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Why is freedom a good thing?

Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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11/13/2012 4:26:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
So, Im sure you are familiar with the sensation of sitting on a sofa or doing a repetitious task when all of a sudden an idea or problem arises and all of a sudden you would murder millions to solve it. If you don't get that often then you must be in the minority of normal people. But if you do, here is something my curiosity has sprung on me:

Why do humans value freedom?

And of course, that led to the inevitable thinking that followed.
> If humans value freedom, then it must be good for a human
> It is quite possible that human opinions are wrong
> If freedom is actually undesirable and against our benefit, but we have been brought up in a culture that thinks the opposite, should we treat freedom as desirable until proven else-wise?
> If desire and happiness arise from a humans natural instincts of survival, (whatever is good for survival gets a reward neurotransmitter from the brain) then if oppression can be found to be beneficial for survival, desirability for freedom and non-freedom should switch.
C: If all premises are true, then we have no reason to think of freedom as a good thing.

I'm not going to try and prove the premises outside of a debate, due to lack of motivation in forum settings, and my lack of belief at their validity, but If someone could clear up this question for me and share their insights, I would appreciate it.
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/13/2012 4:28:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
We want what we want. Freedom is how you get what you want. Or, more appropriately, power.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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11/13/2012 6:52:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
For the same reason we want to live.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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11/13/2012 9:44:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 4:26:38 AM, Smithereens wrote:
So, Im sure you are familiar with the sensation of sitting on a sofa or doing a repetitious task when all of a sudden an idea or problem arises and all of a sudden you would murder millions to solve it. If you don't get that often then you must be in the minority of normal people. But if you do, here is something my curiosity has sprung on me:

I must be in the minority

Why do humans value freedom?

We don't want to be restricted in chains or oppressed in any way.
And of course, that led to the inevitable thinking that followed.
> If humans value freedom, then it must be good for a human
No, humans value freedom because it's better than the other option.
> It is quite possible that human opinions are wrong
So you think we do want to be oppressed?
> If freedom is actually undesirable and against our benefit, but we have been brought up in a culture that thinks the opposite, should we treat freedom as desirable until proven else-wise?
How is freedom undesirable?
> If desire and happiness arise from a humans natural instincts of survival, (whatever is good for survival gets a reward neurotransmitter from the brain) then if oppression can be found to be beneficial for survival, desirability for freedom and non-freedom should switch.
I doubt that's the case though.
C: If all premises are true, then we have no reason to think of freedom as a good thing.
Your premises is to vague to be close to even a personal opinion. What are you defining as freedom?
I think of freedom as my right to make my own decisions and think and act according to my own individual character.

I'm not going to try and prove the premises outside of a debate, due to lack of motivation in forum settings, and my lack of belief at their validity, but If someone could clear up this question for me and share their insights, I would appreciate it.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/13/2012 9:48:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 9:39:07 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
We are autonomous beings. We like to think we make our own choices.

fixed*
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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11/13/2012 9:50:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You can't objectively decide whether freedom is good or bad for all individuals. It's subjectively good for some, and subjectively bad for others. Some want to be free, while others want to be enslaved.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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11/13/2012 9:51:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 9:48:30 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/13/2012 9:39:07 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
We are autonomous beings. We like to think we make our own choices.

fixed*

Why is that? I tend to believe that free will and determinism are compatable.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/13/2012 10:16:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 9:51:46 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 11/13/2012 9:48:30 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/13/2012 9:39:07 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
We are autonomous beings. We like to think we make our own choices.

fixed*

Why is that? I tend to believe that free will and determinism are compatable.

So which definition of freewill do you agree with?

1. The ability to make choices and anticipate consequences before a panel of options.

2. Sole responsibility and control over one's actions.

If you go with the 1st definition, which a lot of compatibilists and libertarians use, then you could say that we do in fact have some kind of freewill. If you go with the 2nd definition, control leads to a causal regress, and so makes freewill impossible. The questions becomes, which definition is more accurate? I'd say the second one. The way we use freewill in law and the way we generally intuit it, holds the implication of sole responsibility and control. How can you say we have freewill just because we make choices and can anticipate consequences, when what choices we make and what consequences we are able to anticipate are a predetermined matter? When defining freewill it is imperative that we include control.

The problem with control is, again, a causal regress. So that's why freewill isn't logically coherent, that's also why the compatibilistic definition of freewill doesn't mean much and kind of avoids what the actual issue is.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Cometflash
Posts: 126
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11/14/2012 4:32:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't think freedom exists. :/

One is always restrictive by something.

I'm just thinking right now, can freedom and choice be compatible?
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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11/14/2012 4:42:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/14/2012 4:32:05 PM, Cometflash wrote:
I don't think freedom exists. :/

One is always restrictive by something.

I'm just thinking right now, can freedom and choice be compatible?

Explain freedom without choice?
Cometflash
Posts: 126
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11/14/2012 4:47:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/14/2012 4:42:12 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:32:05 PM, Cometflash wrote:
I don't think freedom exists. :/

One is always restrictive by something.

I'm just thinking right now, can freedom and choice be compatible?

Explain freedom without choice?

If one is being giving choices, how can it be freedom?
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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11/14/2012 10:51:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe that things are already set, but they were set by choices beforehand. Kind of like how in a movie, we are just watching a replay. Everything has already happened so we can rewind it and skip ahead and the like. However, the actors in the movie made the choices themselves. Basically I'm saying that we are watching free will after it was all done. We can't change anything, but it was already changed in the beginning.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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11/14/2012 11:00:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Freedom? A good thing? If freedom is limited to being a "good thing", then you're not actually free at all. ;)
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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11/15/2012 11:15:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/14/2012 4:47:02 PM, Cometflash wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:42:12 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:32:05 PM, Cometflash wrote:
I don't think freedom exists. :/

One is always restrictive by something.

I'm just thinking right now, can freedom and choice be compatible?

Explain freedom without choice?

If one is being giving choices, how can it be freedom?

What are you suggesting is limiting our choices, and when did our choices start to become limited?
Cometflash
Posts: 126
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11/15/2012 12:56:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 11:15:23 AM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:47:02 PM, Cometflash wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:42:12 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:32:05 PM, Cometflash wrote:
I don't think freedom exists. :/

One is always restrictive by something.

I'm just thinking right now, can freedom and choice be compatible?

Explain freedom without choice?

If one is being giving choices, how can it be freedom?

What are you suggesting is limiting our choices, and when did our choices start to become limited?

Not really, if you are free to do anything, you don't need to choose, you just do, not think about what can/should you do or can't/shouldn't. If there was such thing as freedom, there would be no need to bring such of thing as choices. When you bring up choices you are bringing up to choose what to do, so right there imply a limitation. If conditions whatever they are force you to choose, you are not really free. Those forces or condition are pretty much dictating what you can or cannot do. And even if you can do them all, you must choose one before the other, which is still controlling what you can or cannot do.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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11/15/2012 2:39:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 12:56:45 PM, Cometflash wrote:
At 11/15/2012 11:15:23 AM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:47:02 PM, Cometflash wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:42:12 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:32:05 PM, Cometflash wrote:
I don't think freedom exists. :/

One is always restrictive by something.

I'm just thinking right now, can freedom and choice be compatible?

Explain freedom without choice?

If one is being giving choices, how can it be freedom?

What are you suggesting is limiting our choices, and when did our choices start to become limited?

Not really, if you are free to do anything, you don't need to choose, you just do, not think about what can/should you do or can't/shouldn't. If there was such thing as freedom, there would be no need to bring such of thing as choices. When you bring up choices you are bringing up to choose what to do, so right there imply a limitation. If conditions whatever they are force you to choose, you are not really free. Those forces or condition are pretty much dictating what you can or cannot do. And even if you can do them all, you must choose one before the other, which is still controlling what you can or cannot do.

You evaded my questions.

Where/when did choices start to derive, and what/who governs the choices depicted?
Cometflash
Posts: 126
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11/15/2012 8:36:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 2:39:43 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/15/2012 12:56:45 PM, Cometflash wrote:
At 11/15/2012 11:15:23 AM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:47:02 PM, Cometflash wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:42:12 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/14/2012 4:32:05 PM, Cometflash wrote:
I don't think freedom exists. :/

One is always restrictive by something.

I'm just thinking right now, can freedom and choice be compatible?

Explain freedom without choice?

If one is being giving choices, how can it be freedom?

What are you suggesting is limiting our choices, and when did our choices start to become limited?

Not really, if you are free to do anything, you don't need to choose, you just do, not think about what can/should you do or can't/shouldn't. If there was such thing as freedom, there would be no need to bring such of thing as choices. When you bring up choices you are bringing up to choose what to do, so right there imply a limitation. If conditions whatever they are force you to choose, you are not really free. Those forces or condition are pretty much dictating what you can or cannot do. And even if you can do them all, you must choose one before the other, which is still controlling what you can or cannot do.

You evaded my questions.

Where/when did choices start to derive, and what/who governs the choices depicted?

Sorry, you are right, I did not answer your post. It is strange, I just read your post again and it looks as if I read it for the first time. I believe I must have rushed while I read, and read something you did not wrote, and reply to such.

To answer your post. Everything that surround us makes so choices can be formed, so is something that always existed.
I was tackling freedom and not choices, as it is what this thread is about. I always felt freedom did not existed, but as I wrote what I did in my first post, the thought that choices and freedom can't mix came to me, so I express them. I have the habit of doing that, of just writing up what I think and hit reply.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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11/15/2012 9:37:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 9:39:07 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
We are autonomous beings. We like to make our own choices.

<(8J)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Cometflash
Posts: 126
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11/16/2012 12:10:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 9:37:38 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 11/13/2012 9:39:07 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
We are autonomous beings. We like to make our own choices.

<(8J)

Is more like we take our choices...