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Hedonism

Ren
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9/30/2012 6:03:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Never discussed.

I scored particularly high in this particular philosophical perspective recently, and only a couple of others, and I wanted to thus open the discussion.

How do we feel about that? Counter/pro morality? Consistent/contradictory to existentialism/objectivism/any other ism?

Thoughts? ^_^
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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9/30/2012 6:09:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 6:03:14 PM, Ren wrote:
Never discussed.

I scored particularly high in this particular philosophical perspective recently, and only a couple of others, and I wanted to thus open the discussion.

How do we feel about that? Counter/pro morality? Consistent/contradictory to existentialism/objectivism/any other ism?:

Depends on what one means when defining it. If it means, "Do everything you feel is good without hindrance," I think there's always circumstances where abstaining from immediate gratification benefits you more.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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9/30/2012 6:09:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I personally am generally grounded as an existentialist. And I personally don't see any real contradiction between hedonism and existentialism. I hold many hedonistic moral views as well.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DetectableNinja
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9/30/2012 6:10:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 6:09:11 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 9/30/2012 6:03:14 PM, Ren wrote:
Never discussed.

I scored particularly high in this particular philosophical perspective recently, and only a couple of others, and I wanted to thus open the discussion.

How do we feel about that? Counter/pro morality? Consistent/contradictory to existentialism/objectivism/any other ism?:

Depends on what one means when defining it. If it means, "Do everything you feel is good without hindrance," I think there's always circumstances where abstaining from immediate gratification benefits you more.

I generally think of hedonism as the philosophy that pleasure (and absence of pain) equals morality/what IS moral.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/30/2012 6:12:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If I understand it correctly, hedonism is simply individualistic utilitarianism. Or more correctly, that utilitarianism is holistic or pluralistic hedonism. The thing is, both schools start from the same basic premise i.e., that pleasure is an inherent and irreducible good while hedonists are individualistic about it whereas utilitarians are socialistic.

The thing I don't understand is how "good" is grounded in pleasure while "bad" is grounded in displeasure. And I'm sure JS Mill's terrible analogical argument isn't the only one that's been brought up. Does anyone know the general argument for the intrinsic worth of pleasure? And from that point, why utilitarians focus on aggregated pleasure while hedonists cite individual pleasure as of prime importance?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
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9/30/2012 6:14:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 6:09:46 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I personally am generally grounded as an existentialist. And I personally don't see any real contradiction between hedonism and existentialism. I hold many hedonistic moral views as well.

This. They're not mutually exclusive. Hedonism is a philosophy having to do with ethics and morality. Existentialism doesn't necessitate any moral claims of it's own, it's just a general philosophy of meaning that one can attach moral claims to.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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9/30/2012 6:29:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I generally think of hedonism as the philosophy that pleasure (and absence of pain) equals morality/what IS moral.:

Well, reading from Greco-Roman antiquity, it's not difficult to understand why people would like to do nothing but eat, sleep, and f*ck in utter opulence and without any restriction. But to me that would be a wasted life and a vain existence, even though I enjoy all of those things immensely.

Human beings desire a certain amount of pain and adversity to help define them. It's kind of like saying the most important things in life were those things that did not come easy, but that we struggled mightly to achieve.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
DetectableNinja
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9/30/2012 6:33:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 6:29:14 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I generally think of hedonism as the philosophy that pleasure (and absence of pain) equals morality/what IS moral.:

Well, reading from Greco-Roman antiquity, it's not difficult to understand why people would like to do nothing but eat, sleep, and f*ck in utter opulence and without any restriction. But to me that would be a wasted life and a vain existence, even though I enjoy all of those things immensely.

Human beings desire a certain amount of pain and adversity to help define them. It's kind of like saying the most important things in life were those things that did not come easy, but that we struggled mightly to achieve.

Well, I think it's a bit of a misnomer to interpret hedonism as that. In fact, hedonistic philosophies like Epicurus' actually manifested itself in a Buddhistic way, saying that desire is a source of pain. So followers of Epicurus lived in a very bare boned way.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
socialpinko
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9/30/2012 6:37:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
P_L, there are two types of hedonism, positive and negative. Positive hedonists would be the type that you're describing. They'd be people who see pleasure as intrinsically good and who thus act always to increase the amount of pleasure they experience. But this hasn't been dominant historically as far as philosophy is concerned. Philosophers (mostly those in Greek philosophy) interpreted hedonism negatively i.e., they saw pleasure as good and pain as the anti-thesis of good. So they sought simply to decrease the amount of unnecessary pain and suffering, not to simply have an orgy every night.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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9/30/2012 6:57:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 6:37:46 PM, socialpinko wrote:
P_L, there are two types of hedonism, positive and negative. Positive hedonists would be the type that you're describing. They'd be people who see pleasure as intrinsically good and who thus act always to increase the amount of pleasure they experience. But this hasn't been dominant historically as far as philosophy is concerned. Philosophers (mostly those in Greek philosophy) interpreted hedonism negatively i.e., they saw pleasure as good and pain as the anti-thesis of good. So they sought simply to decrease the amount of unnecessary pain and suffering, not to simply have an orgy every night.

*Learning shiit*

That's awesome.

I'm more the sort that engages hedonism on a general basis (pursues feeling as good as possible at all times), but has certain lines that I will not cross, based on a given morality that is both rational/logical and perceptively (as in, as far as I'm concerned) objective. What would one call that? ^_^
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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9/30/2012 7:02:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Everyone is a Hedonist in a way. We all do what gives us pleasure whether that be helping others or ourselves.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/30/2012 7:15:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 7:02:48 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
Everyone is a Hedonist in a way. We all do what gives us pleasure whether that be helping others or ourselves.

That's ethical egoism and I'm not so sure.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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9/30/2012 7:21:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 7:15:18 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 9/30/2012 7:02:48 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
Everyone is a Hedonist in a way. We all do what gives us pleasure whether that be helping others or ourselves.

That's ethical egoism and I'm not so sure.

Hedonism-- The ethical theory that pleasure is the highest good and proper aim of human life.

We all do what we want no matter what we do, this means we find pleasure in whatever we do.

Why you not so sure? Have you ever done something you didn't want to do? That is impossible because by doing it that means you want to.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/30/2012 7:25:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Similar to utilitarianism but easier to justify in my opinion. However, I don't think you can label any value the best intrinsic good. Values are subjective and plenty people don't seek pleasure.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
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9/30/2012 7:25:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 7:21:31 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 9/30/2012 7:15:18 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 9/30/2012 7:02:48 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
Everyone is a Hedonist in a way. We all do what gives us pleasure whether that be helping others or ourselves.

That's ethical egoism and I'm not so sure.

Hedonism-- The ethical theory that pleasure is the highest good and proper aim of human life.

We all do what we want no matter what we do, this means we find pleasure in whatever we do.

Why you not so sure? Have you ever done something you didn't want to do? That is impossible because by doing it that means you want to.

Preference =/= pleasure.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/30/2012 10:26:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would recommend that you read Epicurus; the man was absolutely brilliant. His scientific theories and moral ideas are surprisingly modern.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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9/30/2012 10:55:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 10:39:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There is no Hedonist.
All is done for suffering.

What world do you live in?
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
FREEDO
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10/1/2012 4:27:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 10:55:32 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 9/30/2012 10:39:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There is no Hedonist.
All is done for suffering.

What world do you live in?

That which is meant, for, as it were to say in the sense of it's own negations, is "be", in that which, being altogether separate from the question it begs, is the root idea behind that very same sentiment, one never known but by the opposing measure that spawned it.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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10/1/2012 6:15:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 6:12:29 PM, socialpinko wrote:
The thing I don't understand is how "good" is grounded in pleasure while "bad" is grounded in displeasure. And I'm sure JS Mill's terrible analogical argument isn't the only one that's been brought up. Does anyone know the general argument for the intrinsic worth of pleasure? And from that point, why utilitarians focus on aggregated pleasure while hedonists cite individual pleasure as of prime importance?

At the end of the day something being "good" means it Should Be Done.. That it is Important to have done.

There is no good reason to act But to seek enjoyment or distance yourself from pain.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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10/1/2012 8:23:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/1/2012 4:27:48 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/30/2012 10:55:32 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 9/30/2012 10:39:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There is no Hedonist.
All is done for suffering.

What world do you live in?

That which is meant, for, as it were to say in the sense of it's own negations, is "be", in that which, being altogether separate from the question it begs, is the root idea behind that very same sentiment, one never known but by the opposing measure that spawned it.

I've been trying to get you to understand that for so long. I am so proud of you, FREDO. *sheds single tear*
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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10/1/2012 7:57:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I embrace hedonism because I don't think it's mutually exclusive from altruism. Hedonism (to me) is seeking pleasure for yourself. I gain pleasure from making other people happy.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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10/1/2012 9:40:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think people often confuse pleasure and happiness when they're really two entirely different things. Happiness is far more important than pleasure in my opinion. If you're happy then you're content. If you have true content then you're without want. You're fine. You're satisfied. What greater possible thing could you achieve? Pleasure is merely a way to achieve that outcome but cannot by itself.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)