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Getting Something From Nothing

royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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2/6/2013 10:50:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

Nope.

0 is the only genuinely conceptual number there is aside i. It's supposed to be the absence of existence. Negative values are actually reciprocals.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/6/2013 10:51:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 10:50:30 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

Nope.

0 is the only genuinely conceptual number there is aside i. It's supposed to be the absence of existence. Negative values are actually reciprocals.

So then you agree that using the concept of "0", I can prove it's impossible to get something from nothing?
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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2/6/2013 10:53:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 10:51:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:50:30 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

Nope.

0 is the only genuinely conceptual number there is aside i. It's supposed to be the absence of existence. Negative values are actually reciprocals.

So then you agree that using the concept of "0", I can prove it's impossible to get something from nothing?

Of course.

0 * x = 0
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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2/6/2013 10:59:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The more important implication is does this finally put the rest the objection to the KCA that something can come from "nothing"? Since properly conceived "nothing" (zero) cannot create anything
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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2/6/2013 11:36:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 10:51:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:50:30 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

Nope.

0 is the only genuinely conceptual number there is aside i. It's supposed to be the absence of existence. Negative values are actually reciprocals.

So then you agree that using the concept of "0", I can prove it's impossible to get something from nothing?

No, zero is just a number, you aren't going to prove a metaphysical or ontological impossibility with a simple mathematical operation.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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2/7/2013 8:47:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 11:36:08 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:51:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:50:30 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

Nope.

0 is the only genuinely conceptual number there is aside i. It's supposed to be the absence of existence. Negative values are actually reciprocals.

So then you agree that using the concept of "0", I can prove it's impossible to get something from nothing?

No, zero is just a number, you aren't going to prove a metaphysical or ontological impossibility with a simple mathematical operation.

What is math if not a conceptual manifestation of the Universe in a way we can understand?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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2/7/2013 8:49:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
When I say universe I refer to the laws controlling it
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Orpheus
Posts: 60
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2/7/2013 9:07:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

When you add to 0, you're taking something you already have.

0+1=1 because you already started with 1 of something.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/7/2013 11:00:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 9:07:56 AM, Orpheus wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

When you add to 0, you're taking something you already have.

0+1=1 because you already started with 1 of something.

This is a stupid exercise.

Cos(0) = 1.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Orpheus
Posts: 60
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2/7/2013 11:03:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 11:00:07 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 2/7/2013 9:07:56 AM, Orpheus wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

When you add to 0, you're taking something you already have.

0+1=1 because you already started with 1 of something.

This is a stupid exercise.

Cos(0) = 1.

Cos is a different type of operation relating to a type of curve. It's just describing a relationship, not taking something from nothing.
IncredulousVessel
Posts: 66
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2/7/2013 11:28:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

Maybe. Maybe not.
"Most people put a witty, intelligent or humorous quote here."

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Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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2/7/2013 11:39:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 11:00:07 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 2/7/2013 9:07:56 AM, Orpheus wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

When you add to 0, you're taking something you already have.

0+1=1 because you already started with 1 of something.

This is a stupid exercise.

Cos(0) = 1.

Cos = adjacent/hypotenuse, regarding the measurement of an angle. With an angle that measures 0 degrees, both the hypotenuse and the adjacent side would = 1, because it would eliminate a slope, making the hypotenuse and the adjacent line one and the same, or a straight radius of the unit circle.
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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2/7/2013 11:40:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So, in other words, you're not getting something from nothing, you're getting what's left of something, after you eliminate a given measurement.

In any case, 0x = 0. Cannot have something from nothing.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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2/7/2013 12:43:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Depends how you define nothing. Taking the scientific meaning of the word, many physicists believe the universe came from nothing. From the philosophical meaning, I think rationalthinker had something good to say about it, which was essentially that potential is something and for anything to occur, it must previously have had potential, therefore ex nihilo nihil fit (out of nothing, nothing comes).

It seems you can a priori analytically justify the proposition that out of nothing, nothing comes. Such analytical proofs are just about the most sure things you can believe in. As said, anything that occurs must have previously had the potential to occur. In order for state A to transition to state B, state A must have had the potential to become state B. The denial of that is a logical contradiction, for the very definition of "potential" and "non-potential" necessitates it. For state A to lack potential, means it has non-potential, which means it lacks possibility. So if state A has non-potential in relation to state B, state A logically cannot transition to state B. So it would be impossible for state B to come from state A. It would have to defy the laws of logic. If state A does transition to state B, then state A by necessity had the potential to become state B.

Therefore, for those who deny ex nihilo nihil fit, you could define state A as "nothing" and state B as "something". There you could say "A and then B", but how do you justify the "and then"? Nothing cannot transition to something because in order to transition to another thing, it needs the ability and therefore potential to do so. So in order for anything to come from anything else, it would have to come from something because potential is something and potential is required.

So it seems that in order to deny "out of nothing, nothing comes", you have to deny basic logical principles which is I think rather futile.
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Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/7/2013 1:15:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 11:39:53 AM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 2/7/2013 11:00:07 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 2/7/2013 9:07:56 AM, Orpheus wrote:
At 2/6/2013 10:48:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Is it mathematically impossible to get something from nothing? How do I derive any other digit from "0"? Don't I need other numbers to do this?

When you add to 0, you're taking something you already have.

0+1=1 because you already started with 1 of something.

This is a stupid exercise.

Cos(0) = 1.

Cos = adjacent/hypotenuse, regarding the measurement of an angle. With an angle that measures 0 degrees, both the hypotenuse and the adjacent side would = 1, because it would eliminate a slope, making the hypotenuse and the adjacent line one and the same, or a straight radius of the unit circle.

You're rationalising the fact that an operation on 0 = 1.

Regardless, it's still a stupid exercise. If I created a mathematical value which has the nature of when multiplied by 0 gives 7, then convinced people that it's useful, this doesn't make something come from nothing. In the same way, the fact that we don't multiply something by 0 to get another number isn't proof of anything except that mathematics doesn't work in that way.

If mathematics is based on the cosine graph, then by definition 0 gives one, and something comes from nothing. If mathematics is based on a system where all numbers are just proportional representations to the lowest number involved (i.e. relative values instead of absolute values), then 0 still has meaning. If we're discussing medians, means, deviations, PMCCs, etc. etc. then 0 has meaning and value. The argument goes down a route of simply what system of mathematics are we approaching.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
sadolite
Posts: 8,833
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2/7/2013 5:58:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Looks and charm, will most certainly get you something from nothing.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/7/2013 6:00:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Stephen, your entire argument about means, modes, deviations, etc. assumes that negative numbers are not just abstract concepts and that they have some sort of non-abstract impact on the real world.
natoast
Posts: 204
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2/7/2013 6:28:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I mean, you could do 0/0. I know that this doesn't really give you another digit exactly, but any possible number or infinity would correctly answer 0x=0.