluto, though I have no Idea whether there are cows on pluto (yet have a generally good Idea that pluto can probably not sustain that kind of life), can you then call my statement a lie?Yes because you're faking knowledge.So when a computer faakes knowledge, it is lying, right?Well I should have said intentionally faking knowledge so no.I agree with you. Just hashing out the hazy lines :)We all go a little mad sometimes. Dresden Files Claimslist: https://docs.google.com...
 Posts: 9,320 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/22/2012 2:24:53 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 3:29:57 PM, TUF wrote:This is something I was recently considering. If you punch in 1 + 1 on a calculator, and you get a 3, did the calculator lie to you?You, and everyone else who took basic math classes, know that 1=1 obviously = 2.So if your calculator gave you a 3, did it lie to you?The main question is, can machines even lie, if they only do what they are programmed to do?We have to ask ourselves, what constitutes being a lie.Is a lie giving false information? Or is a lie giving false information while knowing the correct information?I'll check back on this forum later to see what you here at DDO have to say about it.No, it tells you that you have committed an OE "Operator Error" You pushed the wrong keys. Electronics don't fail that way. The only way a calculator would tell you 1+1=3 is to physicly change the chip programming. Computers and calculators only do what you tell them to do.
 Posts: 6,924 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/22/2012 7:30:08 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 9/20/2012 3:29:57 PM, TUF wrote:This is something I was recently considering. If you punch in 1 + 1 on a calculator, and you get a 3, did the calculator lie to you?You, and everyone else who took basic math classes, know that 1=1 obviously = 2.So if your calculator gave you a 3, did it lie to you?The main question is, can machines even lie, if they only do what they are programmed to do?We have to ask ourselves, what constitutes being a lie.Is a lie giving false information? Or is a lie giving false information while knowing the correct information?I'll check back on this forum later to see what you here at DDO have to say about it.If you lived in 5,000 B.C., and you asked someone if the world was a spheroid existing in a vacuum, and they said "no, the earth is flat" are they lying even if they've been told that and truly believe that?They have provided you with misinformation, so how would it be different from your example of the calculator?
 Posts: 9,512 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/23/2012 2:34:32 PMPosted: 4 years agoIf it's the case that lying only requires giving false information, then what's the difference between lying and being wrong about something.See, I think that there are three things going on:1. Being Wrong: you have no intent to deceive, and are sincerely committed to whatever you're advancing. You just happen to be out of line with what is actually te case.2. Lying: you have intent to deceive, and you know that you're advancing something false.3. Bullshitting (as advanced by Frankfurt): you have an intent to manipulate, but you don't care (or know) whether what you're advancing is right or wrong--you're merely trying to be persuasive.On my view, it seems that machines can only ever accomplish the first. Machines have no interests, because they're only fancy calculators, which means that they cannot in principle be motivated to deceive.Humans, on the other hand, can do all three. We can be sincere-but-wrong about different propositions, we can intentionally lead people from the truth (e.g., "I didn't take any cookies from the cookie jar"), and we can bullsh*t, which is what formal competitive debate is all about--you're just trying to win the round, regardless of whether you really buy what you're advancing.The "cows on Pluto" bit could, on this view, be construed as either of the latter two, since what's relevant is the way the intent plays out--liars care about the truth, but want to avoid it. Bullshitters just want to be persuasive, and don't care what's actually the case. Machines, on the other hand, are unmotivated. They just get stuff and apply non-emotive algorithms. If we could demonstrate that machines pursue interests, then we could say that lying is in principle possible for them. Otherwise, they're just a good example of rationality separated from everything else.
 Posts: 9,512 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 9/23/2012 2:38:30 PMPosted: 4 years agoI guess the simple way of parsing it out is to say that what differentiates human and artificial cognition is response capacity. Because we have interests that cause us to react by evaluating and adapting, we can lie. We draw a conclusion, and we say "if X is true, but I have an interest in Y, then Z." So, when we come to conclusions, we do stuff about them. Machines can spit out the same answers, but it doesn't do anything with them.