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All man are equal?

suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/7/2013 11:12:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Then why somebody has to pay more tax despite doing a more productive work and other can be lazy, draining a public money, and pay not a single penny tax because they are unemployed?
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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3/7/2013 2:45:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"All men are equal, but some men are more equal than others."
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/7/2013 2:49:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So, a person that makes more money, and pays more taxes, does more productive work? I'd love to see the basis for this conclusion.
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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3/7/2013 3:01:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 2:49:48 PM, drafterman wrote:
So, a person that makes more money, and pays more taxes, does more productive work? I'd love to see the basis for this conclusion.

I think you missed something. It's a relational statement.....they make more money than the unemployed. They pay more taxes than the unemployed. They produce more than the unemployed.

He isn't saying that people who get paid more, work harder.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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3/7/2013 4:23:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 11:12:38 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
Then why somebody has to pay more tax despite doing a more productive work and other can be lazy, draining a public money, and pay not a single penny tax because they are unemployed?

"All men are created equal" Context is everything.

This statement is in reference to "opportunity". It was never meant as a reference to "equality of outcome". All men have the same opportunity to succeed if they play their cards right. This is what this statement is in reference to. This is the idea of the founding fathers of this nation and this was the "intent" of the statement.
weather or not someone pays more taxes or can manipulate the system has nothing to do with it. That is a result of govt manipulation of society. Which of course affects your "equality of opportunity"
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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3/7/2013 5:15:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
And you think trying to get a job and failing = lazy?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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3/7/2013 5:39:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 5:15:09 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
And you think trying to get a job and failing = lazy?

Trying once and giving up is
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/8/2013 10:24:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 3:01:40 PM, Heineken wrote:
At 3/7/2013 2:49:48 PM, drafterman wrote:
So, a person that makes more money, and pays more taxes, does more productive work? I'd love to see the basis for this conclusion.

I think you missed something. It's a relational statement.....they make more money than the unemployed. They pay more taxes than the unemployed. They produce more than the unemployed.

He isn't saying that people who get paid more, work harder.

Thank you, that is a 100 percent of what I am saying. In addition, since all man is equal is a statement made by the state so I suppose it's mean "all man is equal to the state" but that is just illogical, the state depend on some group of citizen than other, how can it perceive everybody as equal. If personal value is equal to Value as human + value of work + value of spirit, character etc. then obviously, some one is going to worth more than the other.
EdwardHaigh
Posts: 5
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3/21/2013 4:51:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 5:15:09 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
And you think trying to get a job and failing = lazy?

It depends if your truely trying. A small percentage see benefits as a loophole to working.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/22/2013 3:55:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 4:23:32 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/7/2013 11:12:38 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
Then why somebody has to pay more tax despite doing a more productive work and other can be lazy, draining a public money, and pay not a single penny tax because they are unemployed?

"All men are created equal" Context is everything.

This statement is in reference to "opportunity". It was never meant as a reference to "equality of outcome". All men have the same opportunity to succeed if they play their cards right.

I don't know...a Royal Flush beats a busted straight every time.

It's not about playing your cards right. It's about playing your cards right after we get to the point where everyone is given the same starting hand.

This is what this statement is in reference to. This is the idea of the founding fathers of this nation and this was the "intent" of the statement.
weather or not someone pays more taxes or can manipulate the system has nothing to do with it. That is a result of govt manipulation of society. Which of course affects your "equality of opportunity"

Also, the only way to create a fair tax system is through the "veil of ignorance." This means that your tax rate is determined before your success or failure is. Anything else is a biased system being sold as "fair".
War is over, if you want it.

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MrBrooks
Posts: 831
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3/22/2013 8:55:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hobbes said that all men are essentially equal in both mind and body; in the sense that even the weakest man can kill the strongest man, and that prudential knowledge is based on experience, which is attained only in the course of time and not by any inherent trait or ability. This is the best argument I've come across in favor of all men being created equally.
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/22/2013 12:09:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Frankly, what I believed is that all man is not equal at all, physically, spiritually, and most important intelligently. Right of man in its truest form is equal to the individual capability to maintain and control resource (including people) which could range from having money, in the position to influence law (judge), being charismatic, being manipulative. Thus individual right is equal to individual strength we simply ignored this cause and label it as all man are equal, I don't know what is it original purpose but at least it make people more governable.

And by extension, political system that based completely on equality of man (socialism, communism) is more likely to fall because it is against the nature of man and resource must be spend to make sure that all man is equal. So it is weaker in structural basic.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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3/22/2013 12:23:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 11:12:38 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
Then why somebody has to pay more tax despite doing a more productive work and other can be lazy, draining a public money, and pay not a single penny tax because they are unemployed?

All men are equal, in that they are treated the same when in the same situation. Not in the sense that we have to give the exact same to everyone no matter their situation. The second is an absurd notion. For instance, orphans. They receive help from the government that they would receive from the parent they might have had. Like rent allowance, when they turn 18. And educational funding, for high school and college. Do you believe we should give that to everyone, or just those that need it? Or how about the situation you seem to be ranting on, the unemployed. Many unemployed people receive unemployment checks. And I would agree with the sentiment that a lot are simply collecting this rather then bothering with a job. But what about those that actually can't find a job? Would you rather we let them become homeless and starve on the street? When you try and help the less fortunate, it always leaves an opening for some people to game the system. You have two options; help the less fortunate, and be as watchful as possible about those trying to game the system. Or let the less fortunate drown in their situation. Personally, I believe the former is the only acceptable option.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/24/2013 12:27:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Flat tax rate for everyone.

BOOM problem solved. And if you think about it, it's quite logical. The rich still technically "pay more".

For example: a 10% flat income tax.

Person A makes $10,000 and pays $1,000 in taxes.

Person B makes $1,000,000 and pays $100,000 in taxes.

Same rate, rich pay more. IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE.

Why hasn't this happened yet?
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/24/2013 3:00:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 12:27:39 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Flat tax rate for everyone.

BOOM problem solved. And if you think about it, it's quite logical. The rich still technically "pay more".

For example: a 10% flat income tax.

Person A makes $10,000 and pays $1,000 in taxes.

Person B makes $1,000,000 and pays $100,000 in taxes.

Same rate, rich pay more. IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE.

Why hasn't this happened yet?

Because if you only make $10K in a year, having $1000 of it taken away could be the difference between eating and not eating.

Also, rich people hate paying tax on all their income.
War is over, if you want it.

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suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/24/2013 11:41:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's not like the poor people like to do it either but I agree with you that taxing the very poor or the minor entrepreneur will only increase public outrage and the chase of bankruptcy.

What I don't understand is that while you recognized the rich superiority in their contribution to public work, what reason can you claim yourself to be equal politically in the public. It is more like almost the entire national budget is paid by the rich tax, what justification can you came up to use their money for your benefit?
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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3/24/2013 3:47:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The strong helping the weak is something that makes humanity great. If the roles for those same men were reversed, the situation would be the same.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/24/2013 10:50:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Agreed but that's only counted as the strong willingly help the weak. In fact when you recognised someone as the stronger, you already recognised his value over you, how has it is not been realised in politic?
APB
Posts: 267
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3/29/2013 12:18:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 11:12:38 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
Then why somebody has to pay more tax despite doing a more productive work and other can be lazy, draining a public money, and pay not a single penny tax because they are unemployed?

Numerical properties such as height, weight or income can be compared and said to be greater, lesser or equal. Categorical data such as gender, ethnicity or occupation can't be talked about in the same way, because this makes no sense. A person as a whole is categorical data, so comparing two people and asking if they're equal or not makes no sense. Social Studies teachers use the concept of "equality" incorrectly.