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Altruism, other "good" things and evolution

badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/14/2012 7:44:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well, first of all, let's make altruism out of evolution, just so we know what we're dealing with -

Consider 50 tribes of early humans spread out upon a map, warring, what have you - humanity. One tribe varies from the others (mutates) in that its men become men of greater conviction, of greater dedication to a core, say. This variation (mutation) makes for a warring advantage and its proponents soon eradicate all competition claiming for themselves ancestry over all other humans to come...

And so was born man's dying for anything besides himself. And then all other "good" in humanity can be reconciled with that same evolution, too. Take love or loyalty on even a domestic level for example - easily seen as but its byproducts, and then from where else did they come? Survival of the fittest, right?

And so all "good" is born of man's dying for anything besides himself. And here's where the problem comes in - how fvcking subjective is that? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that. Where are we left as regards faith in humanity? Ammmmmmmmmm - well, we can program for ourselves some degree of security in others against others, and... err????? BLEAK, RIGHT?!?!?!?!? LOVE'S GONNA BLOW US ALL UP!1!1!!! Well, damn.

Although, we could maybe aim this instinctual sacrificing, perhaps unite the entirety of humanity, effectively eradicating the "bad" that presently goes with the "good". And then... well, I dunno... what does bleak mean again? what am I doing here? Damn.
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The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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11/14/2012 9:36:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/14/2012 7:44:53 PM, badger wrote:
Well, first of all, let's make altruism out of evolution, just so we know what we're dealing with -

At 11/14/2012 7:44:53 PM, badger wrote:: Well, first of all, let's make altruism out of evolution, just so we know what we're dealing with -

The Fool: first of all, evolution does not explain anything about the mind or consciousness or emotion or the good or origins of life in general. All it really says is that A happened and B, and then Y, and so on, and so on. For the grounding in evolution is simply "Sh!t Happened!", and then so on, and so forth.

Consider 50 tribes of early humans spread out upon a map, warring, what have you - humanity.

The Fool: There is no humanity in evolution. It only explains the mechanics, that is the order and history of what is perceived to as self animating objects. It is good for that, but from that same kind of thinking alone things are not even self animating, because of the laws of physics, which falls infinite regress of causes, until they don't understand. But rather than just say, "we don't understand", they prefer to go with, "we know that it was mystical bang from Nothing."

There is absolutely no humanity in evolution, there is only Homo sapiens.

A particular set of animating objects that come from other animating objects. For there is nothing else about physical observation alone that says anything else than that.

The Fool: Why does that happen?

Empric: Because there are even smaller and in parts, in animated parts, and then more smaller parts, and then random. A.k.a. "we have no idea talking about " or rather "we know that it's random"

The Fool: or at least that is what happened in my dream, but it's a mighty interesting dream I say......... take it for what it's worth.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/14/2012 9:48:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/14/2012 9:36:49 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 11/14/2012 7:44:53 PM, badger wrote:
Well, first of all, let's make altruism out of evolution, just so we know what we're dealing with -

At 11/14/2012 7:44:53 PM, badger wrote:: Well, first of all, let's make altruism out of evolution, just so we know what we're dealing with -

The Fool: first of all, evolution does not explain anything about the mind or consciousness or emotion or the good or origins of life in general. All it really says is that A happened and B, and then Y, and so on, and so on. For the grounding in evolution is simply "Sh!t Happened!", and then so on, and so forth.

Consider 50 tribes of early humans spread out upon a map, warring, what have you - humanity.

The Fool: There is no humanity in evolution. It only explains the mechanics, that is the order and history of what is perceived to as self animating objects. It is good for that, but from that same kind of thinking alone things are not even self animating, because of the laws of physics, which falls infinite regress of causes, until they don't understand. But rather than just say, "we don't understand", they prefer to go with, "we know that it was mystical bang from Nothing."

There is absolutely no humanity in evolution, there is only Homo sapiens.

A particular set of animating objects that come from other animating objects. For there is nothing else about physical observation alone that says anything else than that.

The Fool: Why does that happen?

Empric: Because there are even smaller and in parts, in animated parts, and then more smaller parts, and then random. A.k.a. "we have no idea talking about " or rather "we know that it's random"

The Fool: or at least that is what happened in my dream, but it's a mighty interesting dream I say......... take it for what it's worth.

dude, you completely missed the point. also, do you ever visit epicmafia anymore? ;)
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/14/2012 10:03:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
i actually have no idea what point you were trying to make even. you just don't like the term "humanity" being applied to... evolution? what? you dislike my reduction of "altruism?" it complies with natural selection and the random and stuff...? for what it's worth...?
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Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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11/14/2012 10:38:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I dare you to find me one example of pure altruism in nature.

inb4 bats
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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11/14/2012 10:39:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://global3.memecdn.com...
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/15/2012 7:10:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
also, feel free to correct my grammar if you wish for me to improve. i'm just generally pretty happy with being understood however.
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Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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11/15/2012 7:15:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 7:06:01 AM, badger wrote:
lordknuckle you sound an evil bastard. also:

Virtually all "altruism" can either be explained through kin selection or through mutual cooperation. Sometimes, genetics backfire and cause animals to think that other animals who aren't related to them are genetically related to them, thus urging them to perform altruistic tasks for the benefit of their own genes. Or, it can just be a calculated risk since animals used to live in colonies and many were often related to each other. Another reason is that through mutual cooperation, if both animals were to somewhat risk their lives for the other, then better things would occur rather than just one animal trying to survive i.e. bats giving each other blood.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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11/15/2012 7:19:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 7:18:03 AM, badger wrote:
read the OP, dude. i am utterly impressed with this show of smartness you've put on...

I can't read the OP because its grammar is just so horrendous.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/15/2012 7:27:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 7:19:52 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 11/15/2012 7:18:03 AM, badger wrote:
read the OP, dude. i am utterly impressed with this show of smartness you've put on...

I can't read the OP because its grammar is just so horrendous.

meaning you've no facebook friends/are socially inept? whatever, dude. i explained away altruism much better than you did :P
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muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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11/15/2012 7:34:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/14/2012 10:38:15 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I dare you to find me one example of pure altruism in nature.

inb4 bats

http://plato.stanford.edu...
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
baggins
Posts: 855
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11/15/2012 8:12:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/14/2012 10:38:15 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I dare you to find me one example of pure altruism in nature.

inb4 bats

No idea how you judge 'pure' altruism. We have no way of knowing 'intentions' of animals for sure. But incidences of altruism are quite common in nature.

http://www.digitaljournal.com...
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/15/2012 8:21:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
libertarianism is a bad political philosophy, as is dividedness in general. that is, in hoping we can one day just have the "good".
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Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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11/15/2012 5:36:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 7:34:42 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 11/14/2012 10:38:15 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I dare you to find me one example of pure altruism in nature.

inb4 bats

http://plato.stanford.edu...

Yeah... all of those are based off of kin selection and mutual cooperation, which when enacted, emplace benefits onto oneself's future propagation of their own genetic code, thus making the action selfish in nature.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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11/20/2012 2:53:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/14/2012 10:03:29 PM, badger wrote:
i actually have no idea what point you were trying to make even. you just don't like the term "humanity" being applied to... evolution? what? you dislike my reduction of "altruism?" it complies with natural selection and the random and stuff...? for what it's worth...?

At 11/14/2012 10:03:29 PM, badger wrote:: i actually have no idea what point you were trying to make even.

The Fool: I believe you, not everybody will.

you just don't like the term "humanity" being applied to... evolution?

The Fool: that is gold, unfortunately of the foolish sort, there are many things that glitter.

badger: what?

The Fool: What, what?

badger: you dislike my reduction of "altruism?"

The Fool: I like many things, and dislike others. In what little I know, Many wise men would say that your second attempt at reduction, is worse then the first. For I admit, that I cannot recognize, In what sense it was reduced, let alone whether or not it is reducible. For and entity is itself. If you have reduced it from what it was, we would be forced to say that it is now another thing which you speak about. In so far as, it either it is less then it was or more then is was, or something completely new and Foreign to the original notion of altruism that you started of with.

Is it of eminent essence, Formal, subjective or objective?

If it was one before what is it now?

Do you see the altruism, on the moving objects,?

Just describe were you visualize it, I think you need to recognize something before you can know what you are reducing it, to , for , and from. No?

Yawn, I am quite drowsy or did I just wake up. ..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/24/2012 12:25:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: that is gold, unfortunately of the foolish sort, there are many things that glitter.

badger: truth.

badger: what?

The Fool: What, what?

badger: you dislike my reduction of "altruism?"

The Fool: I like many things, and dislike others. In what little I know, Many wise men would say that your second attempt at reduction, is worse then the first. For I admit, that I cannot recognize, In what sense it was reduced, let alone whether or not it is reducible. For and entity is itself. If you have reduced it from what it was, we would be forced to say that it is now another thing which you speak about. In so far as, it either it is less then it was or more then is was, or something completely new and Foreign to the original notion of altruism that you started of with.

the reduction was for others who would have it such, and to emptiness :P

Is it of eminent essence, Formal, subjective or objective?

If it was one before what is it now?

Do you see the altruism, on the moving objects,?

Just describe were you visualize it, I think you need to recognize something before you can know what you are reducing it, to , for , and from. No?

Yawn, I am quite drowsy or did I just wake up. ..

so what would you do with "humanity" ?
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