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What the hell does postmodernism mean?

Eitan_Zohar
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4/26/2013 2:25:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm sick of being totally clueless every time someone uses this word. I tired to look up the definition but it isn't clear at all.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/26/2013 3:59:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Postmodernism: pseudo-intellectual Trojan Horse of tyrants everywhere in the western world. Began in Arts faculties in various universities under "thinkers" like Derrida, Baudrillard, Foucault and Irigaray, and spread like a cancer into at least the "soft" sciences, if not further afield.

Works insidiously by establishing in the minds of the faithful that there are no ultimate truths in either a moral or a scientific sense, and dressing up bullsh!t in flowery language. Postmodernism pretends to be a guarantor of pluralism (a concept far better served, btw, by rational debate), and is in love with concepts such as the "transgressive" and the "paradigm shift". Unfortunately these matters are brought up in the midst of reams and reams of tendentious twaddle which constitute a dreadful waste of perfectly good trees, and the most notable effect of postmodernist (un)thinking is not the freeing of anyone's mind from conservative tyranny, but the scrapping of the very idea of objective truth. Once this happens, of course, what follows (outside the ivory towers).

http://www.urbandictionary.com...
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Eitan_Zohar
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4/26/2013 4:26:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 3:59:58 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Postmodernism: pseudo-intellectual Trojan Horse of tyrants everywhere in the western world. Began in Arts faculties in various universities under "thinkers" like Derrida, Baudrillard, Foucault and Irigaray, and spread like a cancer into at least the "soft" sciences, if not further afield.

Works insidiously by establishing in the minds of the faithful that there are no ultimate truths in either a moral or a scientific sense, and dressing up bullsh!t in flowery language. Postmodernism pretends to be a guarantor of pluralism (a concept far better served, btw, by rational debate), and is in love with concepts such as the "transgressive" and the "paradigm shift". Unfortunately these matters are brought up in the midst of reams and reams of tendentious twaddle which constitute a dreadful waste of perfectly good trees, and the most notable effect of postmodernist (un)thinking is not the freeing of anyone's mind from conservative tyranny, but the scrapping of the very idea of objective truth. Once this happens, of course, what follows (outside the ivory towers).

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

Still don't get anything.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/26/2013 4:57:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 4:26:29 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:59:58 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Postmodernism: pseudo-intellectual Trojan Horse of tyrants everywhere in the western world. Began in Arts faculties in various universities under "thinkers" like Derrida, Baudrillard, Foucault and Irigaray, and spread like a cancer into at least the "soft" sciences, if not further afield.

Works insidiously by establishing in the minds of the faithful that there are no ultimate truths in either a moral or a scientific sense, and dressing up bullsh!t in flowery language. Postmodernism pretends to be a guarantor of pluralism (a concept far better served, btw, by rational debate), and is in love with concepts such as the "transgressive" and the "paradigm shift". Unfortunately these matters are brought up in the midst of reams and reams of tendentious twaddle which constitute a dreadful waste of perfectly good trees, and the most notable effect of postmodernist (un)thinking is not the freeing of anyone's mind from conservative tyranny, but the scrapping of the very idea of objective truth. Once this happens, of course, what follows (outside the ivory towers).

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

Still don't get anything.

I think that's the idea.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/26/2013 5:57:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There's a difference between Postmodernism and Postmodern Theory. The former refers to the era that follows Modernism and refers to a whole set of cultural phenomena, works of art, film, literature, etc., that challenge/critique major narratives of the Enlightenment. The latter generally refers to deconstruction and/or other related philosophies.

For me it's important to keep that distinction in mind cause, save for a few exceptions, I really can't stand reading postmodern philosophy whereas I thoroughly enjoy most postmodern art, literature, and film.
Sui_Generis
Posts: 493
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4/26/2013 7:00:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Postmodernism refers to a lot of things... mostly a lot of things all in the same body of ideas. It revolves around, as WSA said, the idea that everything is relative and there is no truth. Of course, the positive statement "there is no truth" didn't last long due to it's self-referential incoherency, so we're in what is really "postpostmodernism" though it won't be called that in ten, or probably even five years.
"Mundus vult decipi--the world wants to be deceived. The truth is too complex and frightening; the taste for the truth is an acquired taste that few acquire."
-Martin Buber, I and Thou
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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4/26/2013 7:20:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:57:57 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
There's a difference between Postmodernism and Postmodern Theory. The former refers to the era that follows Modernism and refers to a whole set of cultural phenomena, works of art, film, literature, etc., that challenge/critique major narratives of the Enlightenment.

That's the definition I got. I still have no clue what it means.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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4/26/2013 12:53:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 3:59:58 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Postmodernism: pseudo-intellectual Trojan Horse of tyrants everywhere in the western world. Began in Arts faculties in various universities under "thinkers" like Derrida, Baudrillard, Foucault and Irigaray, and spread like a cancer into at least the "soft" sciences, if not further afield.

Works insidiously by establishing in the minds of the faithful that there are no ultimate truths in either a moral or a scientific sense, and dressing up bullsh!t in flowery language. Postmodernism pretends to be a guarantor of pluralism (a concept far better served, btw, by rational debate), and is in love with concepts such as the "transgressive" and the "paradigm shift". Unfortunately these matters are brought up in the midst of reams and reams of tendentious twaddle which constitute a dreadful waste of perfectly good trees, and the most notable effect of postmodernist (un)thinking is not the freeing of anyone's mind from conservative tyranny, but the scrapping of the very idea of objective truth. Once this happens, of course, what follows (outside the ivory towers).

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

I sometimes hate you ;)
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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4/26/2013 1:06:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:53:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:59:58 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Postmodernism: pseudo-intellectual Trojan Horse of tyrants everywhere in the western world. Began in Arts faculties in various universities under "thinkers" like Derrida, Baudrillard, Foucault and Irigaray, and spread like a cancer into at least the "soft" sciences, if not further afield.

Works insidiously by establishing in the minds of the faithful that there are no ultimate truths in either a moral or a scientific sense, and dressing up bullsh!t in flowery language. Postmodernism pretends to be a guarantor of pluralism (a concept far better served, btw, by rational debate), and is in love with concepts such as the "transgressive" and the "paradigm shift". Unfortunately these matters are brought up in the midst of reams and reams of tendentious twaddle which constitute a dreadful waste of perfectly good trees, and the most notable effect of postmodernist (un)thinking is not the freeing of anyone's mind from conservative tyranny, but the scrapping of the very idea of objective truth. Once this happens, of course, what follows (outside the ivory towers).

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

I sometimes hate you ;)

Do you have a coherent answer?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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4/26/2013 1:18:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 1:06:12 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/26/2013 12:53:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:59:58 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Postmodernism: pseudo-intellectual Trojan Horse of tyrants everywhere in the western world. Began in Arts faculties in various universities under "thinkers" like Derrida, Baudrillard, Foucault and Irigaray, and spread like a cancer into at least the "soft" sciences, if not further afield.

Works insidiously by establishing in the minds of the faithful that there are no ultimate truths in either a moral or a scientific sense, and dressing up bullsh!t in flowery language. Postmodernism pretends to be a guarantor of pluralism (a concept far better served, btw, by rational debate), and is in love with concepts such as the "transgressive" and the "paradigm shift". Unfortunately these matters are brought up in the midst of reams and reams of tendentious twaddle which constitute a dreadful waste of perfectly good trees, and the most notable effect of postmodernist (un)thinking is not the freeing of anyone's mind from conservative tyranny, but the scrapping of the very idea of objective truth. Once this happens, of course, what follows (outside the ivory towers).

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

I sometimes hate you ;)

Do you have a coherent answer?

Postmodernism means a lot of different things to different people. It was an intellectual reaction to the modernist tradition that began in the late 1960s in some circles, but really came to fruition by the end of the 1970s. Postmodernism is significant in that it is a rejection of Modernism.

So, here's the deal:

(1) Foucault isn't a "postmodernist" and the urban dictionary review sounds like it was written by a 1st year philosophy major. Don't fvck with Foucault.

(2) If there is one central idea about postmodernism, it's that it is a rejection of simplistic narratives, ideas, models and constructs in favor of embracing complexity.

(3) Giving a simple definition of "postmodernism" wouldn't be true to the movement. It's complex, pluralistic, multivariant, and of all things it changes over time.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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4/26/2013 1:23:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 1:18:55 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/26/2013 1:06:12 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/26/2013 12:53:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:59:58 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Postmodernism: pseudo-intellectual Trojan Horse of tyrants everywhere in the western world. Began in Arts faculties in various universities under "thinkers" like Derrida, Baudrillard, Foucault and Irigaray, and spread like a cancer into at least the "soft" sciences, if not further afield.

Works insidiously by establishing in the minds of the faithful that there are no ultimate truths in either a moral or a scientific sense, and dressing up bullsh!t in flowery language. Postmodernism pretends to be a guarantor of pluralism (a concept far better served, btw, by rational debate), and is in love with concepts such as the "transgressive" and the "paradigm shift". Unfortunately these matters are brought up in the midst of reams and reams of tendentious twaddle which constitute a dreadful waste of perfectly good trees, and the most notable effect of postmodernist (un)thinking is not the freeing of anyone's mind from conservative tyranny, but the scrapping of the very idea of objective truth. Once this happens, of course, what follows (outside the ivory towers).

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

I sometimes hate you ;)

Do you have a coherent answer?

Postmodernism means a lot of different things to different people. It was an intellectual reaction to the modernist tradition that began in the late 1960s in some circles, but really came to fruition by the end of the 1970s. Postmodernism is significant in that it is a rejection of Modernism.

So, here's the deal:

(1) Foucault isn't a "postmodernist" and the urban dictionary review sounds like it was written by a 1st year philosophy major. Don't fvck with Foucault.

(2) If there is one central idea about postmodernism, it's that it is a rejection of simplistic narratives, ideas, models and constructs in favor of embracing complexity.

(3) Giving a simple definition of "postmodernism" wouldn't be true to the movement. It's complex, pluralistic, multivariant, and of all things it changes over time.

How is it generally used in context?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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4/26/2013 1:29:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 1:23:04 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/26/2013 1:18:55 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/26/2013 1:06:12 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/26/2013 12:53:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:59:58 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Postmodernism: pseudo-intellectual Trojan Horse of tyrants everywhere in the western world. Began in Arts faculties in various universities under "thinkers" like Derrida, Baudrillard, Foucault and Irigaray, and spread like a cancer into at least the "soft" sciences, if not further afield.

Works insidiously by establishing in the minds of the faithful that there are no ultimate truths in either a moral or a scientific sense, and dressing up bullsh!t in flowery language. Postmodernism pretends to be a guarantor of pluralism (a concept far better served, btw, by rational debate), and is in love with concepts such as the "transgressive" and the "paradigm shift". Unfortunately these matters are brought up in the midst of reams and reams of tendentious twaddle which constitute a dreadful waste of perfectly good trees, and the most notable effect of postmodernist (un)thinking is not the freeing of anyone's mind from conservative tyranny, but the scrapping of the very idea of objective truth. Once this happens, of course, what follows (outside the ivory towers).

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

I sometimes hate you ;)

Do you have a coherent answer?

Postmodernism means a lot of different things to different people. It was an intellectual reaction to the modernist tradition that began in the late 1960s in some circles, but really came to fruition by the end of the 1970s. Postmodernism is significant in that it is a rejection of Modernism.

So, here's the deal:

(1) Foucault isn't a "postmodernist" and the urban dictionary review sounds like it was written by a 1st year philosophy major. Don't fvck with Foucault.

(2) If there is one central idea about postmodernism, it's that it is a rejection of simplistic narratives, ideas, models and constructs in favor of embracing complexity.

(3) Giving a simple definition of "postmodernism" wouldn't be true to the movement. It's complex, pluralistic, multivariant, and of all things it changes over time.

How is it generally used in context?

This answer is going to irritate you, but it really depends on the context.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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4/26/2013 1:35:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The way my professor taught it is that it's a state of mind society obtains after they've "modernized" fully meaning that they have met most of their basic needs and that their capacity has been freed up to focus on other things.

Art
Environmental issues
Social rights

These are all things focused on by a "postmodern" society because now that they've been satisfied economically and health wise etc they can now focus on these types of intellectual things.
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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4/26/2013 2:29:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 1:35:24 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The way my professor taught it is that it's a state of mind society obtains after they've "modernized" fully meaning that they have met most of their basic needs and that their capacity has been freed up to focus on other things.

That's pretty accurate, actually.

Art
Environmental issues
Social rights

These are all things focused on by a "postmodern" society because now that they've been satisfied economically and health wise etc they can now focus on these types of intellectual things.
Sola.Gratia
Posts: 278
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4/26/2013 2:51:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 2:25:43 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I'm sick of being totally clueless every time someone uses this word. I tired to look up the definition but it isn't clear at all.

*analogy*

Have you ever seen a business building with like 1/4 parts of the building with different types of cultural parts to it? Example: one part of the building with something from India, Pakistan, Mexico, China, Hawaii, etc.. Like each part of the building consisting of different cultural figures of it?.. That's what postmodernism is like for ideas.. In other words, its like saying, "use whatever works". So like a building if someone was to "use whatever works", do you think it would be fairly stable? Probably not. So its the same thing with ideas of things. If ideas and what not are just clammed up together with no stability then is it really any good? No.

Hopefully this helps your confusion about the definition for postmodernism. :)
"What is sin? It is the glory of God not honored. Holiness of God not reverenced. Greatness of God not admired. Power of God not praised. Truth of God not sought. Wisdom of God not esteemed. Beauty of God not treasured. Goodness of God not savored. Faithfulness of God not trusted. Commandments of God not obeyed. Justice of God not respected. Wrath of God not feared. Grace of God not cherished. Presence of God not prized. Person of God not loved. That is sin." ~John Piper
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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4/26/2013 2:56:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Post-modern can mean many, many things.

However, I have found an heuristic which basically covers all labels of post-modernism I've encountered from postmodern art, theory, music, film, essays, arcade games, etc.

"Post-modern" refers to the self-conscious identification and violation of the narratives behind a given discourse FOR THE SAKE of identification and violation

Now, I'll try and translate that.

It used to be in art you drew things so as to get people to feel a particular emotion.

However, some artists decided to critique the state of art itself by doing things like making a public toilet art or putting one dot on a canvas and calling it art.

A musician named Felonius Monk (sp) was considered postmodern because he purposefully violated music theory in order to produce notes that sound BAD to an audience while playing.

Films are "post-modern" when they do things like the protagonist starts talking about how because they're in a movie they should be acting one way but they want to act another (be thankful I can't remember the names).

Now, as a counter, a recent film called Seven Psychopaths used a lot of "in-film" (the main character is trying to write a script called "seven psychopaths"). However, I would argue this is NOT necessarily postmodern since it serves to further a characters story as opposed to simply violating a norm.

Post-modern theories are marked by

A. Arguing against the validity of any given narrative/set of rules/explanation
B. Contributing nothing other than creating recognition of A.

Go look up anything from "postmodern feminism" to "postmodern international relations."

The result is you get a bunch of people who "know" that all the institutions the lil' sheeple follow are really just meta-narratives manipulating them.

This is where you get the "holier than thou" sentiment a lot of people who call themselves postmodern feel towards "the rest of us."

As you can imagine, this is a great station for pseudo-intellectuals since they don't actually have to understand what they're talking about as long as they maintain no one has a good answer.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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4/26/2013 2:59:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How to use in proper conversation:

Person A: Hey, look, a camera man is taking hours of footage of himself holding a iphone which he is using to photograph himself taking the footage.

Person B: Why?

Person A: To show how being a viewer still makes you viewed.

Person B: Wow, that's postmodern.

Person A: Huh? What's postmodern?
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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4/26/2013 4:51:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 2:56:16 PM, Wnope wrote:
Post-modern can mean many, many things.

However, I have found an heuristic which basically covers all labels of post-modernism I've encountered from postmodern art, theory, music, film, essays, arcade games, etc.

"Post-modern" refers to the self-conscious identification and violation of the narratives behind a given discourse FOR THE SAKE of identification and violation

Now, I'll try and translate that.

It used to be in art you drew things so as to get people to feel a particular emotion.

However, some artists decided to critique the state of art itself by doing things like making a public toilet art or putting one dot on a canvas and calling it art.

A musician named Felonius Monk (sp) was considered postmodern because he purposefully violated music theory in order to produce notes that sound BAD to an audience while playing.

Films are "post-modern" when they do things like the protagonist starts talking about how because they're in a movie they should be acting one way but they want to act another (be thankful I can't remember the names).

Now, as a counter, a recent film called Seven Psychopaths used a lot of "in-film" (the main character is trying to write a script called "seven psychopaths"). However, I would argue this is NOT necessarily postmodern since it serves to further a characters story as opposed to simply violating a norm.

Post-modern theories are marked by

A. Arguing against the validity of any given narrative/set of rules/explanation
B. Contributing nothing other than creating recognition of A.

Go look up anything from "postmodern feminism" to "postmodern international relations."

The result is you get a bunch of people who "know" that all the institutions the lil' sheeple follow are really just meta-narratives manipulating them.

This is where you get the "holier than thou" sentiment a lot of people who call themselves postmodern feel towards "the rest of us."

As you can imagine, this is a great station for pseudo-intellectuals since they don't actually have to understand what they're talking about as long as they maintain no one has a good answer.

This is my entire philosophy of life. I mean, I do think the answers are out there, but I do see a lot of absurdity and arbitrariness in life. Thanks!
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Sidewalker
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4/26/2013 5:13:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 2:25:43 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I'm sick of being totally clueless every time someone uses this word. I tired to look up the definition but it isn't clear at all.

I think it's an intellectual sounding way of calling BS on modernism, a way of categorizing things like everything is relative, objectivity isn't objective, certainty is uncertain, experience is more important than principles, there's no truth with a capital T, blah blah blah...but saying it with a scholarly sounding vocabulary.

In general it's skepticism about modernity.

By the way, a great book is Huston Smith's "Beyond the Postmodern Mind", I guess that would be postpostmodern :)
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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4/26/2013 10:43:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 2:56:16 PM, Wnope wrote:

A musician named Felonius Monk (sp) was considered postmodern because he purposefully violated music theory in order to produce notes that sound BAD to an audience while playing.

That was Thelonius Mink, Felonius Monk is this guy, he's dissonant too, but without the piano...telling Obama to stop being a d-ckhead
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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4/26/2013 11:18:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 2:25:43 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I'm sick of being totally clueless every time someone uses this word. I tired to look up the definition but it isn't clear at all.

There are two meanings and two senses... first, art and literature can be considered post modern, and then there's philosophy. Under philosophy post-modernism is a theory of truth (along with pragmatism, and coherence theories... until post-modernism came about the main theory of truth has always been the correspondence theory of truth).

Post-modernism as a philosophical theory of truth can be meant in a historical ideology
sense, which is a reaction to modernity; that period of European thought out of the Renaissance and flourished in Enlightenment with thinkers like Descartes, Locke, Berkeley, Hume, Leibniz, Kant, etc.

But now as a philosophical ideology, (which is what I think you mean), post-modernism (PM) is a reinterpretation of what knowledge is and what counts as knowledge. It is a form of cultural relativism about reality, truth, reason, value, linguistic meaning, the self, etc... It involved thinkers like - Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, Derrida, Kuhn, Foucault, Heidegger, Lyotard, etc....

PM rejects Metaphysical Realism, that commitment to the existence of a theory/language-independent reality, the idea that there"s one way the world actually is, and that the laws of logic apply to reality...

To PM: reality is just a social construction. Postmodernism involves an anti-realist rejection of realist commitments. What"s real for one linguistic group is unreal for another and so the laws of logic are a Western construction; not universally valid laws of reality itself.

neo-Kantian Postmodernism posits that the external reality is a thing-in-itself. We"ve no way to get to reality itself so reality itself is therefore a useless notion and can be ignored for practical purposes.

PM's rejection of the Correspondence Theory is a rejection of Dichotomous Thinking. If all thought is historically and socially conditioned, then there are no real dichotomies. Dividing a range of phenomena into two groups and claiming one is better over the other is dichotomy.

eg, (real/unreal, true/false, rational/irrational, right/wrong, virtue/vice, good/bad, beautiful/ugly)

But assertions employing these terms are relative to a widely diverse range of groups. These groups are in turn are constituted by shared language and narrative culture. Thus there"s just as many ways of dividing these these pairs as there are groups that divide them.

For rationality, PM's rejection of universal, transcultural standards means there's no predefined rationality, and PM does this on the basis of the impossibility of objectivism. No one approaches life in a fully unbiased way since there"s no neutral viewpoint.

For knowledge, PM just views it as a construction expressing social structures of certain associations. What"s deemed appropriate according to professional certification practices of associations = knowledge.

PM's rejection of foundationalist theories of epistemic justification is itself a rejection of simply "seeing" that ....

For on Foundationalism there's a particular quest/desire for epistemic certainty that provides the intellectual impetus for doing philosophy, it"s the theory"s core, this so called Cartesian Anxiety.

PM rejects this Cartesian Anxiety. There"s no certainty and so a quest for it is an impossible one. The quest is also misguided since folks don"t need certitude to live their lives well. There are such things as Christian Postmodernists who view the Cartesian quest is anti-biblical WRT- Faith. Sinfulness in our lives had profound effects on our intellectual and sensory faculties, etc. So there's an impossibility of grasping an infinite God, and so forth.

PM accepts nominalism - rather than terms like redness representing universals, such terms are are only names for groups of things. If something is universal - than it's an entity that can be in more than one place at a time / in the same place at different, interrupted time intervals.

eg, redness, justice, being even, humanness

Since Postmodernists are nominalists, nothing is repeatable or has identity over time or can be present at one time/place and be present at another time/place, etc.

Postmodernists believe in Anti Essentialism. Essentialism is the belief that things have essential and accidental properties; where essential properties are those things such that if an entity loses them, that entity ceases to exist. It answers the most fundamental question, what sort of thing is this?

eg, evenness is essential to 2, humanness is essential to Socrates, omni-benevolence is essential to God, being H20 is essential to water, sexual union between a man & woman is essential to marriage ;-)

Accidental properties are those such that a thing can lose it and still exist: eg, being 5" tall is accidental to Socrates

For Postmodernists, this division is relative to our interests, classificatory purposes, it"s a social construct...

There's more, such as there being no meta-narratives only local ones, thoughts on relativistic literature reading, etc. Hope this helps ya
Apeiron
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4/26/2013 11:20:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 4:51:55 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/26/2013 2:56:16 PM, Wnope wrote:
Post-modern can mean many, many things.

However, I have found an heuristic which basically covers all labels of post-modernism I've encountered from postmodern art, theory, music, film, essays, arcade games, etc.

"Post-modern" refers to the self-conscious identification and violation of the narratives behind a given discourse FOR THE SAKE of identification and violation

Now, I'll try and translate that.

It used to be in art you drew things so as to get people to feel a particular emotion.

However, some artists decided to critique the state of art itself by doing things like making a public toilet art or putting one dot on a canvas and calling it art.

A musician named Felonius Monk (sp) was considered postmodern because he purposefully violated music theory in order to produce notes that sound BAD to an audience while playing.

Films are "post-modern" when they do things like the protagonist starts talking about how because they're in a movie they should be acting one way but they want to act another (be thankful I can't remember the names).

Now, as a counter, a recent film called Seven Psychopaths used a lot of "in-film" (the main character is trying to write a script called "seven psychopaths"). However, I would argue this is NOT necessarily postmodern since it serves to further a characters story as opposed to simply violating a norm.

Post-modern theories are marked by

A. Arguing against the validity of any given narrative/set of rules/explanation
B. Contributing nothing other than creating recognition of A.

Go look up anything from "postmodern feminism" to "postmodern international relations."

The result is you get a bunch of people who "know" that all the institutions the lil' sheeple follow are really just meta-narratives manipulating them.

This is where you get the "holier than thou" sentiment a lot of people who call themselves postmodern feel towards "the rest of us."

As you can imagine, this is a great station for pseudo-intellectuals since they don't actually have to understand what they're talking about as long as they maintain no one has a good answer.

This is my entire philosophy of life. I mean, I do think the answers are out there, but I do see a lot of absurdity and arbitrariness in life. Thanks!

We should debate postmodernism some day... it's retarded.
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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4/26/2013 11:35:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 11:20:53 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:51:55 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/26/2013 2:56:16 PM, Wnope wrote:
Post-modern can mean many, many things.

However, I have found an heuristic which basically covers all labels of post-modernism I've encountered from postmodern art, theory, music, film, essays, arcade games, etc.

"Post-modern" refers to the self-conscious identification and violation of the narratives behind a given discourse FOR THE SAKE of identification and violation

Now, I'll try and translate that.

It used to be in art you drew things so as to get people to feel a particular emotion.

However, some artists decided to critique the state of art itself by doing things like making a public toilet art or putting one dot on a canvas and calling it art.

A musician named Felonius Monk (sp) was considered postmodern because he purposefully violated music theory in order to produce notes that sound BAD to an audience while playing.

Films are "post-modern" when they do things like the protagonist starts talking about how because they're in a movie they should be acting one way but they want to act another (be thankful I can't remember the names).

Now, as a counter, a recent film called Seven Psychopaths used a lot of "in-film" (the main character is trying to write a script called "seven psychopaths"). However, I would argue this is NOT necessarily postmodern since it serves to further a characters story as opposed to simply violating a norm.

Post-modern theories are marked by

A. Arguing against the validity of any given narrative/set of rules/explanation
B. Contributing nothing other than creating recognition of A.

Go look up anything from "postmodern feminism" to "postmodern international relations."

The result is you get a bunch of people who "know" that all the institutions the lil' sheeple follow are really just meta-narratives manipulating them.

This is where you get the "holier than thou" sentiment a lot of people who call themselves postmodern feel towards "the rest of us."

As you can imagine, this is a great station for pseudo-intellectuals since they don't actually have to understand what they're talking about as long as they maintain no one has a good answer.

This is my entire philosophy of life. I mean, I do think the answers are out there, but I do see a lot of absurdity and arbitrariness in life. Thanks!

We should debate postmodernism some day... it's retarded.

Postmodernism is complex, it is hard, and it functions as the intellectual translation of cognitive dissonance into normative truth. It spits in the face of absolutist pretentious, of monolithic narrative or vague and ambiguous generalizations. It is in that manor the means to intellectual vindication of sociocultural complexity. It is imminently necessary, and yet characterized as something over and above most -and it is, but it is more than that. Postmodernism forces us to justify ourselves to ourselves, and that is daunting to most -even liberal elitists like me. But it has value, and that value should not be ignored because of weak, shallow rejections of postmodernism that stem from misunderstandings of what it means to think/reason in a postmodern way.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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4/27/2013 5:40:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 11:35:39 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/26/2013 11:20:53 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:51:55 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 4/26/2013 2:56:16 PM, Wnope wrote:
Post-modern can mean many, many things.

However, I have found an heuristic which basically covers all labels of post-modernism I've encountered from postmodern art, theory, music, film, essays, arcade games, etc.

"Post-modern" refers to the self-conscious identification and violation of the narratives behind a given discourse FOR THE SAKE of identification and violation

Now, I'll try and translate that.

It used to be in art you drew things so as to get people to feel a particular emotion.

However, some artists decided to critique the state of art itself by doing things like making a public toilet art or putting one dot on a canvas and calling it art.

A musician named Felonius Monk (sp) was considered postmodern because he purposefully violated music theory in order to produce notes that sound BAD to an audience while playing.

Films are "post-modern" when they do things like the protagonist starts talking about how because they're in a movie they should be acting one way but they want to act another (be thankful I can't remember the names).

Now, as a counter, a recent film called Seven Psychopaths used a lot of "in-film" (the main character is trying to write a script called "seven psychopaths"). However, I would argue this is NOT necessarily postmodern since it serves to further a characters story as opposed to simply violating a norm.

Post-modern theories are marked by

A. Arguing against the validity of any given narrative/set of rules/explanation
B. Contributing nothing other than creating recognition of A.

Go look up anything from "postmodern feminism" to "postmodern international relations."

The result is you get a bunch of people who "know" that all the institutions the lil' sheeple follow are really just meta-narratives manipulating them.

This is where you get the "holier than thou" sentiment a lot of people who call themselves postmodern feel towards "the rest of us."

As you can imagine, this is a great station for pseudo-intellectuals since they don't actually have to understand what they're talking about as long as they maintain no one has a good answer.

This is my entire philosophy of life. I mean, I do think the answers are out there, but I do see a lot of absurdity and arbitrariness in life. Thanks!

We should debate postmodernism some day... it's retarded.

Postmodernism is complex, it is hard, and it functions as the intellectual translation of cognitive dissonance into normative truth. It spits in the face of absolutist pretentious, of monolithic narrative or vague and ambiguous generalizations. It is in that manor the means to intellectual vindication of sociocultural complexity. It is imminently necessary, and yet characterized as something over and above most -and it is, but it is more than that. Postmodernism forces us to justify ourselves to ourselves, and that is daunting to most -even liberal elitists like me. But it has value, and that value should not be ignored because of weak, shallow rejections of postmodernism that stem from misunderstandings of what it means to think/reason in a postmodern way.

Yea- justify ourselves to ourselves.. we knew all that BEFORE post-modernists came about, thanks.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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4/27/2013 6:03:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 10:43:02 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/26/2013 2:56:16 PM, Wnope wrote:

A musician named Felonius Monk (sp) was considered postmodern because he purposefully violated music theory in order to produce notes that sound BAD to an audience while playing.

That was Thelonius Monk, Felonius Monk is this guy, he's dissonant too, but without the piano...telling Obama to stop being a d-ckhead

fixed
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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4/27/2013 11:43:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The article is more about postmodernism and its relationship to feminism but it begins with a quick characterization of postmodern theses. (http://www.marxists.org...)

In her recent book, Thinking Fragments: Psychoanalysis, Feminism and Postmodernism in the Contemporary West, Jane Flax characterizes the postmodern position as subscription to the theses of the death of Man, of History and of Metaphysics.

" The Death of Man. "Postmodernists wish to destroy," she writes," all essentialist conceptions of human being or nature.... In fact Man is a social, historical, or linguistic artifact, not a noumenal or transcendental Being.... Man is forever caught in the web of fictive meaning, in chains of signification, in which the subject is merely another position in language."

" The Death of History. "The idea that History exists for or is his Being is more than just another precondition and justification for the fiction of Man. This idea also supports and underlies the concept of Progress, which is itself such an important part of Man"s story.... Such an idea of Man and History privileges and presupposes the value of units", homogeneity, totality, closure, and identity."

" The Death of Metaphysics. According to postmodernists, "Western metaphysics has been under the spell of the "metaphysics of presence" at least since Plato.... For postmodernists this quest for the Real conceals most Western philosophers" desire, which is to master the world once and for all by enclosing it within an illusory, but absolute system they, believe represents or corresponds to a unitary Being beyond history, particularity and change.... just as the Real is the ground of Truth, so too philosophy, as the privileged representative of the Real and interrogator of truth claims must play a "foundational" role in all "positive knowledge"."


I may just have a simplistic outlook but I think Lyotard's definition as skepticism towards any and all grand narratives is basically all you need to know to get started.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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4/27/2013 8:15:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/27/2013 7:39:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Postmodernism is after modernism.

Duh.

More specifically, it is defined against modernism. Yes.