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Changing beliefs

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/22/2012 6:42:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I can't help but be annoyed when people frequently change their beliefs. Logic did not change between the time you believed the first thing and the time you believed the second. So if you're ready to fully endorse the second, how do you justify ever believing the first? Is it that you were being intellectually dishonest or lazy? Is it that you were more concerned with winning an argument than actually finding what was correct? Is it that you were just emotionally drawn to the first one and got over it? There are clear answers and clear conclusions in any intellectual pursuit. Any variation from that truth is the product of some other malignant influence.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
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11/22/2012 6:43:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
yes, I'm referring to you socialpinko
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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11/22/2012 7:00:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 6:43:26 PM, 000ike wrote:
yes, I'm referring to you socialpinko

lolwut.

Logic doesn't change, our knowledge of relevant facts and application of logic does. Being at least a little humble and realizing we could be wrong is better than thinking that changing beliefs is a sign of intellectual weakness. And yes I'm referring to you.
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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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11/22/2012 7:01:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 7:00:00 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/22/2012 6:43:26 PM, 000ike wrote:
yes, I'm referring to you socialpinko

lolwut.

Logic doesn't change, our knowledge of relevant facts and application of logic does. Being at least a little humble and realizing we could be wrong is better than thinking that changing beliefs is a sign of intellectual weakness. And yes I'm referring to you.

What belief have you changed SP?
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/22/2012 7:04:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 7:01:57 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 11/22/2012 7:00:00 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/22/2012 6:43:26 PM, 000ike wrote:
yes, I'm referring to you socialpinko

lolwut.

Logic doesn't change, our knowledge of relevant facts and application of logic does. Being at least a little humble and realizing we could be wrong is better than thinking that changing beliefs is a sign of intellectual weakness. And yes I'm referring to you.

What belief have you changed SP?

he went from communism to the absolute opposite. though in fairness to him, he thought himself up some silly justification for doing so. he's trying to drown the rich or something like that...
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tvellalott
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11/22/2012 7:07:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Wait, this is about his change from socialism to capitalism?!
But that was fvcking years ago, wasn't it?

Also, can't someone change their beliefs if new information and ideas are introduced?
Seems silly to be like "Well I believe in this and fvck you if you have conflicting information."
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OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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11/22/2012 7:08:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are clear answers and clear conclusions in any intellectual pursuit.

I completely disagree, the problems that philosophy or political theory poses are complex and nuanced.

I really have no problems with people who change their views frequently especially as teenagers, but I wouldn't fault them for it as adults either. The pursuit of intellectual exploration endears people to me.
badger
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11/22/2012 7:12:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
there's no winning with capitalism. i refuted one of his points otherwise for him and he just ran away as far as i can see. and then if he changed on deciding that communism was unfeasible, how fvcking stupid is anarchism? preach to make sense to convey sentiment. no need to wrap it up in a whole load of bullsh1t.
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Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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11/22/2012 7:16:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 6:42:58 PM, 000ike wrote:
I can't help but be annoyed when people frequently change their beliefs. Logic did not change between the time you believed the first thing and the time you believed the second. So if you're ready to fully endorse the second, how do you justify ever believing the first? Is it that you were being intellectually dishonest or lazy? Is it that you were more concerned with winning an argument than actually finding what was correct? Is it that you were just emotionally drawn to the first one and got over it? There are clear answers and clear conclusions in any intellectual pursuit. Any variation from that truth is the product of some other malignant influence.

All ideology is inherently selfish. As your selfishness progresses, your ideology evolves to better suit it. The more liberal you are, the further you've progressed in your selfishness. Women's reproductive freedom sucks. Obama sucks. Biden is a boylover. Fiscal cliff. Bengazi. National credit rating.</endtroll>
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/22/2012 7:18:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 7:07:34 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Wait, this is about his change from socialism to capitalism?!
But that was fvcking years ago, wasn't it?

Also, can't someone change their beliefs if new information and ideas are introduced?
Seems silly to be like "Well I believe in this and fvck you if you have conflicting information."

*this isn't a rant, it's just unusually long.

Nope. It's his recent rejection of objective morality that annoyed me. He kept thinking that discourse ethics proved some kind of possible objective morality. He kept saying that irrational actions are inherently contradictory, therefore we ought not to perform them. I said that it was nonsequitur...and you can never derive an ought from an is, and just because something is contradictory does not mean you ought not do it. He denied the argument, he treated me like I was stupid.

Then there was the case for defending an ideology while being a subjectivist. I explained to him that there were base reasonable assumptions on mutual values we can use to present our arguments...and though the values themselves have no objectively sound basis, they do allow a predicate for coherent argumentation. So I can assume that you value, say, social justice, and then argue for the degree to which liberalism achieves it, even though social justice has no objective justification. SP said no. He treated me like I was stupid. Now, yesterday, I swear he was iterating the same argument almost word for word in defense of nihilism & anarchy.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
phantom
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11/22/2012 7:28:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
As a teenager with a premature mind, I'm bound to be unsure about my beliefs and should be. And seeing as I joined this site as a Conservative Christian creationist, thank God I've changed a ton.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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11/22/2012 7:28:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 7:12:30 PM, badger wrote:
there's no winning with capitalism.

Demonstrably false, as imperfect a system as it is.

i refuted one of his points otherwise for him and he just ran away as far as i can see.

Which point? What relevance does that have to capitalism as a whole?

and then if he changed on deciding that communism was unfeasible, how fvcking stupid is anarchism?

Not... stupid?

preach to make sense to convey sentiment. no need to wrap it up in a whole load of bullsh1t.

What?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/22/2012 7:33:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
tv i'ma just agree to disagree dude. spinko can detail it if he wants. there's no killing monopoly, might as well aim it.
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Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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11/22/2012 7:39:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 7:28:41 PM, phantom wrote:
As a teenager with a premature mind, I'm bound to be unsure about my beliefs and should be. And seeing as I joined this site as a Conservative Christian creationist, thank God I've changed a ton.

Similar here. Although I don't see myself ending in Atheism. I lean more toward Agnosticism. I just don't know WHAT to believe at this point. There is a liberation to that...not knowing. Like the burden of having to have an answer is gone. Being a fundamentalist on either side is exhausting and the uncertainty (while pretending to be certain) is an emotional roller-coaster.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/22/2012 7:47:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 7:08:14 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There are clear answers and clear conclusions in any intellectual pursuit.

I completely disagree, the problems that philosophy or political theory poses are complex and nuanced.

I really have no problems with people who change their views frequently especially as teenagers, but I wouldn't fault them for it as adults either. The pursuit of intellectual exploration endears people to me.

nuanced and complex, yes. Having no answer, no. Often times the answer is some kind of nihilism or another....and there's a basis for that. Human cognition is limited, and so everything we believe and learn rests on that subjective basis. When you want to deal with anything that transcends that wall of understanding, well then you've hit an impediment that must resolve in intellectual abstention....that includes, objective morality, God, and the validity of intuitive logic. Hence I am an atheist and objective morality ridiculous to me.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
OMGJustinBieber
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11/22/2012 7:56:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 7:47:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/22/2012 7:08:14 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
There are clear answers and clear conclusions in any intellectual pursuit.

I completely disagree, the problems that philosophy or political theory poses are complex and nuanced.

I really have no problems with people who change their views frequently especially as teenagers, but I wouldn't fault them for it as adults either. The pursuit of intellectual exploration endears people to me.

nuanced and complex, yes. Having no answer, no. Often times the answer is some kind of nihilism or another....and there's a basis for that. Human cognition is limited, and so everything we believe and learn rests on that subjective basis. When you want to deal with anything that transcends that wall of understanding, well then you've hit an impediment that must resolve in intellectual abstention....that includes, objective morality, God, and the validity of intuitive logic. Hence I am an atheist and objective morality ridiculous to me.

Just be aware that you are going to grow and that when you take new courses and read new material it can open up vastly different ways of perceiving the world. Just as your adoption of nihilism shook and overcame your past worldview, I wouldn't be surprised if over the next few years your current one came under heavy internal scrutiny. I know there's a lot of nihilists on DDO and I was a nihilist until I was 19 or so, but it's a surprisingly uncommon position among professionals in my experience. Of course, that doesn't prove nihilism wrong but it does seem to indicate that there's much more out there that you haven't yet been exposed to.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/22/2012 8:08:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 7:00:00 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/22/2012 6:43:26 PM, 000ike wrote:
yes, I'm referring to you socialpinko

lolwut.

Logic doesn't change, our knowledge of relevant facts and application of logic does. Being at least a little humble and realizing we could be wrong is better than thinking that changing beliefs is a sign of intellectual weakness. And yes I'm referring to you.

There's so much information on different sides of issues that its impossible to make any definite conclusions on anything. We can only use the information we currently have, and use that to create a belief system. One's value system can also change over time or a change in philosophical thinking.

That's like saying that Einstien shouldn't of revolutionalized physics because that would be intellectually dishonest or lazy, since physics doesn't change.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/22/2012 8:17:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 8:08:37 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/22/2012 7:00:00 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 11/22/2012 6:43:26 PM, 000ike wrote:
yes, I'm referring to you socialpinko

lolwut.

Logic doesn't change, our knowledge of relevant facts and application of logic does. Being at least a little humble and realizing we could be wrong is better than thinking that changing beliefs is a sign of intellectual weakness. And yes I'm referring to you.

There's so much information on different sides of issues that its impossible to make any definite conclusions on anything. We can only use the information we currently have, and use that to create a belief system. One's value system can also change over time or a change in philosophical thinking.

That's like saying that Einstien shouldn't of revolutionalized physics because that would be intellectually dishonest or lazy, since physics doesn't change.

politics is easy, people overcomplicate it. you either want a brutal game or you don't. and then if you do you can regulate it retardedly. capitalist innovation is a delusion.

blah... what the fvck are we doing here? does anyone want in on my band of robbers?
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jat93
Posts: 1,440
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11/22/2012 8:33:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 7:05:54 PM, badger wrote:
jat93 is another dude whose preaching doesn't make sense. just saying.

Say what?
Muted
Posts: 377
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11/22/2012 8:38:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 8:33:34 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/22/2012 7:05:54 PM, badger wrote:
jat93 is another dude whose preaching doesn't make sense. just saying.

Say what?

what?
Exterminate!!!!!!-Dalek.

The ability to speak does not make you a competent debater.

One does not simply do the rain dance.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/22/2012 8:39:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 8:33:34 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/22/2012 7:05:54 PM, badger wrote:
jat93 is another dude whose preaching doesn't make sense. just saying.

Say what?

lol, you'd make a perfect communist dude :P that "it has to come about by choice and thus libertarianism" bit... yeah, well, you could at least vouch for it more outright dude. people are dumb.
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