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What are the argument for freewill?

thett3
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4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dylancatlow
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4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.
FREEDO
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4/12/2013 11:11:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Indeterminism is not free-will. No one even knows what they mean by free-will. Unless it's being used in a practical or poetic sense.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
thett3
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4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?
DDO Vice President

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#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dylancatlow
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4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"
thett3
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4/12/2013 11:17:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

So absolute free will, than yeah saying that outside factors have no influence on humans and their choices is really stupid. However you've yet to present an argument for why actual choice does not exist in certain scenarios
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/12/2013 11:17:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:11:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Indeterminism is not free-will. No one even knows what they mean by free-will. Unless it's being used in a practical or poetic sense.

Exactly. One being at the whim of things outside of one's control, whether that be the past or random quantum shenanigans, makes freewill an impossibility.
dylancatlow
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4/12/2013 11:19:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:17:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

So absolute free will, than yeah saying that outside factors have no influence on humans and their choices is really stupid. However you've yet to present an argument for why actual choice does not exist in certain scenarios

I wouldn't say 'influence' goes far enough, because even people that believe freewill exists would concede that one's environment influences how one acts.

I don't know what you mean by 'actual choice.'
thett3
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4/12/2013 11:20:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:19:17 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:17:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

So absolute free will, than yeah saying that outside factors have no influence on humans and their choices is really stupid. However you've yet to present an argument for why actual choice does not exist in certain scenarios

I wouldn't say 'influence' goes far enough, because even people that believe freewill exists would concede that one's environment influences how one acts.

I don't know what you mean by 'actual choice.'

As in, while other factors might *influence* the decision, what evidence do you have that they *determine* them?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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4/12/2013 11:22:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I really think the lack of understanding of consciousness and the difficult manner of defining "free will" makes these debates functionally useless
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/12/2013 11:23:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:20:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:19:17 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:17:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

So absolute free will, than yeah saying that outside factors have no influence on humans and their choices is really stupid. However you've yet to present an argument for why actual choice does not exist in certain scenarios

I wouldn't say 'influence' goes far enough, because even people that believe freewill exists would concede that one's environment influences how one acts.

I don't know what you mean by 'actual choice.'

As in, while other factors might *influence* the decision, what evidence do you have that they *determine* them?

If 'other factors' is defined as the person's brain and all the things they interact with, then I don't know what other conclusion can be reached other than that of determinism.
thett3
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4/12/2013 11:25:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:23:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:20:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:19:17 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:17:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

So absolute free will, than yeah saying that outside factors have no influence on humans and their choices is really stupid. However you've yet to present an argument for why actual choice does not exist in certain scenarios

I wouldn't say 'influence' goes far enough, because even people that believe freewill exists would concede that one's environment influences how one acts.

I don't know what you mean by 'actual choice.'

As in, while other factors might *influence* the decision, what evidence do you have that they *determine* them?

If 'other factors' is defined as the person's brain and all the things they interact with, then I don't know what other conclusion can be reached other than that of determinism.

The persons brain is the persons mind, so obviously it wouldn't be included in the definition of other factors. Again, what evidence do you have that everything the brain does is pre determined? I'm open to being convinced
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/12/2013 11:27:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:22:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
I really think the lack of understanding of consciousness and the difficult manner of defining "free will" makes these debates functionally useless

Essentially, I'm saying human's have just as much 'freewill' as an apple falling off a tree does as it falls to the ground.
dylancatlow
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4/12/2013 11:27:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:27:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:22:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
I really think the lack of understanding of consciousness and the difficult manner of defining "free will" makes these debates functionally useless

Essentially, I'm saying human's have just as much 'freewill' as an apple falling off a tree does as it falls to the ground.

humans*
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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4/12/2013 11:28:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:27:50 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:27:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:22:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
I really think the lack of understanding of consciousness and the difficult manner of defining "free will" makes these debates functionally useless

Essentially, I'm saying human's have just as much 'freewill' as an apple falling off a tree does as it falls to the ground.

humans*

but why do you come to that conclusion?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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4/12/2013 11:29:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:22:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
I really think the lack of understanding of consciousness and the difficult manner of defining "free will" makes these debates functionally useless

I agree and have said the same thing about the "God" debates, the "abortion" debates and most of the same sex marriage debates. Indeed, most debates are pointless (in an intellectual sense), but the thing to keep in mind is that debating is generally like masturbation. It's quite a futile, sometimes exhausting exercise but often produces a pleasurable effect.
dylancatlow
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4/12/2013 11:30:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:25:31 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:23:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:20:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:19:17 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:17:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

So absolute free will, than yeah saying that outside factors have no influence on humans and their choices is really stupid. However you've yet to present an argument for why actual choice does not exist in certain scenarios

I wouldn't say 'influence' goes far enough, because even people that believe freewill exists would concede that one's environment influences how one acts.

I don't know what you mean by 'actual choice.'

As in, while other factors might *influence* the decision, what evidence do you have that they *determine* them?

If 'other factors' is defined as the person's brain and all the things they interact with, then I don't know what other conclusion can be reached other than that of determinism.

The persons brain is the persons mind, so obviously it wouldn't be included in the definition of other factors. Again, what evidence do you have that everything the brain does is pre determined? I'm open to being convinced

The person making the decision is not going to intentionally pull a decision out of a hat with no regard to the past state of their life. This would be impossible. Because it's not someone's choice to be born, freewill, therefore, cannot exist.
dylancatlow
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4/12/2013 11:31:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:28:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:27:50 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:27:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:22:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
I really think the lack of understanding of consciousness and the difficult manner of defining "free will" makes these debates functionally useless

Essentially, I'm saying human's have just as much 'freewill' as an apple falling off a tree does as it falls to the ground.

humans*

but why do you come to that conclusion?

Because logically, the brain being different in this regard to an apple makes no sense at all.
BlackVoid
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4/12/2013 11:32:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life...

So you don't think Determinism undermines your religion?
thett3
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4/12/2013 11:33:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:30:28 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:25:31 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:23:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:20:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:19:17 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:17:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

So absolute free will, than yeah saying that outside factors have no influence on humans and their choices is really stupid. However you've yet to present an argument for why actual choice does not exist in certain scenarios

I wouldn't say 'influence' goes far enough, because even people that believe freewill exists would concede that one's environment influences how one acts.

I don't know what you mean by 'actual choice.'

As in, while other factors might *influence* the decision, what evidence do you have that they *determine* them?

If 'other factors' is defined as the person's brain and all the things they interact with, then I don't know what other conclusion can be reached other than that of determinism.

The persons brain is the persons mind, so obviously it wouldn't be included in the definition of other factors. Again, what evidence do you have that everything the brain does is pre determined? I'm open to being convinced

The person making the decision is not going to intentionally pull a decision out of a hat with no regard to the past state of their life.

Dude, I already said the position of libertarian free will is retarded, but it doesn't really follow that people have no choices within the context of outside factors...honestly how can this be proven one way or another given the disagreement among philosophers and scientists regarding what conciousness actually is and the indeterminate nature of the universe?

This would be impossible. Because it's not someone's choice to be born, freewill, therefore, cannot exist.

wut
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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4/12/2013 11:34:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:28:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:27:50 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:27:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:22:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
I really think the lack of understanding of consciousness and the difficult manner of defining "free will" makes these debates functionally useless

Essentially, I'm saying human's have just as much 'freewill' as an apple falling off a tree does as it falls to the ground.

humans*

but why do you come to that conclusion?

Do you believe in a soul?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
thett3
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4/12/2013 11:36:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:32:42 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life...

So you don't think Determinism undermines your religion?

Well I mean to say that the intellectual debate has nothing to do with my life because it cant be proven one way or the other, at leastnot yet. Same with the arguments for or against God..basically what YYW said
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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4/12/2013 11:36:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:34:02 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:28:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:27:50 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:27:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:22:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
I really think the lack of understanding of consciousness and the difficult manner of defining "free will" makes these debates functionally useless

Essentially, I'm saying human's have just as much 'freewill' as an apple falling off a tree does as it falls to the ground.

humans*

but why do you come to that conclusion?

Do you believe in a soul?

I believe in it. I cant claim to prove it, but I believe in it as a Christian
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/12/2013 11:37:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:33:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:30:28 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:25:31 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:23:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:20:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:19:17 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:17:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

So absolute free will, than yeah saying that outside factors have no influence on humans and their choices is really stupid. However you've yet to present an argument for why actual choice does not exist in certain scenarios

I wouldn't say 'influence' goes far enough, because even people that believe freewill exists would concede that one's environment influences how one acts.

I don't know what you mean by 'actual choice.'

As in, while other factors might *influence* the decision, what evidence do you have that they *determine* them?

If 'other factors' is defined as the person's brain and all the things they interact with, then I don't know what other conclusion can be reached other than that of determinism.

The persons brain is the persons mind, so obviously it wouldn't be included in the definition of other factors. Again, what evidence do you have that everything the brain does is pre determined? I'm open to being convinced

The person making the decision is not going to intentionally pull a decision out of a hat with no regard to the past state of their life.

Dude, I already said the position of libertarian free will is retarded, but it doesn't really follow that people have no choices within the context of outside factors...honestly how can this be proven one way or another given the disagreement among philosophers and scientists regarding what conciousness actually is and the indeterminate nature of the universe?

This would be impossible. Because it's not someone's choice to be born, freewill, therefore, cannot exist.

wut

What do you mean by 'libertarian free will'?

How could someone have a choice independent of past events? What would that even look like?

It doesn't matter what consciousness is to have a discussion on free will.
BlackVoid
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4/12/2013 11:39:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:36:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:32:42 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life...

So you don't think Determinism undermines your religion?

Well I mean to say that the intellectual debate has nothing to do with my life because it cant be proven one way or the other, at leastnot yet. Same with the arguments for or against God..basically what YYW said

But you have a strong position on God. If arguments for/against God and arguments for/against determinism are both futile, then why the distinction?
thett3
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4/12/2013 11:39:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:37:38 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:33:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:30:28 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:25:31 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:23:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:20:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:19:17 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:17:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:15:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:12:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:11:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life, but I have heard the argument that the in-deterministic nature of quantum physics undermines the old deterministic idea of everything being certain. I'll admit my expertise is limited to say the very least though, but heres a short video on it:


Even if things are not predetermined, that doesn't mean we have freewill. I don't understand how that leap is made.

But it means determinism is false. I mean, are you specifically referring to libertarian free will, because yeah thats stupid. What doyou mean by free will?

"freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

So absolute free will, than yeah saying that outside factors have no influence on humans and their choices is really stupid. However you've yet to present an argument for why actual choice does not exist in certain scenarios

I wouldn't say 'influence' goes far enough, because even people that believe freewill exists would concede that one's environment influences how one acts.

I don't know what you mean by 'actual choice.'

As in, while other factors might *influence* the decision, what evidence do you have that they *determine* them?

If 'other factors' is defined as the person's brain and all the things they interact with, then I don't know what other conclusion can be reached other than that of determinism.

The persons brain is the persons mind, so obviously it wouldn't be included in the definition of other factors. Again, what evidence do you have that everything the brain does is pre determined? I'm open to being convinced

The person making the decision is not going to intentionally pull a decision out of a hat with no regard to the past state of their life.

Dude, I already said the position of libertarian free will is retarded, but it doesn't really follow that people have no choices within the context of outside factors...honestly how can this be proven one way or another given the disagreement among philosophers and scientists regarding what conciousness actually is and the indeterminate nature of the universe?

This would be impossible. Because it's not someone's choice to be born, freewill, therefore, cannot exist.

wut

What do you mean by 'libertarian free will'?

How could someone have a choice independent of past events? What would that even look like?

As far as I understand it, libertarian free will is basically that (the bolded) and its retarded. I could be incorrect though.


It doesn't matter what consciousness is to have a discussion on free will.

Err yes it does considering conciousness/the mind is where decisions are going to be made. If we dont know what that actually looks like scientifically, how can we prove for sure one way or the other what effects anything has on it?
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bossyburrito
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4/12/2013 11:39:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:36:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:34:02 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:28:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:27:50 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:27:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:22:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
I really think the lack of understanding of consciousness and the difficult manner of defining "free will" makes these debates functionally useless

Essentially, I'm saying human's have just as much 'freewill' as an apple falling off a tree does as it falls to the ground.

humans*

but why do you come to that conclusion?

Do you believe in a soul?

I believe in it. I cant claim to prove it, but I believe in it as a Christian

Do you think that consciousness is separate from the "material world"?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
dylancatlow
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4/12/2013 11:39:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:36:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:32:42 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life...

So you don't think Determinism undermines your religion?

Well I mean to say that the intellectual debate has nothing to do with my life because it cant be proven one way or the other, at leastnot yet. Same with the arguments for or against God..basically what YYW said

You say God cannot be proven one way or the other, yet you are a Christian. I highly doubt your Christian faith has 'nothing to do with your life.'

Contradictions, contradictions.
thett3
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4/12/2013 11:40:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/12/2013 11:39:11 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:36:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:32:42 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 4/12/2013 11:08:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have no strong opinion since its literally irrelevant to my life...

So you don't think Determinism undermines your religion?

Well I mean to say that the intellectual debate has nothing to do with my life because it cant be proven one way or the other, at leastnot yet. Same with the arguments for or against God..basically what YYW said

But you have a strong position on God. If arguments for/against God and arguments for/against determinism are both futile, then why the distinction?

Simply because I havent read much into the issue, it doesnt interest me as much. i dont have like an inherent or intellectual reason for the God debate mattering more to me than free will
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right