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Vegetarianism

WW
Posts: 100
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1/6/2013 8:12:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't want to cause suffering to animals (or contribute to their suffering) but are there any good argument against vegetarianism? I mean, the "I won't make a difference," and "I like meat (which I do)" seem to fall flat.

So, any good arguments against veg. and if none, what sites, articles, stuff should I visit to become one? (I don't want to faint in the middle of the road from lack of vitamins and stuff)
WW
Posts: 100
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1/6/2013 8:13:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is in the phi. section as I'm more interested to see (for now) if veg. is a sound theory.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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1/6/2013 8:19:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I look at it like this: the animals couldn't care less if you lived diedust or suffered. In the wild it's common. It's generally healthier to eat good meat, not red meat, but just good meat. It's natural. While vegetarians can eat all their food groups in a healthy way, even more healthy, it's hard to do.

Plus, most farm animals don't suffer I believe. Luxurious life, uite painless death. So if that's your main reason for not wanting to eat them, just buy the meat from those producers.
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RationalMadman
Posts: 354
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1/6/2013 8:31:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:19:37 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I look at it like this: the animals couldn't care less if you lived diedust or suffered. In the wild it's common. It's generally healthier to eat good meat, not red meat, but just good meat. It's natural. While vegetarians can eat all their food groups in a healthy way, even more healthy, it's hard to do.

Plus, most farm animals don't suffer I believe. Luxurious life, uite painless death. So if that's your main reason for not wanting to eat them, just buy the meat from those producers.

+1
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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1/6/2013 8:44:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:19:37 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I look at it like this: infants couldn't care less if you lived diedust or suffered. In the wild it's common. It's generally healthier to eat good meat, not red meat, but just good meat. It's natural. While vegetarians can eat all their food groups in a healthy way, even more healthy, it's hard to do.

Plus, most infants don't suffer I believe. Luxurious life, uite painless death. So if that's your main reason for not wanting to eat them, just buy the meat from those producers.

I don't think this argument works.

Anyway, every moral system assumes a starting point, if you go from the utilitarian one then vegetarianism generally follows. I'm completely against animal suffering or animal cruelty, but this is a separate matter from whether eating animals is justified given they're treated well and executed painlessly.
RationalMadman
Posts: 354
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1/6/2013 8:53:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:44:28 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:19:37 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I look at it like this: infants couldn't care less if you lived diedust or suffered. In the wild it's common. It's generally healthier to eat good meat, not red meat, but just good meat. It's natural. While vegetarians can eat all their food groups in a healthy way, even more healthy, it's hard to do.

Plus, most infants don't suffer I believe. Luxurious life, uite painless death. So if that's your main reason for not wanting to eat them, just buy the meat from those producers.

I don't think this argument works.

Anyway, every moral system assumes a starting point, if you go from the utilitarian one then vegetarianism generally follows. I'm completely against animal suffering or animal cruelty, but this is a separate matter from whether eating animals is justified given they're treated well and executed painlessly.

Infants care very much if their mother dies, heck she can't even leave them without a huge cry.
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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1/6/2013 8:59:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:53:44 AM, RationalMadman wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:44:28 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:19:37 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I look at it like this: infants couldn't care less if you lived diedust or suffered. In the wild it's common. It's generally healthier to eat good meat, not red meat, but just good meat. It's natural. While vegetarians can eat all their food groups in a healthy way, even more healthy, it's hard to do.

Plus, most infants don't suffer I believe. Luxurious life, uite painless death. So if that's your main reason for not wanting to eat them, just buy the meat from those producers.

I don't think this argument works.

Anyway, every moral system assumes a starting point, if you go from the utilitarian one then vegetarianism generally follows. I'm completely against animal suffering or animal cruelty, but this is a separate matter from whether eating animals is justified given they're treated well and executed painlessly.

Infants care very much if their mother dies, heck she can't even leave them without a huge cry.

Infants certainly aren't self-aware until much later on, the crying when their mother leaves is probably more instinctual...It's a difficult topic since we just can't get into an infant's mind. We could still use the example elsewhere - just because a psychopath or mentally disabled person can't care about people doesn't mean we can therefore eat them.
RationalMadman
Posts: 354
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1/6/2013 9:17:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:59:18 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:53:44 AM, RationalMadman wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:44:28 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:19:37 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I look at it like this: infants couldn't care less if you lived diedust or suffered. In the wild it's common. It's generally healthier to eat good meat, not red meat, but just good meat. It's natural. While vegetarians can eat all their food groups in a healthy way, even more healthy, it's hard to do.

Plus, most infants don't suffer I believe. Luxurious life, uite painless death. So if that's your main reason for not wanting to eat them, just buy the meat from those producers.

I don't think this argument works.

Anyway, every moral system assumes a starting point, if you go from the utilitarian one then vegetarianism generally follows. I'm completely against animal suffering or animal cruelty, but this is a separate matter from whether eating animals is justified given they're treated well and executed painlessly.

Infants care very much if their mother dies, heck she can't even leave them without a huge cry.

Infants certainly aren't self-aware until much later on, the crying when their mother leaves is probably more instinctual...It's a difficult topic since we just can't get into an infant's mind. We could still use the example elsewhere - just because a psychopath or mentally disabled person can't care about people doesn't mean we can therefore eat them.

Eating a predator such as a psychopath is stupid, the food chain means energy is lost veyr much at each stage and eating herbivores is a good deal.

If I could get away with it I'd eat a vegetarian psychopath.
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
RationalMadman
Posts: 354
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1/6/2013 9:17:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 9:17:12 AM, RationalMadman wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:59:18 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:53:44 AM, RationalMadman wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:44:28 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/6/2013 8:19:37 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I look at it like this: infants couldn't care less if you lived diedust or suffered. In the wild it's common. It's generally healthier to eat good meat, not red meat, but just good meat. It's natural. While vegetarians can eat all their food groups in a healthy way, even more healthy, it's hard to do.

Plus, most infants don't suffer I believe. Luxurious life, uite painless death. So if that's your main reason for not wanting to eat them, just buy the meat from those producers.

I don't think this argument works.

Anyway, every moral system assumes a starting point, if you go from the utilitarian one then vegetarianism generally follows. I'm completely against animal suffering or animal cruelty, but this is a separate matter from whether eating animals is justified given they're treated well and executed painlessly.

Infants care very much if their mother dies, heck she can't even leave them without a huge cry.

Infants certainly aren't self-aware until much later on, the crying when their mother leaves is probably more instinctual...It's a difficult topic since we just can't get into an infant's mind. We could still use the example elsewhere - just because a psychopath or mentally disabled person can't care about people doesn't mean we can therefore eat them.

Eating a predator such as a psychopath is stupid, the food chain means energy is lost veyr much at each stage and eating herbivores is a good deal.

If I could get away with it I'd eat a vegetarian psychopath.

plz don't think I'll act on it. I know the law will never let me get away with it.
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
RationalMadman
Posts: 354
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1/6/2013 10:33:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 9:48:13 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Farm animals don't suffer? Do you even know what factory farming is? Why do you think meat is so cheap in the United States?

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/6/2013 12:11:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:19:37 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I look at it like this: the animals couldn't care less if you lived diedust or suffered. In the wild it's common.

So because we're better than them, we should be as bad as them.

It's generally healthier to eat good meat, not red meat, but just good meat. It's natural. While vegetarians can eat all their food groups in a healthy way, even more healthy, it's hard to do.

Plus, most farm animals don't suffer I believe. Luxurious life, uite painless death.

You couldn't be more wrong. The suffering that goes on in almost all the factories is atrocious. How do you think they can provide meat for so cheap and to such a large amount of people? You can't be both ethical and compete when it comes to meat supplying. There are farms like you mentioned, but they're small, expensive and very much in the minority.

So if that's your main reason for not wanting to eat them, just buy the meat from those producers.

But why does it matter any way? Killing them poorly or killing them nicely (if there is even such a way), it's still killing them.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/6/2013 12:15:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Personally, I think animal ethics is quite relative. I don't condemn third world countries for eating meat to survive and I wouldn't have much problem eating meat if I was struggling myself. But that's why necessary killing and unnecessary killing is a very important distinction.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
RationalMadman
Posts: 354
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1/6/2013 12:34:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:15:31 PM, phantom wrote:
Personally, I think animal ethics is quite relative. I don't condemn third world countries for eating meat to survive and I wouldn't have much problem eating meat if I was struggling myself. But that's why necessary killing and unnecessary killing is a very important distinction.

It is necessary to kill them so they don't overpopulate and dominate us.
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/6/2013 12:39:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:34:45 PM, RationalMadman wrote:
At 1/6/2013 12:15:31 PM, phantom wrote:
Personally, I think animal ethics is quite relative. I don't condemn third world countries for eating meat to survive and I wouldn't have much problem eating meat if I was struggling myself. But that's why necessary killing and unnecessary killing is a very important distinction.

It is necessary to kill them so they don't overpopulate and dominate us.

Oh, well maybe if we didn't try to overpopulate them so much to fill our bellies, there wouldn't be so many of them.

How would they dominate us? Is that really a serious threat?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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1/6/2013 1:27:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 1:18:23 PM, WW wrote:
So, no good objections? Anyone?

Take a different starting point? Sometimes I wonder whether the starting points are incommensurable.

I don't know, there seems to be very few people who are ardently anti-vegetarianism - most people don't really hold meat eating in itself to be immoral and if you abstained from it they wouldn't really mind. I fall into that camp, and it would seem that most people would consider the BoP to be on the vegetarians if they want to make that case. If they defend vegetarianism via utilitarianism I would object to the entire framework, but if it's for religious considerations that's beyond my willingness to engage.
RationalMadman
Posts: 354
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1/6/2013 1:32:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 1:18:23 PM, WW wrote:
So, no good objections? Anyone?

We are the dominators, we need to maintain our place in the hierarchy... simple as that.
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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1/6/2013 1:33:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:19:37 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I look at it like this: the animals couldn't care less if you lived diedust or suffered. In the wild it's common. It's generally healthier to eat good meat, not red meat, but just good meat. It's natural. While vegetarians can eat all their food groups in a healthy way, even more healthy, it's hard to do.
Naturalistic fallacy.
Plus, most farm animals don't suffer I believe. Luxurious life, uite painless death. So if that's your main reason for not wanting to eat them, just buy the meat from those producers.
#UnbanTheMadman

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Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
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~ Rush
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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1/6/2013 1:36:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I hate to say it, but I put the enjoyment I get from eating meat over the displeasure of the animals.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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1/6/2013 3:22:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:12:09 AM, WW wrote:
I don't want to cause suffering to animals (or contribute to their suffering) but are there any good argument against vegetarianism? I mean, the "I won't make a difference," and "I like meat (which I do)" seem to fall flat.

So, any good arguments against veg. and if none, what sites, articles, stuff should I visit to become one? (I don't want to faint in the middle of the road from lack of vitamins and stuff)

It is easy to have a healthy vegetarian diet. I've been an on/off pescetarian for a few years and was a strict vegetarian for about 6-8 years before that. I can't remember. Anyway, I went and got thorough blood tests done recently and everything was completely normal. You can be lacking in vitamins from any kind of diet. It just depends on how healthy you are. Some people don't eat dairy. Some people don't eat fruits. Some people don't eat veggies. And some people don't eat meat. It is possible to get all the necessary nutrients in any of these scenarios.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
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RationalMadman
Posts: 354
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1/6/2013 3:33:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 3:29:42 PM, Agent_Orange wrote:
Why even have an argument against vegetarianism? That's stupid.

No. But you are.
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
Agent_Orange
Posts: 2,252
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1/6/2013 4:45:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 3:33:53 PM, RationalMadman wrote:
At 1/6/2013 3:29:42 PM, Agent_Orange wrote:
Why even have an argument against vegetarianism? That's stupid.

No. But you are.

I'm stupid because I don't see why anyone would argue against vegetarianism? Well why don't you enlighten the fvck outta me? Why shouldn't someone become a vegetarian?
#BlackLivesMatter
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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1/6/2013 4:58:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 10:33:31 AM, RationalMadman wrote:
At 1/6/2013 9:48:13 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Farm animals don't suffer? Do you even know what factory farming is? Why do you think meat is so cheap in the United States?

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.

The next time I talk about vegetarianism, I'm using this line.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/6/2013 5:01:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:15:31 PM, phantom wrote:
Personally, I think animal ethics is quite relative. I don't condemn third world countries for eating meat to survive and I wouldn't have much problem eating meat if I was struggling myself. But that's why necessary killing and unnecessary killing is a very important distinction.

Meat is actually more expensive in many countries than vegetables are. It's cheaper in the US because of factory farming and because the government subsidizes the meat industry.
Wnope
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1/6/2013 5:01:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:12:09 AM, WW wrote:
I don't want to cause suffering to animals (or contribute to their suffering) but are there any good argument against vegetarianism? I mean, the "I won't make a difference," and "I like meat (which I do)" seem to fall flat.

So, any good arguments against veg. and if none, what sites, articles, stuff should I visit to become one? (I don't want to faint in the middle of the road from lack of vitamins and stuff)

There is a question of when you should or shouldn't consider yourself a hypocrite.

For instance, if your justification for vegetarianism is based on some amount of animal suffering, how can you simultaneously wear leather, drink milk (which comes from separating calves from mothers at birth), create any kind of pollution (water, air, etc) that would lead to death of wildlife, etc?
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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1/6/2013 6:02:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 8:12:09 AM, WW wrote:
I don't want to cause suffering to animals (or contribute to their suffering) but are there any good argument against vegetarianism? I mean, the "I won't make a difference," and "I like meat (which I do)" seem to fall flat.

The best ethical argument against veganism/vegetarianism that I've come across is the "It won't make a difference" argument. But, like you said, it doesn't hold up.

None of the health arguments against veganism/vegetarianism have adequate scientific support to be accepted as strong arguments. People will say things like: vegetarians can't get enough protein, iron, etc., but they are not able to substantiate those claims with scientific evidence.

The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada fully endorse vegan (and thus vegetarian) diets for all stages of the life-cycle (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...).


So, any good arguments against veg. and if none, what sites, articles, stuff should I visit to become one? (I don't want to faint in the middle of the road from lack of vitamins and stuff)

Some people say they feel better and have more energy when they give up animal products. Others say they have withdrawal symptoms. I felt no difference.

There are a lot of good tips at this live thread for being a vegetarian: http://www.debate.org...

Here is a really good intro site to veganism that covers all kinds of stuff: http://vegankit.com...
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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1/6/2013 6:05:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
When I said farm animals, I meant non-factory farming. I don't really consider those farming. I've seen all the images and stuff, I know about that. I'm talking about the traditional farming. Most don't suffer in that. Live quite nice lives actually.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Wnope
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1/7/2013 2:52:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 6:05:32 PM, OberHerr wrote:
When I said farm animals, I meant non-factory farming. I don't really consider those farming. I've seen all the images and stuff, I know about that. I'm talking about the traditional farming. Most don't suffer in that. Live quite nice lives actually.

Right, but good luck finding that sort of farm animal anywhere in your local grocery store.