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Pessimism

toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/28/2013 2:26:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
We're all worthless ants. We are dirty animals. We'll die and it'll mean nothing. We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance. You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans. The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

We are all trapped in prisons, forever alone in the deepest existential way. We torture ourselves and others, socially, by competing and striving for that one thing that will make us happy, whose eternal absence distresses us greatly, all while we drive the weak into the dirt.

Realizing this offers no salvation, no catharsis. No one can escape the suffering, save through death, which is the ultimate horror. The very existence of death, the thought of which we all run around in circles to avoid, is the greatest torture of all.

The best thing we could have is to already be dead, in that it could never get worse, for all we know - and that says a lot about the true terror of the universe.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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4/28/2013 11:21:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Having a bad day?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/28/2013 3:33:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:21:09 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
Having a bad day?

No, not at all. This doesn't reflect my mood. But what if it's true? D:

This seems to be one of those things that you can make true for yourself.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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4/28/2013 8:01:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 3:33:36 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:21:09 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
Having a bad day?

No, not at all. This doesn't reflect my mood.

It reflects a mood, and you wrote it.

But what if it's true? D:

It isn't true for me, if it's true for you then I'd say take steps to make it untrue.

This seems to be one of those things that you can make true for yourself.

Why would anyone want to make that true?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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4/28/2013 10:23:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 2:26:53 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
We're all worthless ants. We are dirty animals. We'll die and it'll mean nothing. We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance. You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans. The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

We are all trapped in prisons, forever alone in the deepest existential way. We torture ourselves and others, socially, by competing and striving for that one thing that will make us happy, whose eternal absence distresses us greatly, all while we drive the weak into the dirt.

Realizing this offers no salvation, no catharsis. No one can escape the suffering, save through death, which is the ultimate horror. The very existence of death, the thought of which we all run around in circles to avoid, is the greatest torture of all.

The best thing we could have is to already be dead, in that it could never get worse, for all we know - and that says a lot about the true terror of the universe.

Even if most or all of this is true, which I think it is, it shouldn't stop you from having fun.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/29/2013 12:22:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 8:01:12 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/28/2013 3:33:36 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:21:09 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
Having a bad day?

No, not at all. This doesn't reflect my mood.

It reflects a mood, and you wrote it.

But what if it's true? D:

It isn't true for me, if it's true for you then I'd say take steps to make it untrue.

This seems to be one of those things that you can make true for yourself.

Why would anyone want to make that true?

Lol. Okay, doctor Phil.

No one would want to make it true. Does anyone who suffers from delusions want to do so? I'm interested in this kind of thing. I myself have suffered from delusions, particularly delusions of hell. I find it interesting how something can appear to be obviously true at one time and appear obviously untrue at another. Did I feel this way when I wrote this? No, but I have felt this way before.

Anyway, I don't want to talk about my feelings here. I wanted to talk about the idea.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/29/2013 12:26:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 10:23:23 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:26:53 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
We're all worthless ants. We are dirty animals. We'll die and it'll mean nothing. We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance. You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans. The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

We are all trapped in prisons, forever alone in the deepest existential way. We torture ourselves and others, socially, by competing and striving for that one thing that will make us happy, whose eternal absence distresses us greatly, all while we drive the weak into the dirt.

Realizing this offers no salvation, no catharsis. No one can escape the suffering, save through death, which is the ultimate horror. The very existence of death, the thought of which we all run around in circles to avoid, is the greatest torture of all.

The best thing we could have is to already be dead, in that it could never get worse, for all we know - and that says a lot about the true terror of the universe.

Even if most or all of this is true, which I think it is, it shouldn't stop you from having fun.

I was wondering about that. If this stuff is true, would it be better to "face facts", or to live in denial for the sake of having fun, or experiencing what happiness you can?

Say hypothetically God is real, and he reveals himself to us - but it turns out He is evil, and only created us to torture us. How jarring would this information be? How could anyone cope?
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/29/2013 12:27:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 12:26:25 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/28/2013 10:23:23 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:26:53 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
We're all worthless ants. We are dirty animals. We'll die and it'll mean nothing. We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance. You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans. The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

We are all trapped in prisons, forever alone in the deepest existential way. We torture ourselves and others, socially, by competing and striving for that one thing that will make us happy, whose eternal absence distresses us greatly, all while we drive the weak into the dirt.

Realizing this offers no salvation, no catharsis. No one can escape the suffering, save through death, which is the ultimate horror. The very existence of death, the thought of which we all run around in circles to avoid, is the greatest torture of all.

The best thing we could have is to already be dead, in that it could never get worse, for all we know - and that says a lot about the true terror of the universe.

Even if most or all of this is true, which I think it is, it shouldn't stop you from having fun.

I was wondering about that. If this stuff is true, would it be better to "face facts", or to live in denial for the sake of having fun, or experiencing what happiness you can?

Say hypothetically God is real, and he reveals himself to us - but it turns out He is evil, and only created us to torture us. How jarring would this information be? How could anyone cope?

I don't see why you can't simultaneously face facts and have fun. Nothing in our biology prohibits us from doing so. *shrug*
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/29/2013 12:32:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 12:27:52 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:26:25 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/28/2013 10:23:23 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:26:53 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
We're all worthless ants. We are dirty animals. We'll die and it'll mean nothing. We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance. You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans. The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

We are all trapped in prisons, forever alone in the deepest existential way. We torture ourselves and others, socially, by competing and striving for that one thing that will make us happy, whose eternal absence distresses us greatly, all while we drive the weak into the dirt.

Realizing this offers no salvation, no catharsis. No one can escape the suffering, save through death, which is the ultimate horror. The very existence of death, the thought of which we all run around in circles to avoid, is the greatest torture of all.

The best thing we could have is to already be dead, in that it could never get worse, for all we know - and that says a lot about the true terror of the universe.

Even if most or all of this is true, which I think it is, it shouldn't stop you from having fun.

I was wondering about that. If this stuff is true, would it be better to "face facts", or to live in denial for the sake of having fun, or experiencing what happiness you can?

Say hypothetically God is real, and he reveals himself to us - but it turns out He is evil, and only created us to torture us. How jarring would this information be? How could anyone cope?

I don't see why you can't simultaneously face facts and have fun. Nothing in our biology prohibits us from doing so. *shrug*

If something truly terrible about our existence were true, like if God were evil and created us to torture us, what exactly would be your method for both facing facts and having fun?
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/29/2013 12:36:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 12:32:04 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:27:52 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:26:25 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
I was wondering about that. If this stuff is true, would it be better to "face facts", or to live in denial for the sake of having fun, or experiencing what happiness you can?

Say hypothetically God is real, and he reveals himself to us - but it turns out He is evil, and only created us to torture us. How jarring would this information be? How could anyone cope?

I don't see why you can't simultaneously face facts and have fun. Nothing in our biology prohibits us from doing so. *shrug*

If something truly terrible about our existence were true, like if God were evil and created us to torture us, what exactly would be your method for both facing facts and having fun?

I would continue to be a human being and thus unusually good at coping with horrible things. Also, if you're damned if you do and damned if you don't- you say f*ck all and just do what you want.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/29/2013 12:46:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 2:26:53 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
We're all worthless ants.

Says who? Why?

We are dirty animals.

I'm pretty clean. What do you mean?

We'll die and it'll mean nothing.

Depending on who you are and what you've done, it could mean several different things to different people.

We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance.

Says who? I don't understand. Are you trying to make an argument or is this just a stream of consciousness type thing?

You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

I've been given no reason to think that this is in fact so. o.o But... okay. I guess we can think about that.


What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans.

Um, no they don't? I can easily think of ways in which they might be prone to uncomfortable feelings. What if your tongue was made to burn every time you drank water? What if the act of opening your eyes to look around always caused searing pain and you just sort of had to get used to it if you wanted sight? What if what you said just seems blatantly false?

The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

How are you making comparisons if you've done away with value?

We are all trapped in prisons, forever alone in the deepest existential way. We torture ourselves and others, socially, by competing and striving for that one thing that will make us happy, whose eternal absence distresses us greatly, all while we drive the weak into the dirt.

Yeah, sometimes people do bad things. What's your point? I can't do this anymore.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/29/2013 12:47:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sorry, a lot of people are having a different type of reaction, so maybe this was just a whoooooosh moment for me and I missed the point. =(
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/29/2013 12:49:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 12:47:18 AM, Rusty wrote:
Sorry, a lot of people are having a different type of reaction, so maybe this was just a whoooooosh moment for me and I missed the point. =(

I'm ignoring the exaggerated pessimism about the evil in the world and going straight for the nihilism... So maybe that's why. I don't know.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/29/2013 1:36:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 12:46:24 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:26:53 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
We're all worthless ants.

Says who? Why?

We are insignificant in that our lives do nothing to affect the general goings-on of the universe. If Earth blew up, we would be gone and - so what? Hence, we are worthless in general. Of course, I recognize that we all have varying worth to different people.

We are dirty animals.

I'm pretty clean. What do you mean?

Are you kidding? You're absolutely covered in dead skin, bacteria, mites, hair and dirt, and you turn things into feces daily! Do you have any idea how you must smell on the inside?

We'll die and it'll mean nothing.

Depending on who you are and what you've done, it could mean several different things to different people.

But it all means nothing as a whole, and when you're dead it'll mean nothing to you as well.

We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance.

Says who? I don't understand. Are you trying to make an argument or is this just a stream of consciousness type thing?

What do you mean "say's who?" Says me. Does it matter who says it? If the president said it, would it somehow sit better with you?

You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

I've been given no reason to think that this is in fact so. o.o But... okay. I guess we can think about that.

What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans.

Um, no they don't? I can easily think of ways in which they might be prone to uncomfortable feelings. What if your tongue was made to burn every time you drank water? What if the act of opening your eyes to look around always caused searing pain and you just sort of had to get used to it if you wanted sight? What if what you said just seems blatantly false?

Then you've probably had a happy life. What if you were being subtly offensive on purpose?

Then you'd be an arse.

If we felt searing pain by looking around, we would get used to it, to the point where we were no longer bothered by searing pain. Then you won't even care when you accidentally put your hand on the stove. It's just run-of-the-mill searing pain.

This is inconsequential, anyway. I didn't say things were designed that way, I said it's as if they were. What are the odds of things turning out exactly as you've described? I mean, your response is basically, "nope, we're not burning for eternity, so this isn't like hell at all." Really?

The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

How are you making comparisons if you've done away with value?

When did I do away with value?

We are all trapped in prisons, forever alone in the deepest existential way. We torture ourselves and others, socially, by competing and striving for that one thing that will make us happy, whose eternal absence distresses us greatly, all while we drive the weak into the dirt.

Yeah, sometimes people do bad things. What's your point? I can't do this anymore.

Neither can I.... Neither can I.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/29/2013 1:46:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 12:49:05 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:47:18 AM, Rusty wrote:
Sorry, a lot of people are having a different type of reaction, so maybe this was just a whoooooosh moment for me and I missed the point. =(

I'm ignoring the exaggerated pessimism about the evil in the world and going straight for the nihilism... So maybe that's why. I don't know.

I guess what I was going for was, "Imagine things are like this, and show me you, and what you would think if they were."

People often worry that everything will go wrong. I'm just exploring what it'd be like if it does, in every possible aspect, such that there is no silver lining, and I'm tying it as close to reality as I can. I think of it an an antithesis for anyone who says that life is beautiful and everything is grand.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/29/2013 1:50:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
What's interesting is if I posted something that addressed all of the same elements, but in an optimistic way, I suspect people would have largely agreed, and showed almost no resistance to it.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/29/2013 1:52:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 1:50:05 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
What's interesting is if I posted something that addressed all of the same elements, but in an optimistic way, I suspect people would have largely agreed, and showed almost no resistance to it.

Just wait until this thread gets buried a bit and forgotten and then do it ;)
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/29/2013 2:25:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 1:36:10 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:46:24 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:26:53 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
We're all worthless ants.

Says who? Why?

We are insignificant in that our lives do nothing to affect the general goings-on of the universe. If Earth blew up, we would be gone and - so what? Hence, we are worthless in general. Of course, I recognize that we all have varying worth to different people.

Would you mind providing an example of what it would mean to affect the general goings-on of the universe? Is there any reason to rule out that such a thing might be possible at some point in the future, given exponential increases in science and technology? If that would indeed be possible, then might we say that our current actions aren't necessarily worthless?


We are dirty animals.

I'm pretty clean. What do you mean?

Are you kidding? You're absolutely covered in dead skin, bacteria, mites, hair and dirt, and you turn things into feces daily! Do you have any idea how you must smell on the inside?

Really?


We'll die and it'll mean nothing.

Depending on who you are and what you've done, it could mean several different things to different people.

But it all means nothing as a whole, and when you're dead it'll mean nothing to you as well.

When you say 'as a whole,' what do you mean?


We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance.

Says who? I don't understand. Are you trying to make an argument or is this just a stream of consciousness type thing?

What do you mean "say's who?" Says me. Does it matter who says it? If the president said it, would it somehow sit better with you?

You sure have a knack for interpreting common phrases in ways that seem intellectually dishonest. First "I'm clean" as referring to the presence of unavoidable microscopic organisms on my body as opposed to what most people mean when they say they're clean, and now, instead of drawing attention to the assertive instead of argumentative nature of these comments, you think 'says who' was meant to indicate I take issue with your stating of these things, in particular.


You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

I've been given no reason to think that this is in fact so. o.o But... okay. I guess we can think about that.

What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans.

Um, no they don't? I can easily think of ways in which they might be prone to uncomfortable feelings. What if your tongue was made to burn every time you drank water? What if the act of opening your eyes to look around always caused searing pain and you just sort of had to get used to it if you wanted sight? What if what you said just seems blatantly false?

Then you've probably had a happy life.

Because I possess the average amount of intelligence required to imagine just a few of the insanely numerous ways in which our senses might have been much less 'friendly' to us than they currently are?

What if you were being subtly offensive on purpose? Then you'd be an arse.

Haha.


If we felt searing pain by looking around, we would get used to it, to the point where we were no longer bothered by searing pain. Then you won't even care when you accidentally put your hand on the stove. It's just run-of-the-mill searing pain.

Then, when you get used to it, suppose something triggers in your brain to flush out whatever chemical setup has been established to allow such an indifference. At any rate, however, I wouldn't think we needed to spend a significant amount of time on examples, since it seems so obvious that we could be worse off in this aspect. Are you seriously denying that there are many, many ways in which our sense could be thought to be worse when it comes to this?


This is inconsequential, anyway. I didn't say things were designed that way, I said it's as if they were.

How does that help your case exactly? Is saying 'it's as if' a license for extreme exaggeration? I'm at a fault for thinking of counterexamples because you used 'as if,' and thus you're not really saying what you appeared to be saying? That can't be right, so I'll await clarification.

What are the odds of things turning out exactly as you've described? I mean, your response is basically, "nope, we're not burning for eternity, so this isn't like hell at all." Really?

I don't know the odds, but that doesn't hurt my case at all. In fact, it actually hurts yours in light of the above. If you're saying that it's as if they were DESIGNED to maximize the total suffering of humans, and I can clearly think of ways in which I could hypothetically have made the senses much, much, much worse, then you're clearly wrong that the current state of our senses makes it seems anything like it was designed to maximize total suffering.


The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

How are you making comparisons if you've done away with value?

When did I do away with value?

I guess that's more of what I got from the general message (apparently someone else did as well) more than a direct quote from you, so I'll assume I was mistaken and withdraw that for now.


We are all trapped in prisons, forever alone in the deepest existential way. We torture ourselves and others, socially, by competing and striving for that one thing that will make us happy, whose eternal absence distresses us greatly, all while we drive the weak into the dirt.

Yeah, sometimes people do bad things. What's your point? I can't do this anymore.

Neither can I.... Neither can I.
toolpot462
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4/29/2013 3:33:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 2:25:43 AM, Rusty wrote:

We are insignificant in that our lives do nothing to affect the general goings-on of the universe. If Earth blew up, we would be gone and - so what? Hence, we are worthless in general. Of course, I recognize that we all have varying worth to different people.

Would you mind providing an example of what it would mean to affect the general goings-on of the universe? Is there any reason to rule out that such a thing might be possible at some point in the future, given exponential increases in science and technology? If that would indeed be possible, then might we say that our current actions aren't necessarily worthless?

Okay: no matter what we do, our existence will eventually fade, no matter how far out and advanced we get. The human race cannot last eternally, since eternity demands that everything that is possible to happen does happen. So, the human race might explore every possible outcome it can, but will inevitably reach the outcome of extinction. The deeper point is that it really makes no difference whether the human race proliferates or not.


We are dirty animals.

I'm pretty clean. What do you mean?

Are you kidding? You're absolutely covered in dead skin, bacteria, mites, hair and dirt, and you turn things into feces daily! Do you have any idea how you must smell on the inside?

Really?

The point is, from the right perspective, you are filthy. This is all about perspective - this can all be true subjectively.

We'll die and it'll mean nothing.

Depending on who you are and what you've done, it could mean several different things to different people.

But it all means nothing as a whole, and when you're dead it'll mean nothing to you as well.

When you say 'as a whole,' what do you mean?

We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance.

Says who? I don't understand. Are you trying to make an argument or is this just a stream of consciousness type thing?

What do you mean "say's who?" Says me. Does it matter who says it? If the president said it, would it somehow sit better with you?

You sure have a knack for interpreting common phrases in ways that seem intellectually dishonest. First "I'm clean" as referring to the presence of unavoidable microscopic organisms on my body as opposed to what most people mean when they say they're clean, and now, instead of drawing attention to the assertive instead of argumentative nature of these comments, you think 'says who' was meant to indicate I take issue with your stating of these things, in particular.

Did you think I meant that everyone is dirty in the typical sense? And I responded that way because "say's who?" is not a decent response. I guess I could have taken it as, "that doesn't seem necessarily true", but the general tone seems condescending to me.

You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

I've been given no reason to think that this is in fact so. o.o But... okay. I guess we can think about that.

What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans.

Um, no they don't? I can easily think of ways in which they might be prone to uncomfortable feelings. What if your tongue was made to burn every time you drank water? What if the act of opening your eyes to look around always caused searing pain and you just sort of had to get used to it if you wanted sight? What if what you said just seems blatantly false?

Then you've probably had a happy life.

Because I possess the average amount of intelligence required to imagine just a few of the insanely numerous ways in which our senses might have been much less 'friendly' to us than they currently are?

What if you were being subtly offensive on purpose? Then you'd be an arse.

Haha.


If we felt searing pain by looking around, we would get used to it, to the point where we were no longer bothered by searing pain. Then you won't even care when you accidentally put your hand on the stove. It's just run-of-the-mill searing pain.

Then, when you get used to it, suppose something triggers in your brain to flush out whatever chemical setup has been established to allow such an indifference. At any rate, however, I wouldn't think we needed to spend a significant amount of time on examples, since it seems so obvious that we could be worse off in this aspect. Are you seriously denying that there are many, many ways in which our sense could be thought to be worse when it comes to this?

This is inconsequential, anyway. I didn't say things were designed that way, I said it's as if they were.

How does that help your case exactly? Is saying 'it's as if' a license for extreme exaggeration? I'm at a fault for thinking of counterexamples because you used 'as if,' and thus you're not really saying what you appeared to be saying? That can't be right, so I'll await clarification.

Yes, "it's as if" is usually followed by an exaggeration. It's as if the whole world is against me. It was as if my head exploded. He reacted as if he had seen a ghost. I don't know how arguing against the exaggeration I used shows that things are not in fact very bleak as my point would suggest.

What are the odds of things turning out exactly as you've described? I mean, your response is basically, "nope, we're not burning for eternity, so this isn't like hell at all." Really?

I don't know the odds, but that doesn't hurt my case at all. In fact, it actually hurts yours in light of the above. If you're saying that it's as if they were DESIGNED to maximize the total suffering of humans, and I can clearly think of ways in which I could hypothetically have made the senses much, much, much worse, then you're clearly wrong that the current state of our senses makes it seems anything like it was designed to maximize total suffering.

Oh my God, you're saying things weren't actually designed that way?! This comes as a total shock to me!

Anyway, it can very well seem to be that way if you let it. I've looked around me and thought, "this is amazing!", and have had happy thoughts and such about my life. But I've also looked around and thought, "I've just realized that this is arbitrary, to the point where it torments me. What is this? Why am I even doing this? Why do I feel trapped here?"

The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

How are you making comparisons if you've done away with value?

When did I do away with value?

I guess that's more of what I got from the general message (apparently someone else did as well) more than a direct quote from you, so I'll assume I was mistaken and withd
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
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4/29/2013 5:56:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 1:46:57 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:49:05 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:47:18 AM, Rusty wrote:
Sorry, a lot of people are having a different type of reaction, so maybe this was just a whoooooosh moment for me and I missed the point. =(

I'm ignoring the exaggerated pessimism about the evil in the world and going straight for the nihilism... So maybe that's why. I don't know.

I guess what I was going for was, "Imagine things are like this, and show me you, and what you would think if they were."

Lol. Okay, doctor Phil.

People often worry that everything will go wrong. I'm just exploring what it'd be like if it does, in every possible aspect, such that there is no silver lining, and I'm tying it as close to reality as I can.

You're not even in the same ballpark as reality.

I think of it an an antithesis for anyone who says that life is beautiful and everything is grand.

I'm a big Louis Armstrong fan, so I'm going with "and I think to myself, what a wonderful world"
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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4/29/2013 3:14:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 1:36:10 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:46:24 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 4/28/2013 2:26:53 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
We're all worthless ants.

Says who? Why?

We are insignificant in that our lives do nothing to affect the general goings-on of the universe. If Earth blew up, we would be gone and - so what? Hence, we are worthless in general. Of course, I recognize that we all have varying worth to different people.

I'd say diversity in existence has worth, and we add to that.


We are dirty animals.

I'm pretty clean. What do you mean?

Are you kidding? You're absolutely covered in dead skin, bacteria, mites, hair and dirt, and you turn things into feces daily! Do you have any idea how you must smell on the inside?

Well smell is subjective, but we function better than average.


We'll die and it'll mean nothing.

Depending on who you are and what you've done, it could mean several different things to different people.

But it all means nothing as a whole, and when you're dead it'll mean nothing to you as well.

But you'd have always affected existence.


We are an inevitable product of nature, and nothing we accomplish in our lives, or even as a species, will ever mean anything or be of any real importance.

Says who? I don't understand. Are you trying to make an argument or is this just a stream of consciousness type thing?

What do you mean "say's who?" Says me. Does it matter who says it? If the president said it, would it somehow sit better with you?

Depends on what importance means.


You might say, "if this is so, what's the use in dwelling on it and letting it bother you?"

I've been given no reason to think that this is in fact so. o.o But... okay. I guess we can think about that.

What's the use? There is no use to anything. There is no better way to spend your time. You might as well crawl into a hole and die. We'll all become worm food and turn to dust and feces, which isn't that far off from what we are now. Any kind of self-righteous response to this saying that this is not so is just a manifestation of pure denial; a defense mechanism we've used to disguise the horrific truth that we are as pimples, worthless and disgusting.

If there exists a hell, this is it. All of your senses and experiences exist almost as if they were designed to maximize the total suffering of humans.

Um, no they don't? I can easily think of ways in which they might be prone to uncomfortable feelings. What if your tongue was made to burn every time you drank water? What if the act of opening your eyes to look around always caused searing pain and you just sort of had to get used to it if you wanted sight? What if what you said just seems blatantly false?

Then you've probably had a happy life. What if you were being subtly offensive on purpose?

Then you'd be an arse.

If we felt searing pain by looking around, we would get used to it, to the point where we were no longer bothered by searing pain. Then you won't even care when you accidentally put your hand on the stove. It's just run-of-the-mill searing pain.

No, I disagree. I don't think pain is measured on the average amount of pain we've perceived before hand, I think it's on a more absolute scale.


This is inconsequential, anyway. I didn't say things were designed that way, I said it's as if they were. What are the odds of things turning out exactly as you've described? I mean, your response is basically, "nope, we're not burning for eternity, so this isn't like hell at all." Really?

The supposed evil in this world far outweighs the good; not only do thousands of people starve to death every day: it's as if even the good things in our lives are just there to give us a vague semblance of what good is, that our pain might be truly realized.

How are you making comparisons if you've done away with value?

When did I do away with value?

We are all trapped in prisons, forever alone in the deepest existential way. We torture ourselves and others, socially, by competing and striving for that one thing that will make us happy, whose eternal absence distresses us greatly, all while we drive the weak into the dirt.

Yeah, sometimes people do bad things. What's your point? I can't do this anymore.

Neither can I.... Neither can I.

Bzz.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/29/2013 4:13:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 5:56:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/29/2013 1:46:57 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:49:05 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:47:18 AM, Rusty wrote:
Sorry, a lot of people are having a different type of reaction, so maybe this was just a whoooooosh moment for me and I missed the point. =(

I'm ignoring the exaggerated pessimism about the evil in the world and going straight for the nihilism... So maybe that's why. I don't know.

I guess what I was going for was, "Imagine things are like this, and show me you, and what you would think if they were."

Lol. Okay, doctor Phil.

Alright, let's have it your way and just talk about my feelings, then. -_-

People often worry that everything will go wrong. I'm just exploring what it'd be like if it does, in every possible aspect, such that there is no silver lining, and I'm tying it as close to reality as I can.

You're not even in the same ballpark as reality.

I think of it an an antithesis for anyone who says that life is beautiful and everything is grand.

I'm a big Louis Armstrong fan, so I'm going with "and I think to myself, what a wonderful world"

If someone were in the right state of mind, they would perceive everyone as dirty, experience as more painful than pleasurable, and life as meaningless. These things would be no less true than what you think of the world. You can argue against them all you want, but it will always be from your polar point of view.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
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4/29/2013 4:28:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 4:13:57 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 5:56:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/29/2013 1:46:57 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:49:05 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:47:18 AM, Rusty wrote:
Sorry, a lot of people are having a different type of reaction, so maybe this was just a whoooooosh moment for me and I missed the point. =(

I'm ignoring the exaggerated pessimism about the evil in the world and going straight for the nihilism... So maybe that's why. I don't know.

I guess what I was going for was, "Imagine things are like this, and show me you, and what you would think if they were."

Lol. Okay, doctor Phil.

Alright, let's have it your way and just talk about my feelings, then. -_-

People often worry that everything will go wrong. I'm just exploring what it'd be like if it does, in every possible aspect, such that there is no silver lining, and I'm tying it as close to reality as I can.

You're not even in the same ballpark as reality.

I think of it an an antithesis for anyone who says that life is beautiful and everything is grand.

I'm a big Louis Armstrong fan, so I'm going with "and I think to myself, what a wonderful world"

If someone were in the right state of mind, they would perceive everyone as dirty, experience as more painful than pleasurable, and life as meaningless.

Nonsense, how is that the "right" state of mind.

These things would be no less true than what you think of the world.

And no more true either, I prefer thinking positive thoughts, it feels better and you get more done.

You can argue against them all you want,

I don't want to argue against them,

but it will always be from your polar point of view.

Whoa, what a profound point, so my point of view is the one I have...then I suppose your point of view is the one you have? Always?

Hey, thanks for pointing that out.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/29/2013 4:56:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 4:28:44 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/29/2013 4:13:57 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 5:56:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/29/2013 1:46:57 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:49:05 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/29/2013 12:47:18 AM, Rusty wrote:
Sorry, a lot of people are having a different type of reaction, so maybe this was just a whoooooosh moment for me and I missed the point. =(

I'm ignoring the exaggerated pessimism about the evil in the world and going straight for the nihilism... So maybe that's why. I don't know.

I guess what I was going for was, "Imagine things are like this, and show me you, and what you would think if they were."

Lol. Okay, doctor Phil.

Alright, let's have it your way and just talk about my feelings, then. -_-

People often worry that everything will go wrong. I'm just exploring what it'd be like if it does, in every possible aspect, such that there is no silver lining, and I'm tying it as close to reality as I can.

You're not even in the same ballpark as reality.

I think of it an an antithesis for anyone who says that life is beautiful and everything is grand.

I'm a big Louis Armstrong fan, so I'm going with "and I think to myself, what a wonderful world"

If someone were in the right state of mind, they would perceive everyone as dirty, experience as more painful than pleasurable, and life as meaningless.

Nonsense, how is that the "right" state of mind.

"Right" as in "certain", i.e. "If someone were in the certain state of mind..."

These things would be no less true than what you think of the world.

And no more true either, I prefer thinking positive thoughts, it feels better and you get more done.

Wait, you prefer good things to bad things? I'd like to thank you for pointing that out, and say that this is quite the profound point.

Honestly, do you think people prefer slipping into a negative state of mind?

But I'm glad you suddenly agree that they're equally true, and are thus in fact in the ball park of reality.

You can argue against them all you want,

I don't want to argue against them,

Right, you just want to discredit them without making any substantial thoughts.

but it will always be from your polar point of view.

Whoa, what a profound point, so my point of view is the one I have...then I suppose your point of view is the one you have? Always?

Hey, thanks for pointing that out.

Gtfo.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
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4/29/2013 9:17:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 4:56:16 PM, toolpot462 wrote:

Alright, let's have it your way and just talk about my feelings, then. -_-

OK

Honestly, do you think people prefer slipping into a negative state of mind?

I think it is a form of self-indulgence.

Don"t be so self-absorbed, there are a lot of people much worse off than you, get outside yourself, go out a care for others, help somebody who is worse off than you, there are plenty of people out there that need your help.

We are all in this thing together. Get up off your a$$ and go do something about it.

The only way to enjoy the show, to enjoy life, is as a participant.

It"s all up to you, you are completely responsible for your life.

It"s an awesome burden and a great freedom.

If you do not feel free, it is because you have not yet declared your own freedom; you are waiting for it to be given to you.

You will wait forever.

Vote with your life.

Vote yes.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/29/2013 11:24:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 9:17:10 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/29/2013 4:56:16 PM, toolpot462 wrote:

Alright, let's have it your way and just talk about my feelings, then. -_-

OK

Honestly, do you think people prefer slipping into a negative state of mind?

I think it is a form of self-indulgence.

Don"t be so self-absorbed, there are a lot of people much worse off than you, get outside yourself, go out a care for others, help somebody who is worse off than you, there are plenty of people out there that need your help.

We are all in this thing together. Get up off your a$$ and go do something about it.

The only way to enjoy the show, to enjoy life, is as a participant.

It"s all up to you, you are completely responsible for your life.

It"s an awesome burden and a great freedom.

If you do not feel free, it is because you have not yet declared your own freedom; you are waiting for it to be given to you.

You will wait forever.

Vote with your life.

Vote yes.

I'm honored that you would deign to grace me with your words!
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/30/2013 8:10:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Credulous, at best, your desire to believe in
Angels in the hearts of men;
Pull your head on out you hippie, and give a listen:
Shouldn't have to say it all again.
The universe is hostile, so impersonal;
Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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4/30/2013 8:12:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/30/2013 8:10:28 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
Credulous, at best, your desire to believe in
Angels in the hearts of men;
Pull your head on out your hippie haze, and give a listen:
Shouldn't have to say it all again.
The universe is hostile, so impersonal;
Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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4/30/2013 9:01:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 11:24:53 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 4/29/2013 9:17:10 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/29/2013 4:56:16 PM, toolpot462 wrote:

Alright, let's have it your way and just talk about my feelings, then. -_-

OK

Honestly, do you think people prefer slipping into a negative state of mind?

I think it is a form of self-indulgence.

Don"t be so self-absorbed, there are a lot of people much worse off than you, get outside yourself, go out a care for others, help somebody who is worse off than you, there are plenty of people out there that need your help.

We are all in this thing together. Get up off your a$$ and go do something about it.

The only way to enjoy the show, to enjoy life, is as a participant.

It"s all up to you, you are completely responsible for your life.

It"s an awesome burden and a great freedom.

If you do not feel free, it is because you have not yet declared your own freedom; you are waiting for it to be given to you.

You will wait forever.

Vote with your life.

Vote yes.

I'm honored that you would deign to grace me with your words!

You're welcome.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater