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death and memories

natoast
Posts: 204
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2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/17/2013 9:35:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

Are we talking back to being a baby? No memories, no personality?
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natoast
Posts: 204
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2/17/2013 9:42:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 9:35:37 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

Are we talking back to being a baby? No memories, no personality?

Yes, everything is gone.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/17/2013 9:52:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 9:42:27 PM, natoast wrote:
At 2/17/2013 9:35:37 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

Are we talking back to being a baby? No memories, no personality?

Yes, everything is gone.

I think it would be slightly better than murder, but only slightly.
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TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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2/17/2013 11:35:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

It sounds like a "format" option. I believe it"s still better than murder because he or she, who suffers from this treatment, still retains the opportunity to live his or her own life; whereas in the case of murder, the life is perished, forever, with no trace of existence.

But if you were referring to a persistent vegetative state, then it is no better than murder.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/18/2013 12:07:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's murder. You've effectively killed that person.

Just because his atoms are still present means nothing. The person you zapped is dead and gone.
natoast
Posts: 204
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2/18/2013 5:35:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:07:44 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
It's murder. You've effectively killed that person.

Just because his atoms are still present means nothing. The person you zapped is dead and gone.

I agree. The person can never relive their life because they can't have identical experiences. This led me to believe that the proper definition of a person isn't a homo sapien but the collection of memories and the personality in the mind.
TolerantSpirit
Posts: 37
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2/18/2013 5:46:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

Yes because they can now become anyone they want to.
Think before you talk.
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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2/20/2013 11:11:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 5:46:56 AM, TolerantSpirit wrote:
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

Yes because they can now become anyone they want to.

Yes, they can learn to walk again, and talk, and read, and do math, and all that wonderful learning process that took at least a decade again!
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
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Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/20/2013 11:17:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 5:35:26 AM, natoast wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:07:44 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
It's murder. You've effectively killed that person.

Just because his atoms are still present means nothing. The person you zapped is dead and gone.

I agree. The person can never relive their life because they can't have identical experiences. This led me to believe that the proper definition of a person isn't a homo sapien but the collection of memories and the personality in the mind.

I don't think the collection of memories is important, except for the manner in which they shape the personality. If you could zap all the memories, but leave the personality identical, I think the person would be arguably the same, but if you alter the personality completely, then it's a new person.

There's a short story that explores this by Daryl Gregory. Can't remember the title offhand, but it's a drug that completely wipes the personality, and if you overdose on it the wipe is permanent, which then means a new personality forms.
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jambone
Posts: 25
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2/27/2013 5:07:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

Interesting thought experiment, actually it did happen to me on a number of occasions for brief periods of time. Actually I could see with the ability to rebuild, say you were fairly young when this occur, you could put a life back together. If this is not a option, yes it is like murder, an identity has ceased to exist. This is where Alzheimer loss of memory for short term as well as long term is so horrific, no matter if you are embraced by loved ones constantly, you are forever a wander among strangers. Strangers looking at you and always begging that illusive question, for which you have no answer.
RobDeSenelstun
Posts: 18
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3/5/2013 3:31:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

Some people might pay you to shoot them with this gun, think of Elizabeth Fritzl for instance. Murder, not quite, presumably you still have the ability to feel emotion. Not far off though...although I wouldn't say an Alzheimer sufferer is dead.
jambone
Posts: 25
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3/5/2013 4:23:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 3:31:10 PM, RobDeSenelstun wrote:
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

Some people might pay you to shoot them with this gun, think of Elizabeth Fritzl for instance. Murder, not quite, presumably you still have the ability to feel emotion. Not far off though...although I wouldn't say an Alzheimer sufferer is dead.

Alzheimer patients fully have the ability I think to suffer, and with no identity 24-7 or when you cannot remember very short term stuff this is a form of torture. The philosophical question is often asked here in the forum, "Who Am I." The answer is my memories, then we might ask something into the nature of what constitutes such memories. I believe sometimes the real death experience is preferable, for I do not believe in after death suffering and/or regrets
natoast
Posts: 204
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3/5/2013 8:17:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 3:31:10 PM, RobDeSenelstun wrote:
At 2/17/2013 9:22:18 PM, natoast wrote:
Here's a hypothetical situation: say I have a ray gun that can delete a persons memories. I just shoot it at them and they forget everything that ever happened to them ever, without any way for them to ever regain them. Would this be any better then murder?

Some people might pay you to shoot them with this gun, think of Elizabeth Fritzl for instance. Murder, not quite, presumably you still have the ability to feel emotion. Not far off though...although I wouldn't say an Alzheimer sufferer is dead.

I agree, but I wouldn't say an Alzheimer patient has lost all of their memories, just some of them. Especially short term.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/5/2013 8:30:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's identical to murder as far as the individual is concerned.

But it avoids the social consequences.
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