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It's All Smoke and Mirrors

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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1/29/2013 7:07:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is political. But it's political philosophy, so I put it here.

I have been thinking a lot about the idea of Transcendentalism recently. It always comes back to me. It's the idea that individuals are basically good and institutions, of all types, are what corrupt us. Not to be confused with Anarchism, which would embody it's own corrupting social structure, under Transcendentalism. It would argue that people would be at their best if they stayed away from organized social causes all together.

Last night I had a dream that I was the leader of a revolution in a strange world with a corrupt dictatorship. However, both the dictator and myself resorted to vast trickery to manipulate the masses towards our causes. I think that's the point of the dream, not the part that I'm the leader of a revolution.

And that's really where I see the most truth in this. The issue of manipulation. Call me a terrible cynic but I think people are stupid; hopelessly stupid. Our brains are not designed to be rational. We have some reasoning abilities but they are just extra stuff on-top of the majority of the convoluted and mostly contradictory human machine for stimuli and reaction. And we are stupid enough on our own. But when other people come to us with their own messed up reasoning, we take it to a whole other level.

But the truth of that, alone, doesn't validate Transcendentalism. Using my dream as an example, didn't the manipulating make things better anyway? Perhaps institutions screw with out incentives but are still useful. If we are free in body, does freedom of mind even matter? That's should present a paradox for some of you. And I'm not going to take a hard stance on what that means. My idea is more of a deviant of Transcendentalism. People are not basically good. Good is just another institution. But institutions do play a huge role in manipulating us, both in action and, especially, thought process, towards better or worse.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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1/29/2013 7:31:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 7:07:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
This is political. But it's political philosophy, so I put it here.

I have been thinking a lot about the idea of Transcendentalism recently. It always comes back to me. It's the idea that individuals are basically good and institutions, of all types, are what corrupt us. Not to be confused with Anarchism, which would embody it's own corrupting social structure, under Transcendentalism. It would argue that people would be at their best if they stayed away from organized social causes all together.

Last night I had a dream that I was the leader of a revolution in a strange world with a corrupt dictatorship. However, both the dictator and myself resorted to vast trickery to manipulate the masses towards our causes. I think that's the point of the dream, not the part that I'm the leader of a revolution.

And that's really where I see the most truth in this. The issue of manipulation. Call me a terrible cynic but I think people are stupid; hopelessly stupid. Our brains are not designed to be rational. We have some reasoning abilities but they are just extra stuff on-top of the majority of the convoluted and mostly contradictory human machine for stimuli and reaction. And we are stupid enough on our own. But when other people come to us with their own messed up reasoning, we take it to a whole other level.

But the truth of that, alone, doesn't validate Transcendentalism. Using my dream as an example, didn't the manipulating make things better anyway? Perhaps institutions screw with out incentives but are still useful. If we are free in body, does freedom of mind even matter? That's should present a paradox for some of you. And I'm not going to take a hard stance on what that means. My idea is more of a deviant of Transcendentalism. People are not basically good. Good is just another institution. But institutions do play a huge role in manipulating us, both in action and, especially, thought process, towards better or worse.

tl;dr: Humans don't know anything, so therefore they shouldn't advocate anything or believe anything. Have I got that right?
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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1/29/2013 7:42:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 7:31:33 PM, MouthWash wrote:
tl;dr: Humans don't know anything, so therefore they shouldn't advocate anything or believe anything. Have I got that right?

You'd have a better understand of my thread if you cut out random words and pasted them together.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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1/29/2013 8:57:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You know what's funny- Thoreau was one of my first inspirations to look into anarchism at all, back in the olden days (by which I mean about 8 or 9 years ago).
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
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: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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1/29/2013 9:39:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
" If we are free in body, does freedom of mind even matter?"
What's the difference between mind and body? If your mind is controlled so are your actions since actions stem from the mind.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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1/30/2013 2:06:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 9:39:10 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
" If we are free in body, does freedom of mind even matter?"
What's the difference between mind and body? If your mind is controlled so are your actions since actions stem from the mind.

An exemplary answer.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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1/30/2013 7:27:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 7:07:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
This is political. But it's political philosophy, so I put it here.

I have been thinking a lot about the idea of Transcendentalism recently. It always comes back to me. It's the idea that individuals are basically good and institutions, of all types, are what corrupt us. Not to be confused with Anarchism, which would embody it's own corrupting social structure, under Transcendentalism. It would argue that people would be at their best if they stayed away from organized social causes all together.

Last night I had a dream that I was the leader of a revolution in a strange world with a corrupt dictatorship. However, both the dictator and myself resorted to vast trickery to manipulate the masses towards our causes. I think that's the point of the dream, not the part that I'm the leader of a revolution.

And that's really where I see the most truth in this. The issue of manipulation.

Whenever someone premises what they are going to say with "where I see the most truth", the Transcendentalist in me warns me that they are going to try to manipulate me.

Call me a terrible cynic but I think people are stupid; hopelessly stupid.

OK, you are a terrible cynic.

Our brains are not designed to be rational.

Sure they are, but that isn"t all that we are.

We have some reasoning abilities but they are just extra stuff

I"d have to say our "reasoning abilities" is a lot more than just extra stuff, as would a Transcendentalist.

on-top of the majority of the convoluted and mostly contradictory human machine for stimuli and reaction.

The use of the words convoluted and contradictory means you are using that "extra stuff", reasoning, to evaluate the other stuff, the other things that we are. Maybe that is partly where "convoluted" and "contradictory" enter into your equation. Transcendentalism asserts the primacy of the transcendental a priori principles of human knowledge over the material and empirical. Your reference to us as a "human machine for stimuli and reaction" is a flat out contradiction to the very foundation of Transcendentalism, which is the other part of where "convoluted and contradictory" enter into your equation.

And we are stupid enough on our own.

Again, you are a terrible cynic, and that is certainly not something a Transcendentalist would say.

But when other people come to us with their own messed up reasoning, we take it to a whole other level.

That would be the problem of confusing the Transcendentalist notion of looking within at transcendent a priori principles with looking to others for it, and that is a real problem. When others try to manipulate you they try to make you think their own messed up reasoning is transcendent and so we should open to their control. Transcendentalism is pretty explicit about hy we shouldn"t do that,

But the truth of that, alone, doesn't validate Transcendentalism.

Well no, the truth of that alone just says you aren"t talking about Transcendentalism.

Using my dream as an example, didn't the manipulating make things better anyway? Perhaps institutions screw with out incentives but are still useful. If we are free in body, does freedom of mind even matter? That's should present a paradox for some of you.

Well yeah, the mind body problem is certainly a paradoxical philosophy issue, been so for thousands of years.

And I'm not going to take a hard stance on what that means. My idea is more of a deviant of Transcendentalism.

No. your ideas aren"t a deviant of Transcendentalism, they are unrelated to Transcendentalism, more diametrically opposed to Transcendentalism than anything.

People are not basically good.

Have I mentioned that you are a terrible cynic? The basic presupposition of the Transcendentalism movement was the presupposition that people and nature are basically good. I"m sure there"s a word for what you are talking about here, but it certainly isn"t Transcendentalism.

Good is just another institution. But institutions do play a huge role in manipulating us, both in action and, especially, thought process, towards better or worse.

True, but Transcendentalism is a philosophical system of thought that fundamentally asserts that we shouldn"t let that happen by looking to others for the truth found within.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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1/30/2013 10:35:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 7:07:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
This is political. But it's political philosophy, so I put it here.

I have been thinking a lot about the idea of Transcendentalism recently. It always comes back to me. It's the idea that individuals are basically good and institutions, of all types, are what corrupt us. Not to be confused with Anarchism, which would embody it's own corrupting social structure, under Transcendentalism. It would argue that people would be at their best if they stayed away from organized social causes all together.

Last night I had a dream that I was the leader of a revolution in a strange world with a corrupt dictatorship. However, both the dictator and myself resorted to vast trickery to manipulate the masses towards our causes. I think that's the point of the dream, not the part that I'm the leader of a revolution.

And that's really where I see the most truth in this. The issue of manipulation. Call me a terrible cynic but I think people are stupid; hopelessly stupid. Our brains are not designed to be rational. We have some reasoning abilities but they are just extra stuff on-top of the majority of the convoluted and mostly contradictory human machine for stimuli and reaction. And we are stupid enough on our own. But when other people come to us with their own messed up reasoning, we take it to a whole other level.

But the truth of that, alone, doesn't validate Transcendentalism. Using my dream as an example, didn't the manipulating make things better anyway? Perhaps institutions screw with out incentives but are still useful. If we are free in body, does freedom of mind even matter? That's should present a paradox for some of you. And I'm not going to take a hard stance on what that means. My idea is more of a deviant of Transcendentalism. People are not basically good. Good is just another institution. But institutions do play a huge role in manipulating us, both in action and, especially, thought process, towards better or worse.

I don't think people are so easily generalized.

However, I think this is a classic case of human self-victimization.

Humans are not manipulated. Humans are not fettered. Humans are not controlled. Humans are not restrained.

This is humanity, raw and unadulterated. Institutions are a product of humanity, not the other way around.

There is no revolution. There is the norm, and there is deviance. But, ultimately, they are simply descriptions of what already are, and the proportions of those that reflect it.

Transcendentalism is when you see past all that. Unfortunately, you end up so alone, it's scary, so most abandon it. Those that don't end up suffering from a lack of stimulation necessary in social animals like human beings.

That's why most just end up becoming artists in an attempt to be indirectly understood.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/30/2013 11:11:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 7:07:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
This is political. But it's political philosophy, so I put it here.

I have been thinking a lot about the idea of Transcendentalism recently. It always comes back to me. It's the idea that individuals are basically good and institutions, of all types, are what corrupt us. Not to be confused with Anarchism, which would embody it's own corrupting social structure, under Transcendentalism. It would argue that people would be at their best if they stayed away from organized social causes all together.

Last night I had a dream that I was the leader of a revolution in a strange world with a corrupt dictatorship. However, both the dictator and myself resorted to vast trickery to manipulate the masses towards our causes. I think that's the point of the dream, not the part that I'm the leader of a revolution.

And that's really where I see the most truth in this. The issue of manipulation. Call me a terrible cynic but I think people are stupid; hopelessly stupid. Our brains are not designed to be rational. We have some reasoning abilities but they are just extra stuff on-top of the majority of the convoluted and mostly contradictory human machine for stimuli and reaction. And we are stupid enough on our own. But when other people come to us with their own messed up reasoning, we take it to a whole other level.

But the truth of that, alone, doesn't validate Transcendentalism. Using my dream as an example, didn't the manipulating make things better anyway? Perhaps institutions screw with out incentives but are still useful. If we are free in body, does freedom of mind even matter? That's should present a paradox for some of you. And I'm not going to take a hard stance on what that means. My idea is more of a deviant of Transcendentalism. People are not basically good. Good is just another institution. But institutions do play a huge role in manipulating us, both in action and, especially, thought process, towards better or worse.

So let me get this straight: You believe that you are stupid?

Not sure why I should be interested in any philosophical discussion with you.
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