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A fetus is morally equivalent to an adult.

MouthWash
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1/17/2013 12:05:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Because it has the capacity for intelligence as a part of its nature, like a man under amnesia. Same with babies- they aren't any more developed than an animal, but they have value because of what they grow to be.

Does anyone have even the faintest objection to this? Let's hear it, please, because I haven't heard anything that even addresses this issue.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/17/2013 12:17:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
How does potential equate to equivalence?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
MouthWash
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1/17/2013 12:19:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
*sigh*

They're essentially the same as people who are unconscious.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
phantom
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1/17/2013 12:22:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:19:34 AM, MouthWash wrote:
*sigh*

They're essentially the same as people who are unconscious.

So they're the same as me when I'm asleep? Or are you referring more to a coma scenario?

Personally I value the life of someone not in a coma than one in one.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
bladerunner060
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1/17/2013 12:25:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:19:34 AM, MouthWash wrote:
*sigh*

They're essentially the same as people who are unconscious.

How? There is no consciousness yet, as opposed to unconscious people who have possessed consciousness.
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MouthWash
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1/17/2013 12:37:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:22:29 AM, phantom wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:19:34 AM, MouthWash wrote:
*sigh*

They're essentially the same as people who are unconscious.

So they're the same as me when I'm asleep? Or are you referring more to a coma scenario?

Personally I value the life of someone not in a coma than one in one.

Yeah, it's like that, except that the unconsciousness state is a normal part of development and the baby will naturally "grow out of it." So, morally, it's like a sleeping person.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
MouthWash
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1/17/2013 12:38:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:25:14 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:19:34 AM, MouthWash wrote:
*sigh*

They're essentially the same as people who are unconscious.

How? There is no consciousness yet, as opposed to unconscious people who have possessed consciousness.

Why does the initial gaining of consciousness give it moral value?
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
bladerunner060
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1/17/2013 12:42:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:38:07 AM, MouthWash wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:25:14 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:19:34 AM, MouthWash wrote:
*sigh*

They're essentially the same as people who are unconscious.

How? There is no consciousness yet, as opposed to unconscious people who have possessed consciousness.

Why does the initial gaining of consciousness give it moral value?

Well, "unconscious" people still have a consciousness...sleeping people dream, after all, so even if "unconscious", there is still brain activity, still a consciousness that is a self. Fetuses do not have that. Did you mean brain dead?
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1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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1/17/2013 12:42:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:22:29 AM, phantom wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:19:34 AM, Mouthwash wrote:
*sigh*

They're essentially the same as people who are unconscious.

So they're the same as me when I'm asleep? Or are you referring more to a coma scenario?

Personally I value the life of someone not in a coma than one in one.

Even if he were talking about a coma.
That is irrelevant, his point is that a person in a coma should not be killed, particularly if he is expected to recover, & live many more decades.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
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phantom
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1/17/2013 12:52:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:42:56 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:22:29 AM, phantom wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:19:34 AM, Mouthwash wrote:
*sigh*

They're essentially the same as people who are unconscious.

So they're the same as me when I'm asleep? Or are you referring more to a coma scenario?

Personally I value the life of someone not in a coma than one in one.

Even if he were talking about a coma.
That is irrelevant, his point is that a person in a coma should not be killed, particularly if he is expected to recover, & live many more decades.

We're not talking about the moral permissibility of killing fetus's. We're talking about whether they're equivalent in ethical terms.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
bladerunner060
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1/17/2013 12:56:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's worth pointing out that there are no occasions in which consciousness provably ceases, but then resumes, once it has started.

Obviously, death makes consciousness cease (in the absence of the "soul" idea), but it certainly does not resume. PVS is not complete cessation of the consciousness; brain death is.
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phantom
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1/17/2013 12:58:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:37:19 AM, MouthWash wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:22:29 AM, phantom wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:19:34 AM, MouthWash wrote:
*sigh*

They're essentially the same as people who are unconscious.

So they're the same as me when I'm asleep? Or are you referring more to a coma scenario?

Personally I value the life of someone not in a coma than one in one.

Yeah, it's like that, except that the unconsciousness state is a normal part of development and the baby will naturally "grow out of it." So, morally, it's like a sleeping person.

Except with a sleeping person, they were conscious previously. With a fetus, there never was any consciousness. Surely that bares some weight? The facts are different. There should be some variation in morality. Consciousness is the most important thing about defining a person. When there's no consciousness and never was any, the being that you are killing isn't even a full being. In other words, there's no consciousness that is being affected. When you think of "you" the most important property of you is your consciousness. That fetus never posses that. He will in the future, but that doesn't matter as much as someone had also had it in the past.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
YYW
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1/17/2013 12:59:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:05:00 AM, MouthWash wrote:
Because it has the capacity for intelligence as a part of its nature, like a man under amnesia. Same with babies- they aren't any more developed than an animal, but they have value because of what they grow to be.

Does anyone have even the faintest objection to this? Let's hear it, please, because I haven't heard anything that even addresses this issue.

Why does this issue matter so much to you?
Tsar of DDO
bladerunner060
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1/17/2013 1:01:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Except with a sleeping person, they were conscious previously. With a fetus, there never was any consciousness. Surely that bares some weight? The facts are different. There should be some variation in morality. Consciousness is the most important thing about defining a person. When there's no consciousness and never was any, the being that you are killing isn't even a full being. In other words, there's no consciousness that is being affected. When you think of "you" the most important property of you is your consciousness. That fetus never posses that. He will in the future, but that doesn't matter as much as someone had also had it in the past.

While that may or may not be a fine argument (I'm sure Mouthwash would disagree), it doesn't take into account that unconscious is not the same as non-conscious. People who are unconscious still HAVE consciousness (the brain does not shut off during sleep), things which are non-conscious do not.

A fetus is closer to a rock than a sleeping person.
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FREEDO
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1/17/2013 1:02:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
How is it that a zygote has potential but a sperm doesn't?

How do you feel going on killing sprees every day?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
YYW
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1/17/2013 1:04:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:02:51 AM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you feel going on killing sprees every day?

This question was a work of phraseological art.
Tsar of DDO
GarretKadeDupre
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1/17/2013 1:06:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:59:10 AM, YYW wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:05:00 AM, MouthWash wrote:
Because it has the capacity for intelligence as a part of its nature, like a man under amnesia. Same with babies- they aren't any more developed than an animal, but they have value because of what they grow to be.

Does anyone have even the faintest objection to this? Let's hear it, please, because I haven't heard anything that even addresses this issue.

Why does this issue matter so much to you?

Because solving this issue means finding out whether millions of innocent people are being massacred in the U.S. legally, or if they aren't.
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GarretKadeDupre
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1/17/2013 1:08:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:02:51 AM, FREEDO wrote:
How is it that a zygote has potential but a sperm doesn't?

The justifications for abortion just get sillier and sillier.

A zygote, given proper nutrition and housing, will grow into an adult person.

A sperm won't. It's really, really simple.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
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GarretKadeDupre
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1/17/2013 1:10:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:01:58 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
A fetus is closer to a rock than a sleeping person.

By no stretch of the imagination or bending of science is a fetus closer to a rock than a sleeping person.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
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FREEDO
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1/17/2013 1:12:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:08:42 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/17/2013 1:02:51 AM, FREEDO wrote:
How is it that a zygote has potential but a sperm doesn't?

The justifications for abortion just get sillier and sillier.

A zygote, given proper nutrition and housing, will grow into an adult person.

A sperm won't. It's really, really simple.

Infact, a sperm, given the proper "housing", is a zygote.

What's your point? Both need some outside force to sustain their "potential".
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GarretKadeDupre
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1/17/2013 1:12:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 12:56:33 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
It's worth pointing out that there are no occasions in which consciousness provably ceases, but then resumes, once it has started.

The people who have been declared dead then came back to life would beg to disagree with you.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
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bladerunner060
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1/17/2013 1:13:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:10:21 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/17/2013 1:01:58 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
A fetus is closer to a rock than a sleeping person.

By no stretch of the imagination or bending of science is a fetus closer to a rock than a sleeping person.

In terms of consciousness alone.
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GarretKadeDupre
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1/17/2013 1:15:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:12:00 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/17/2013 1:08:42 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/17/2013 1:02:51 AM, FREEDO wrote:
How is it that a zygote has potential but a sperm doesn't?

The justifications for abortion just get sillier and sillier.

A zygote, given proper nutrition and housing, will grow into an adult person.

A sperm won't. It's really, really simple.

Infact, a sperm, given the proper "housing", is a zygote.

What's your point? Both need some outside force to sustain their "potential".

A prime example of the deceptive semantics that abortionists use to justify massacring babies.

By no stretch of the imagination or bending of the rules of science can an egg be called a house. Once you twist the definition of 'house' that way, any conversation about science is pointless because all definitions are subject to your own arbitrary whim.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
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bladerunner060
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1/17/2013 1:15:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:12:09 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/17/2013 12:56:33 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
It's worth pointing out that there are no occasions in which consciousness provably ceases, but then resumes, once it has started.

The people who have been declared dead then came back to life would beg to disagree with you.

The people who have been declared brain dead?

Because there aren't any of those. There are several ways of declaring death.

In no circumstances has consciousness been provably completely ceased (as evidenced by complete cessation of brain activity) and then resumed, as far as I'm aware. Are you aware of any that you could post?
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FREEDO
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1/17/2013 1:16:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:10:21 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/17/2013 1:01:58 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
A fetus is closer to a rock than a sleeping person.

By no stretch of the imagination or bending of science is a fetus closer to a rock than a sleeping person.

Lets see.

Name something that doesn't move, doesn't breathe, doesn't think, doesn't perceive and doesn't have a lifetime of complex social connections.

If any of the things that came to mind include either "rock" or "zygote"--Congratulations!--you win.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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1/17/2013 1:19:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:15:13 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
A prime example of the deceptive semantics that abortionists use to justify massacring babies.

By no stretch of the imagination or bending of the rules of science can an egg be called a house. Once you twist the definition of 'house' that way, any conversation about science is pointless because all definitions are subject to your own arbitrary whim.

A prime example of the deceptive semantics that masturbators use to justify the massacre of babies.

By no stretch of the imagination or bending of rules of science can a womb be called a house. Once you twist the definition of 'house' that way, any conversation about science is pointless because all definitions are subject to your own arbitrary whim.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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1/17/2013 1:21:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
And, as long as we're basing our retorts on ad hominems:

Which seems like a more likely depiction of the psychoanalysis of the abortion debate?

Liberals like killing babies.

Conservatives are misogynistic.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GarretKadeDupre
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1/17/2013 1:22:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:13:00 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 1/17/2013 1:10:21 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/17/2013 1:01:58 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
A fetus is closer to a rock than a sleeping person.

By no stretch of the imagination or bending of science is a fetus closer to a rock than a sleeping person.

In terms of consciousness alone.

Even in terms of consciousness alone. The burden of proof is on the one who claims a fetus isn't conscious; when you are dealing with human life you can't make assumptions.

Besides, even you have to agree that what you said is a huge generalization that is impossible to be true in all cases. As far as I'm aware, the general scientific consensus is that a fetus ceases to be a fetus the moment it is born. This means that in terms of consciousness, an about-to-be-born fetus must be similar or identical to that of a new born baby. Unless you think that birth gives consciousness.
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GarretKadeDupre
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1/17/2013 1:25:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:21:27 AM, FREEDO wrote:
And, as long as we're basing our retorts on ad hominems:

Which seems like a more likely depiction of the psychoanalysis of the abortion debate?

Liberals like killing babies.

Conservatives are misogynistic.

Now that I've provoked you into displaying your dishonesty, I don't care to argue with you. I haven't yet made a statement that I don't personally believe in, but you have. So buh-bye.

And no, I'm not going to bother pointing it out. You know what it is.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
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