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Value of Life

bossyburrito
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2/8/2013 10:01:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Depends on the person.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
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Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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2/8/2013 10:36:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Isn't that a null effect? Nothing is gained, nothing is lost (except perhaps your moral center for killing a person that didn't need to die).

I presume there is no emotional attachment involved, like my daughter vs. your daughter.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/8/2013 11:26:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Circumstances have to be assumed to make that decision. I made the leap to two clones, in a vat. That way they are identical innocent persons.

You're a member of the Clone Liberation Idealist Team. You're trying to let them out, when suddenly a message appears:

WARNING!
VAT ERROR.

UNABLE TO RELEASE VATS 1 AND 2.

VAT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 MUST BE EJECTED.

FAILURE TO EJECT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 WILL RESULT IN VAT 2 EJECTION PRIOR TO VAT 1 RELEASE

EJECTION OF VAT 1 CONTENTS WILL CAUSE IMMEDIATE VAT 2 RELEASE

EJECT VAT 1?
Y/N

In that scenario, I would probably do nothing; I can't save both, and the only difference in outcomes is that in one scenario, the machine automatically kills someone, and in the other, I'm the one that did the killing.
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bossyburrito
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2/8/2013 11:34:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 11:26:44 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Circumstances have to be assumed to make that decision. I made the leap to two clones, in a vat. That way they are identical innocent persons.

You're a member of the Clone Liberation Idealist Team. You're trying to let them out, when suddenly a message appears:

WARNING!
VAT ERROR.

UNABLE TO RELEASE VATS 1 AND 2.

VAT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 MUST BE EJECTED.

FAILURE TO EJECT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 WILL RESULT IN VAT 2 EJECTION PRIOR TO VAT 1 RELEASE

EJECTION OF VAT 1 CONTENTS WILL CAUSE IMMEDIATE VAT 2 RELEASE

EJECT VAT 1?
Y/N




In that scenario, I would probably do nothing; I can't save both, and the only difference in outcomes is that in one scenario, the machine automatically kills someone, and in the other, I'm the one that did the killing.

What's the difference? A choice doesn't matter if the outcomes are the same.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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2/8/2013 11:45:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

no
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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2/8/2013 11:45:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 11:34:26 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 2/8/2013 11:26:44 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Circumstances have to be assumed to make that decision. I made the leap to two clones, in a vat. That way they are identical innocent persons.

You're a member of the Clone Liberation Idealist Team. You're trying to let them out, when suddenly a message appears:

WARNING!
VAT ERROR.

UNABLE TO RELEASE VATS 1 AND 2.

VAT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 MUST BE EJECTED.

FAILURE TO EJECT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 WILL RESULT IN VAT 2 EJECTION PRIOR TO VAT 1 RELEASE

EJECTION OF VAT 1 CONTENTS WILL CAUSE IMMEDIATE VAT 2 RELEASE

EJECT VAT 1?
Y/N




In that scenario, I would probably do nothing; I can't save both, and the only difference in outcomes is that in one scenario, the machine automatically kills someone, and in the other, I'm the one that did the killing.

What's the difference? A choice doesn't matter if the outcomes are the same.

One being a family member, friend, or lover.

Personally, I just don't know... probably not. I could never buy love with blood. I'd likely just try to save them both.

"But you can't."

I'd try anyway. I'm hard-headed like that.
Simple
Posts: 13
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2/8/2013 12:06:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The inevitable questions of whether or not you know the person on either side of the equation is bound to surface and it was actually designed that way.
Would you kill an innocent person to save your child?
j_lowe
Posts: 23
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2/8/2013 12:08:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

A quote from Leo Tolstoy...

"And, indeed, what sort of ethical doctrine could admit the legitimacy of murder for any object whatever? It is as impossible as a theory of mathematics admitting that two is equal to three.

There may be a semblance of mathematics admitting that two is equal to three, but there can be no real science of mathematics. And there can only be a semblance of ethics in which murder... is allowed, but no true ethics. The recognition of the life of every man as sacred is the first and only basis of all ethics....

Life is a value which has no weight nor size, and cannot be compared to any other, and so there is no sense in destroying a life for a life. Besides, every social law aims at the amelioration of man's life. What way, then, can the annihilation of the life of some men ameliorate life? Annihilation of life cannot be a means of the amelioration of life; it is a suicidal act."
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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2/8/2013 12:12:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 12:06:08 PM, Simple wrote:
The inevitable questions of whether or not you know the person on either side of the equation is bound to surface and it was actually designed that way.
Would you kill an innocent person to save your child?

If my child held the cure to cancer.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
imabench
Posts: 21,211
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2/8/2013 12:12:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Which one has a vagina?
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Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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2/8/2013 12:45:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 12:12:32 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Which one has a vagina?

Neither. This battle is between Pope Innocent (The Ironic Catholic) and 50 Innocent (The Ironic Gangster).
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/8/2013 1:37:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 11:34:26 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 2/8/2013 11:26:44 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Circumstances have to be assumed to make that decision. I made the leap to two clones, in a vat. That way they are identical innocent persons.

You're a member of the Clone Liberation Idealist Team. You're trying to let them out, when suddenly a message appears:

WARNING!
VAT ERROR.

UNABLE TO RELEASE VATS 1 AND 2.

VAT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 MUST BE EJECTED.

FAILURE TO EJECT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 WILL RESULT IN VAT 2 EJECTION PRIOR TO VAT 1 RELEASE

EJECTION OF VAT 1 CONTENTS WILL CAUSE IMMEDIATE VAT 2 RELEASE

EJECT VAT 1?
Y/N




In that scenario, I would probably do nothing; I can't save both, and the only difference in outcomes is that in one scenario, the machine automatically kills someone, and in the other, I'm the one that did the killing.

What's the difference? A choice doesn't matter if the outcomes are the same.

That's not true. Say I know a thief is going to steal something, for an absolute fact. Does that mean that if I decide to steal it first, my choice doesn't matter because the outcomes are the same in that it gets stolen either way?
My point was that in one situation, I am not the direct agent of death, in the other I am; it's not a big difference, and like Franz I'd probably spend the time trying to save both and refusing the accept this Kobayashi Maru of a problem.
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/8/2013 1:39:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 12:06:08 PM, Simple wrote:
The inevitable questions of whether or not you know the person on either side of the equation is bound to surface and it was actually designed that way.
Would you kill an innocent person to save your child?

In a heartbeat; in that case, the two lives become unequal to me, and therefore I can make that choice easily; while the innocence factor is the same, there are other factors than simply that.
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Simple
Posts: 13
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2/8/2013 1:51:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 1:39:22 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 12:06:08 PM, Simple wrote:
The inevitable questions of whether or not you know the person on either side of the equation is bound to surface and it was actually designed that way.
Would you kill an innocent person to save your child?

In a heartbeat; in that case, the two lives become unequal to me, and therefore I can make that choice easily; while the innocence factor is the same, there are other factors than simply that.

Thanks for a real answer Bladerunner. I am going to further complicate it for you now. Would you torture a child to death to save your own child?
Sidewalker
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2/8/2013 1:51:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

What kind of question is that?

If the net effect is the same, aren't you just asking if we would like to kill an innocent person?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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2/8/2013 1:52:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

No. We are not justified in killing an innocent person to save another.
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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2/8/2013 1:58:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 1:51:39 PM, Simple wrote:
At 2/8/2013 1:39:22 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 12:06:08 PM, Simple wrote:
The inevitable questions of whether or not you know the person on either side of the equation is bound to surface and it was actually designed that way.
Would you kill an innocent person to save your child?

In a heartbeat; in that case, the two lives become unequal to me, and therefore I can make that choice easily; while the innocence factor is the same, there are other factors than simply that.

Thanks for a real answer Bladerunner. I am going to further complicate it for you now. Would you torture a child to death to save your own child?

In this absurd scenario, I certainly would go to extremes to save my own child....and probably commit suicide out of paralyzing guilt.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/8/2013 2:03:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 1:51:39 PM, Simple wrote:
At 2/8/2013 1:39:22 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 12:06:08 PM, Simple wrote:
The inevitable questions of whether or not you know the person on either side of the equation is bound to surface and it was actually designed that way.
Would you kill an innocent person to save your child?

In a heartbeat; in that case, the two lives become unequal to me, and therefore I can make that choice easily; while the innocence factor is the same, there are other factors than simply that.

Thanks for a real answer Bladerunner. I am going to further complicate it for you now. Would you torture a child to death to save your own child?

That depends on several factors. For instance: Are you saying would I torture a child to death to save my own child from ALSO being tortured to death, or just from dying?
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Simple
Posts: 13
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2/8/2013 2:12:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 2:03:55 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 1:51:39 PM, Simple wrote:
At 2/8/2013 1:39:22 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 12:06:08 PM, Simple wrote:
The inevitable questions of whether or not you know the person on either side of the equation is bound to surface and it was actually designed that way.
Would you kill an innocent person to save your child?

In a heartbeat; in that case, the two lives become unequal to me, and therefore I can make that choice easily; while the innocence factor is the same, there are other factors than simply that.

Thanks for a real answer Bladerunner. I am going to further complicate it for you now. Would you torture a child to death to save your own child?

That depends on several factors. For instance: Are you saying would I torture a child to death to save my own child from ALSO being tortured to death, or just from dying?

Your child gets a quick painless death if that helps
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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2/8/2013 3:02:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 1:37:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 11:34:26 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 2/8/2013 11:26:44 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Circumstances have to be assumed to make that decision. I made the leap to two clones, in a vat. That way they are identical innocent persons.

You're a member of the Clone Liberation Idealist Team. You're trying to let them out, when suddenly a message appears:

WARNING!
VAT ERROR.

UNABLE TO RELEASE VATS 1 AND 2.

VAT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 MUST BE EJECTED.

FAILURE TO EJECT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 WILL RESULT IN VAT 2 EJECTION PRIOR TO VAT 1 RELEASE

EJECTION OF VAT 1 CONTENTS WILL CAUSE IMMEDIATE VAT 2 RELEASE

EJECT VAT 1?
Y/N




In that scenario, I would probably do nothing; I can't save both, and the only difference in outcomes is that in one scenario, the machine automatically kills someone, and in the other, I'm the one that did the killing.

What's the difference? A choice doesn't matter if the outcomes are the same.

That's not true. Say I know a thief is going to steal something, for an absolute fact. Does that mean that if I decide to steal it first, my choice doesn't matter because the outcomes are the same in that it gets stolen either way?
All that changes is the name of the thief, so it only matters to you.
My point was that in one situation, I am not the direct agent of death, in the other I am; it's not a big difference, and like Franz I'd probably spend the time trying to save both and refusing the accept this Kobayashi Maru of a problem.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/8/2013 3:24:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 3:02:21 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 2/8/2013 1:37:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 11:34:26 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 2/8/2013 11:26:44 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Circumstances have to be assumed to make that decision. I made the leap to two clones, in a vat. That way they are identical innocent persons.

You're a member of the Clone Liberation Idealist Team. You're trying to let them out, when suddenly a message appears:

WARNING!
VAT ERROR.

UNABLE TO RELEASE VATS 1 AND 2.

VAT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 MUST BE EJECTED.

FAILURE TO EJECT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 WILL RESULT IN VAT 2 EJECTION PRIOR TO VAT 1 RELEASE

EJECTION OF VAT 1 CONTENTS WILL CAUSE IMMEDIATE VAT 2 RELEASE

EJECT VAT 1?
Y/N




In that scenario, I would probably do nothing; I can't save both, and the only difference in outcomes is that in one scenario, the machine automatically kills someone, and in the other, I'm the one that did the killing.

What's the difference? A choice doesn't matter if the outcomes are the same.

That's not true. Say I know a thief is going to steal something, for an absolute fact. Does that mean that if I decide to steal it first, my choice doesn't matter because the outcomes are the same in that it gets stolen either way?
All that changes is the name of the thief, so it only matters to you.

Right, and I am the moral agent here, making the decision. So, as part of that decision, things that only matter to me still matter to me.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/8/2013 3:26:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 2:12:22 PM, Simple wrote:


Your child gets a quick painless death if that helps

I thought I had already replied, but I guess I didn't. In this scenario, I would need to decide whether the other's child's torture outweighs my preference for my own child. It would be a hard decision, and, I guess, depend on the type of torture. But probably I would let my child die quickly and painlessly rather than torture another child to death.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
bossyburrito
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2/8/2013 3:26:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 3:24:35 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 3:02:21 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 2/8/2013 1:37:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 11:34:26 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 2/8/2013 11:26:44 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Circumstances have to be assumed to make that decision. I made the leap to two clones, in a vat. That way they are identical innocent persons.

You're a member of the Clone Liberation Idealist Team. You're trying to let them out, when suddenly a message appears:

WARNING!
VAT ERROR.

UNABLE TO RELEASE VATS 1 AND 2.

VAT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 MUST BE EJECTED.

FAILURE TO EJECT CONTENTS OF VAT 1 WILL RESULT IN VAT 2 EJECTION PRIOR TO VAT 1 RELEASE

EJECTION OF VAT 1 CONTENTS WILL CAUSE IMMEDIATE VAT 2 RELEASE

EJECT VAT 1?
Y/N




In that scenario, I would probably do nothing; I can't save both, and the only difference in outcomes is that in one scenario, the machine automatically kills someone, and in the other, I'm the one that did the killing.

What's the difference? A choice doesn't matter if the outcomes are the same.

That's not true. Say I know a thief is going to steal something, for an absolute fact. Does that mean that if I decide to steal it first, my choice doesn't matter because the outcomes are the same in that it gets stolen either way?
All that changes is the name of the thief, so it only matters to you.


Right, and I am the moral agent here, making the decision. So, as part of that decision, things that only matter to me still matter to me.

But not to anyone looking in at the situation.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/8/2013 3:43:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 3:26:20 PM, bossyburrito wrote:


But not to anyone looking in at the situation.

Correct. But the question was "what would you do", not "what would someone outside of you think of the situation; what I would do is what I described, for the reasons I described which, as you agreed, do matter to me.
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EvanK
Posts: 599
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2/8/2013 9:03:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 9:53:26 AM, Simple wrote:
Would you kill one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person?

Depends on the person. If the person I was saving, for example, was someone I loved, then yes. If they are both perfect strangers, probably not.
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suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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2/12/2013 9:06:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yes, if there is one more condition to add: Do nothing or try to save both will result in both of them die.

If I found 2 hungry children that will not survive unless they are given a loaf of bread, less than that and they are still going to die. I have exactly one loaf of bread and it is impossible to find more. Don't give it and both of them die, split it and they still die. In this case, I believe it is justified to save one and let the other die.

At least that is what I expected more from story and fiction now a day :D. Anything that do not fit this definition for me is neither a scarifies or cruelty but stupidity.