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Interesting thought experiment

dylancatlow
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4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.
dylancatlow
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4/17/2013 12:03:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.

But what if the machine took all this into account? It's assumed it can simulate reality to perfection.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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4/17/2013 12:09:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

It would keep changing until the knowledge it provides keeps the future the same as it predicted.
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ConservativePolitico
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4/17/2013 12:12:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:03:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.

But what if the machine took all this into account? It's assumed it can simulate reality to perfection.

Even if that's true, with each use that perfect reality prediction would change making the prediction obsolete.

Use the weather as an example. Say the weather changed every time someone checked the weather. I check: sunny. You check: cloudy. Now it's cloudy and my report is now obsolete.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/17/2013 12:13:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:09:44 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

It would keep changing until the knowledge it provides keeps the future the same as it predicted.

But what it predicts affects the future.
dylancatlow
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4/17/2013 12:15:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:12:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:03:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.

But what if the machine took all this into account? It's assumed it can simulate reality to perfection.

Even if that's true, with each use that perfect reality prediction would change making the prediction obsolete.

Use the weather as an example. Say the weather changed every time someone checked the weather. I check: sunny. You check: cloudy. Now it's cloudy and my report is now obsolete.

You don't understand -- it can predict the future, including any and all of the effects of its predictions.
ConservativePolitico
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4/17/2013 12:17:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:15:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:12:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:03:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.

But what if the machine took all this into account? It's assumed it can simulate reality to perfection.

Even if that's true, with each use that perfect reality prediction would change making the prediction obsolete.

Use the weather as an example. Say the weather changed every time someone checked the weather. I check: sunny. You check: cloudy. Now it's cloudy and my report is now obsolete.

You don't understand -- it can predict the future, including any and all of the effects of its predictions.

I know that. What I'm saying, is every time a new person uses it to predict something, it changes the variable and the entire outcome could change. The machine works in real time I take it. It would factor this new variable in every time someone used it and the outcome would change.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/17/2013 12:18:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:17:02 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:15:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:12:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:03:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.

But what if the machine took all this into account? It's assumed it can simulate reality to perfection.

Even if that's true, with each use that perfect reality prediction would change making the prediction obsolete.

Use the weather as an example. Say the weather changed every time someone checked the weather. I check: sunny. You check: cloudy. Now it's cloudy and my report is now obsolete.

You don't understand -- it can predict the future, including any and all of the effects of its predictions.

I know that. What I'm saying, is every time a new person uses it to predict something, it changes the variable and the entire outcome could change. The machine works in real time I take it. It would factor this new variable in every time someone used it and the outcome would change.

The machine takes all future influences it will have into account, and all effects of these influences on the present would be taken into account indefinitely.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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4/17/2013 12:21:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:18:49 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:17:02 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:15:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:12:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:03:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.

But what if the machine took all this into account? It's assumed it can simulate reality to perfection.

Even if that's true, with each use that perfect reality prediction would change making the prediction obsolete.

Use the weather as an example. Say the weather changed every time someone checked the weather. I check: sunny. You check: cloudy. Now it's cloudy and my report is now obsolete.

You don't understand -- it can predict the future, including any and all of the effects of its predictions.

I know that. What I'm saying, is every time a new person uses it to predict something, it changes the variable and the entire outcome could change. The machine works in real time I take it. It would factor this new variable in every time someone used it and the outcome would change.

The machine takes all future influences it will have into account, and all effects of these influences on the present would be taken into account indefinitely.

Well then it would plop out a single future for all to view.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/17/2013 12:24:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:21:29 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:18:49 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:17:02 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:15:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:12:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:03:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.

But what if the machine took all this into account? It's assumed it can simulate reality to perfection.

Even if that's true, with each use that perfect reality prediction would change making the prediction obsolete.

Use the weather as an example. Say the weather changed every time someone checked the weather. I check: sunny. You check: cloudy. Now it's cloudy and my report is now obsolete.

You don't understand -- it can predict the future, including any and all of the effects of its predictions.

I know that. What I'm saying, is every time a new person uses it to predict something, it changes the variable and the entire outcome could change. The machine works in real time I take it. It would factor this new variable in every time someone used it and the outcome would change.

The machine takes all future influences it will have into account, and all effects of these influences on the present would be taken into account indefinitely.

Well then it would plop out a single future for all to view.

What if it informs you that you will eat a sandwich tomorrow, can you choose to not have one?
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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4/17/2013 12:26:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:24:19 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:21:29 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:18:49 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:17:02 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:15:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:12:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:03:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.

But what if the machine took all this into account? It's assumed it can simulate reality to perfection.

Even if that's true, with each use that perfect reality prediction would change making the prediction obsolete.

Use the weather as an example. Say the weather changed every time someone checked the weather. I check: sunny. You check: cloudy. Now it's cloudy and my report is now obsolete.

You don't understand -- it can predict the future, including any and all of the effects of its predictions.

I know that. What I'm saying, is every time a new person uses it to predict something, it changes the variable and the entire outcome could change. The machine works in real time I take it. It would factor this new variable in every time someone used it and the outcome would change.

The machine takes all future influences it will have into account, and all effects of these influences on the present would be taken into account indefinitely.

Well then it would plop out a single future for all to view.

What if it informs you that you will eat a sandwich tomorrow, can you choose to not have one?

I would say yes, because new information injected into your system would affect the way you acted going into the next day.

Unless this information was given to you taking into account that you would be told you would eat a sandwich tomorrow in that case then no you can't choose not to.

The future is a slippery thing to deal with logically.
glassplotful
Posts: 52
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4/17/2013 2:34:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

Sounds like the Halting Problem.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/17/2013 8:11:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

I'm going to throw a curve-ball and say that such a machine would have to take up all of the space in the universe. The smallest particle plugged into the machine could only be represented by the smallest particle.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/17/2013 8:41:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 8:11:37 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

I'm going to throw a curve-ball and say that such a machine would have to take up all of the space in the universe. The smallest particle plugged into the machine could only be represented by the smallest particle.

Look up planck length. It's a thought experiment, so it doesn't really have to be feasible. Interesting thought, though!
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/17/2013 8:48:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 8:41:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 8:11:37 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

I'm going to throw a curve-ball and say that such a machine would have to take up all of the space in the universe. The smallest particle plugged into the machine could only be represented by the smallest particle.

Look up planck length. It's a thought experiment, so it doesn't really have to be feasible. Interesting thought, though!

The Planck length is the distance light travels in a Planck moment, not necessarily the smallest length possible.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/17/2013 8:51:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 8:48:53 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 8:41:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 8:11:37 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

I'm going to throw a curve-ball and say that such a machine would have to take up all of the space in the universe. The smallest particle plugged into the machine could only be represented by the smallest particle.

Look up planck length. It's a thought experiment, so it doesn't really have to be feasible. Interesting thought, though!

The Planck length is the distance light travels in a Planck moment, not necessarily the smallest length possible.

Other way around.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/17/2013 8:58:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 8:51:23 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 8:48:53 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 8:41:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 8:11:37 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

I'm going to throw a curve-ball and say that such a machine would have to take up all of the space in the universe. The smallest particle plugged into the machine could only be represented by the smallest particle.

Look up planck length. It's a thought experiment, so it doesn't really have to be feasible. Interesting thought, though!

The Planck length is the distance light travels in a Planck moment, not necessarily the smallest length possible.

Other way around.

The Planck moment is the time it takes for light to travel one Planck length, same thing.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/17/2013 9:03:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 8:51:23 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 8:48:53 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 8:41:05 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 8:11:37 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

I'm going to throw a curve-ball and say that such a machine would have to take up all of the space in the universe. The smallest particle plugged into the machine could only be represented by the smallest particle.

Look up planck length. It's a thought experiment, so it doesn't really have to be feasible. Interesting thought, though!

The Planck length is the distance light travels in a Planck moment, not necessarily the smallest length possible.

Other way around.

I see what you mean, though - just looked it up. I had only looked up the Planck moment before, when someone said it was the shortest possible moment.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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4/17/2013 10:08:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:24:19 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:21:29 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:18:49 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:17:02 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:15:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:12:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:03:02 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:02:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
If anyone could use this machine then it would never work because when each new person used the machine the future would change based on what they learned thus changing all of the previous results of the machine thusfar.

It would work if one person could look into it and report the findings as they saw fit.

But what if the machine took all this into account? It's assumed it can simulate reality to perfection.

Even if that's true, with each use that perfect reality prediction would change making the prediction obsolete.

Use the weather as an example. Say the weather changed every time someone checked the weather. I check: sunny. You check: cloudy. Now it's cloudy and my report is now obsolete.

You don't understand -- it can predict the future, including any and all of the effects of its predictions.

I know that. What I'm saying, is every time a new person uses it to predict something, it changes the variable and the entire outcome could change. The machine works in real time I take it. It would factor this new variable in every time someone used it and the outcome would change.

The machine takes all future influences it will have into account, and all effects of these influences on the present would be taken into account indefinitely.

Well then it would plop out a single future for all to view.

What if it informs you that you will eat a sandwich tomorrow, can you choose to not have one?

What if it can't deterministically predict that you will eat a sandwich tomorrow and instead it plops out multiple futures or the probabilities of various possible futures happening? There's a 62% chance that you'll eat a sandwich tomorrow.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/18/2013 8:46:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

Lets say it predicted I was going to go to Mcdonalds tomorrow, I could just go to Wendys. Therefore "The machine takes itself into account" argument doesn't work. It wouldn't matter what the machine took into account, I could always change it based on what the information the machine brings.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/18/2013 9:28:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/18/2013 8:46:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

Lets say it predicted I was going to go to Mcdonalds tomorrow, I could just go to Wendys. Therefore "The machine takes itself into account" argument doesn't work. It wouldn't matter what the machine took into account, I could always change it based on what the information the machine brings.

In other words, such a machine is impossible.. big surprise there.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/18/2013 9:32:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/18/2013 8:46:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

Lets say it predicted I was going to go to Mcdonalds tomorrow, I could just go to Wendys. Therefore "The machine takes itself into account" argument doesn't work. It wouldn't matter what the machine took into account, I could always change it based on what the information the machine brings.

The machine wouldn't predict something incorrectly.
Enji
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4/18/2013 9:36:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/18/2013 9:34:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I hope at least one person understands what I'm getting at.

Determinism.
Sidewalker
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4/18/2013 9:50:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

When does the interesting part come in?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/18/2013 9:55:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/18/2013 9:50:13 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

When does the interesting part come in?

It's interesting if you understand it.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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4/18/2013 10:07:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/18/2013 9:55:25 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/18/2013 9:50:13 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

When does the interesting part come in?

It's interesting if you understand it.

If no one understands it, then you probably didn't explain it well enough.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/18/2013 10:17:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/18/2013 10:07:59 PM, Enji wrote:
At 4/18/2013 9:55:25 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/18/2013 9:50:13 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

When does the interesting part come in?

It's interesting if you understand it.

If no one understands it, then you probably didn't explain it well enough.

What would it look like if the future was predicted perfectly, including the changes to the future caused by the future being known before the future.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/18/2013 10:24:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/18/2013 10:17:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/18/2013 10:07:59 PM, Enji wrote:
At 4/18/2013 9:55:25 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/18/2013 9:50:13 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/17/2013 11:59:25 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine that a machine is developed to predict future events to the smallest detail. Every atom's location and velocity, as well as anything else that is contained within reality is plugged into this machine. It uses this data to simulate the universe, and reports its findings back...to the present. The machine takes itself into account, and any changes to the future caused by the future being known ahead of time are used to predict the future. My question is: how would the future be predicted if the prediction causes the future to be different, and this difference is then reported back to the present and any change then causes yet another change to the future.

When does the interesting part come in?

It's interesting if you understand it.

If no one understands it, then you probably didn't explain it well enough.

What would it look like if the future was predicted perfectly, including the changes to the future caused by the future being known before the future.

And as Rational_Thinker9119 said, you could always change what you do after you see the results. If you see yourself do anything in five minutes from now, like, say, speak, you could always choose not to speak. You're saying that the machine would take that into account, but unless it's controlling your mind there's no way it can keep you from altering it's prediction after you see it. This machine is impossible, and not just physically - it's impossible to conceive of a scenario in which using this machine makes any sense at all.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.