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Does man have the right to his own life?

TSH
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2/26/2013 6:46:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 6:42:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I say yes.

From a Utilitarian perspective, no. It is in the best interests of society for some men to be denied the right to their own lives.
~tsh
TSH
Posts: 260
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2/26/2013 6:48:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 6:46:54 PM, TSH wrote:
At 2/26/2013 6:42:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I say yes.

From a Utilitarian perspective, no. It is in the best interests of society for some men to be denied the right to their own lives.

Conditionally, of course; meaning that one's right to life is not absolute.
~tsh
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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2/26/2013 7:23:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 6:42:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I say yes.

I also say yes. The most fundamental right for any human being is the right to life. It makes no sense to speak of rights if each individual person did not have a right to life.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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2/26/2013 7:27:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 6:46:54 PM, TSH wrote:
At 2/26/2013 6:42:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I say yes.

From a Utilitarian perspective, no. It is in the best interests of society for some men to be denied the right to their own lives.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com...
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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2/26/2013 9:20:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 6:46:54 PM, TSH wrote:
At 2/26/2013 6:42:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I say yes.

From a Utilitarian perspective, no. It is in the best interests of society for some men to be denied the right to their own lives.

What if only some men have the right to life? I'm sure the OP wasn't asking if every single person on earth has the right to life.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/26/2013 11:42:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 9:20:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 2/26/2013 6:46:54 PM, TSH wrote:
At 2/26/2013 6:42:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I say yes.

From a Utilitarian perspective, no. It is in the best interests of society for some men to be denied the right to their own lives.

What if only some men have the right to life? I'm sure the OP wasn't asking if every single person on earth has the right to life.

The Fool: Rights are False, plain and simple, they have nothing do to with humans nor Human nature in anyway at all, they have no moral worth, they are not for the Good, And they are so artificial, alien, and foreign to my mind or body, that my sentient rational intuition quickly recognizes them at Threats to my system and so they are automatically rejected as mental viruses. Which if they had been absorbed can result in harm to me, my ability to reason, me as a person.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/27/2013 2:36:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 6:42:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I say yes.

Yes except if that person displays behavior that is harmful to their own or other's lives, they give up that right.
Buddamoose
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2/27/2013 2:37:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 1:33:13 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I say no.

And, like you, I offer no good reason to say this.

lulz
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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2/27/2013 3:05:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Can you elaborate on the question? Are you asking if all people should be allowed to live no matter what? If all people should be allowed to choose when they die? Etc, etc?
Cinco
Posts: 63
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2/27/2013 7:02:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 6:42:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I say yes.

As an anarchist, I must agree, but with a "purity" caveat. One man's "right" cannot eliminate another man's "right".

There is a misunderstanding similar to the common misunderstanding of what anarchy is. Many think anarchy is some sort of immunity to consequences but it is only an absence of "legal" consequences. i.e. "laws" protect you from the government, under certain circumstances, but nothing, whatsoever, including laws, can protect you from your "neighbors" except the speed at which you can run.

Every person's right to do as they please is dependent upon every other person having the same right. There's an element of man's perception of "time", as well, but I won't go into that.
If your time, to you,
Is worth savin',
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone.
For the times they are a-changin'. - Bob Dylan
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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2/27/2013 9:51:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 3:05:06 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Can you elaborate on the question? Are you asking if all people should be allowed to live no matter what? If all people should be allowed to choose when they die? Etc, etc?

Essentially, is man an end in himself. Is man owned by the state, as a means of production, or is his life his own?
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/27/2013 10:36:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 6:46:54 PM, TSH wrote:
At 2/26/2013 6:42:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I say yes.

From a Utilitarian perspective, no. It is in the best interests of society for some men to be denied the right to their own lives.

From a utilitarian perspective, yes. Human rights came most strongly first from J.S.Mill, a utilitarian. It just can be violated, like all other laws, to protect the right of others.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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2/27/2013 6:10:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.

You should read it.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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2/27/2013 6:57:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.

Meh. I read The Romantic Manifesto which actually was good. It was just about art and aesthetics. The Virtue of Selfishness isn't too long. It's just a compilation of essays on Objectivist ethics. If you're not interested in spending too much time on it though I'd recommend Anthem. It was a novella she wrote which is basically thinly veiled Objectivism. It touches a bit on collectivism, epistemology, and ethics. It's sort of generic but whatever it's an alright use of time I think.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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2/27/2013 7:03:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 6:57:12 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.


Meh. I read The Romantic Manifesto which actually was good. It was just about art and aesthetics. The Virtue of Selfishness isn't too long. It's just a compilation of essays on Objectivist ethics. If you're not interested in spending too much time on it though I'd recommend Anthem. It was a novella she wrote which is basically thinly veiled Objectivism. It touches a bit on collectivism, epistemology, and ethics. It's sort of generic but whatever it's an alright use of time I think.

Anthem is unlike anything you'll ever read. Also, Ayn Rand's non-fiction works are great; they are made up of beautifully written essays, and cover a wide range of topics.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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2/27/2013 10:22:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 7:03:27 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2013 6:57:12 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.


Meh. I read The Romantic Manifesto which actually was good. It was just about art and aesthetics. The Virtue of Selfishness isn't too long. It's just a compilation of essays on Objectivist ethics. If you're not interested in spending too much time on it though I'd recommend Anthem. It was a novella she wrote which is basically thinly veiled Objectivism. It touches a bit on collectivism, epistemology, and ethics. It's sort of generic but whatever it's an alright use of time I think.

Anthem is unlike anything you'll ever read. Also, Ayn Rand's non-fiction works are great; they are made up of beautifully written essays, and cover a wide range of topics.

Calm down. Anthem really isn't that great. I'm not saying its not enjoyable to read because I did enjoy it (I usually enjoy novels by philosophers). I'm just not one to exaggerate what was obviously nothing special. Read No Exit or The Stranger and honestly tell me how Anthem compares.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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2/27/2013 10:23:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 10:22:37 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:03:27 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2013 6:57:12 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.


Meh. I read The Romantic Manifesto which actually was good. It was just about art and aesthetics. The Virtue of Selfishness isn't too long. It's just a compilation of essays on Objectivist ethics. If you're not interested in spending too much time on it though I'd recommend Anthem. It was a novella she wrote which is basically thinly veiled Objectivism. It touches a bit on collectivism, epistemology, and ethics. It's sort of generic but whatever it's an alright use of time I think.

Anthem is unlike anything you'll ever read. Also, Ayn Rand's non-fiction works are great; they are made up of beautifully written essays, and cover a wide range of topics.

Calm down. Anthem really isn't that great. I'm not saying its not enjoyable to read because I did enjoy it (I usually enjoy novels by philosophers). I'm just not one to exaggerate what was obviously nothing special. Read No Exit or The Stranger and honestly tell me how Anthem compares.

I said Anthem is unlike anything you'll ever read, because it is. I didn't say it's the best book ever.
thett3
Posts: 14,373
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2/27/2013 10:25:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 10:22:37 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:03:27 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2013 6:57:12 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.


Meh. I read The Romantic Manifesto which actually was good. It was just about art and aesthetics. The Virtue of Selfishness isn't too long. It's just a compilation of essays on Objectivist ethics. If you're not interested in spending too much time on it though I'd recommend Anthem. It was a novella she wrote which is basically thinly veiled Objectivism. It touches a bit on collectivism, epistemology, and ethics. It's sort of generic but whatever it's an alright use of time I think.

Anthem is unlike anything you'll ever read. Also, Ayn Rand's non-fiction works are great; they are made up of beautifully written essays, and cover a wide range of topics.

Calm down. Anthem really isn't that great. I'm not saying its not enjoyable to read because I did enjoy it (I usually enjoy novels by philosophers). I'm just not one to exaggerate what was obviously nothing special. Read No Exit or The Stranger and honestly tell me how Anthem compares.

Just a shout out in support of how awesome that book is
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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2/27/2013 10:26:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 10:25:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:22:37 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:03:27 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2013 6:57:12 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.


Meh. I read The Romantic Manifesto which actually was good. It was just about art and aesthetics. The Virtue of Selfishness isn't too long. It's just a compilation of essays on Objectivist ethics. If you're not interested in spending too much time on it though I'd recommend Anthem. It was a novella she wrote which is basically thinly veiled Objectivism. It touches a bit on collectivism, epistemology, and ethics. It's sort of generic but whatever it's an alright use of time I think.

Anthem is unlike anything you'll ever read. Also, Ayn Rand's non-fiction works are great; they are made up of beautifully written essays, and cover a wide range of topics.

Calm down. Anthem really isn't that great. I'm not saying its not enjoyable to read because I did enjoy it (I usually enjoy novels by philosophers). I'm just not one to exaggerate what was obviously nothing special. Read No Exit or The Stranger and honestly tell me how Anthem compares.

Just a shout out in support of how awesome that book is

Which author?
thett3
Posts: 14,373
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2/27/2013 10:33:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 10:26:46 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:25:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:22:37 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:03:27 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2013 6:57:12 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.


Meh. I read The Romantic Manifesto which actually was good. It was just about art and aesthetics. The Virtue of Selfishness isn't too long. It's just a compilation of essays on Objectivist ethics. If you're not interested in spending too much time on it though I'd recommend Anthem. It was a novella she wrote which is basically thinly veiled Objectivism. It touches a bit on collectivism, epistemology, and ethics. It's sort of generic but whatever it's an alright use of time I think.

Anthem is unlike anything you'll ever read. Also, Ayn Rand's non-fiction works are great; they are made up of beautifully written essays, and cover a wide range of topics.

Calm down. Anthem really isn't that great. I'm not saying its not enjoyable to read because I did enjoy it (I usually enjoy novels by philosophers). I'm just not one to exaggerate what was obviously nothing special. Read No Exit or The Stranger and honestly tell me how Anthem compares.

Just a shout out in support of how awesome that book is

Which author?

camus
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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2/27/2013 11:01:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 10:25:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:22:37 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:03:27 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2013 6:57:12 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/27/2013 3:50:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:56:23 AM, Noumena wrote:
I think someone just rustled up a copy of the Fountainhead lol.

Should I read Ayn Rand's stuff? I can't tell if it's actually worth it or if it's just massively overhyped trash.


Meh. I read The Romantic Manifesto which actually was good. It was just about art and aesthetics. The Virtue of Selfishness isn't too long. It's just a compilation of essays on Objectivist ethics. If you're not interested in spending too much time on it though I'd recommend Anthem. It was a novella she wrote which is basically thinly veiled Objectivism. It touches a bit on collectivism, epistemology, and ethics. It's sort of generic but whatever it's an alright use of time I think.

Anthem is unlike anything you'll ever read. Also, Ayn Rand's non-fiction works are great; they are made up of beautifully written essays, and cover a wide range of topics.

Calm down. Anthem really isn't that great. I'm not saying its not enjoyable to read because I did enjoy it (I usually enjoy novels by philosophers). I'm just not one to exaggerate what was obviously nothing special. Read No Exit or The Stranger and honestly tell me how Anthem compares.

Just a shout out in support of how awesome that book is

Yes! I'll have read it twice this year soon(ish).
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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2/28/2013 10:51:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Okay, so I read 'Anthem'. It's pretty much what I expected - a mediocre philosophy derived from an absurd exaggeration of collectivism wrapped in a compelling narrative. It was enjoyable, but hardly something 'unlike anything I've ever read'.
Noumena
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2/28/2013 11:01:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 10:51:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Okay, so I read 'Anthem'. It's pretty much what I expected - a mediocre philosophy derived from an absurd exaggeration of collectivism wrapped in a compelling narrative. It was enjoyable, but hardly something 'unlike anything I've ever read'.

Lol pretty much. That was her style though so lay off ;)

Though in a word of defense, moral works like that can't base themselves simply on inane examples of collectivism. She says in the Romantic Manifesto that good works draw on concepts not contingencies, qualitative aspects not quantitative calculations. Rand was attempting to show why ALL coercive collectivism was bad, utilizing an extreme example to, IMO, sort of get her foot in the door.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Kinesis
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2/28/2013 5:05:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 11:01:44 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/28/2013 10:51:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Okay, so I read 'Anthem'. It's pretty much what I expected - a mediocre philosophy derived from an absurd exaggeration of collectivism wrapped in a compelling narrative. It was enjoyable, but hardly something 'unlike anything I've ever read'.

Lol pretty much. That was her style though so lay off ;)

Though in a word of defense, moral works like that can't base themselves simply on inane examples of collectivism. She says in the Romantic Manifesto that good works draw on concepts not contingencies, qualitative aspects not quantitative calculations. Rand was attempting to show why ALL coercive collectivism was bad, utilizing an extreme example to, IMO, sort of get her foot in the door.

In Anthem one of the main themes is the relationship between the protagonist and the 'golden one'. But we're considering a dystopia in which collectivism is taken so far that people are forced to be the same in every achievable respect. Wouldn't an individualist dystopia be a system in which all human relations are cut off and nobody impacts upon anyone else's life in any way? Rand takes the correct system to be between those extremes, but by that point we've already conceded that some collectivism can be a good thing.
Skepsikyma
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2/28/2013 5:41:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/28/2013 5:05:16 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 2/28/2013 11:01:44 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/28/2013 10:51:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Okay, so I read 'Anthem'. It's pretty much what I expected - a mediocre philosophy derived from an absurd exaggeration of collectivism wrapped in a compelling narrative. It was enjoyable, but hardly something 'unlike anything I've ever read'.

Lol pretty much. That was her style though so lay off ;)

Though in a word of defense, moral works like that can't base themselves simply on inane examples of collectivism. She says in the Romantic Manifesto that good works draw on concepts not contingencies, qualitative aspects not quantitative calculations. Rand was attempting to show why ALL coercive collectivism was bad, utilizing an extreme example to, IMO, sort of get her foot in the door.

In Anthem one of the main themes is the relationship between the protagonist and the 'golden one'. But we're considering a dystopia in which collectivism is taken so far that people are forced to be the same in every achievable respect. Wouldn't an individualist dystopia be a system in which all human relations are cut off and nobody impacts upon anyone else's life in any way? Rand takes the correct system to be between those extremes, but by that point we've already conceded that some collectivism can be a good thing.

Rand's stance is that men can benefit from working with one another only under certain conditions which retain their individuality, and that those conditions are rights. Collectivism, to Rand, is considering the 'whole to be more than the sum of its part' in terms of groups of people, not just people living together. One thing which I've noticed makes it difficult for people with a background in philosophy to understand Rand is her tendency to define terms in very specific, and sometimes novel, ways.

Anthem isn't really a good layout of her philosophy, in my opinion, it's more artsy and there are certain hyperbolic lines which can give an entirely mistaken view of the way she sees things.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -