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Fun Thought Experiments about Morality

DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

(If a particular question is uninteresting to you, just give me the middle finger and skip it.)
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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4/28/2013 11:22:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

I do no if it's so much immoral as it is a symptom of immorality. I think if somebody is turned on by that, there's something wrong with them. I definitely think it's immoral to support the industry financially, though, by PAYING for it because that creates a market for it which, in turn, leads to exploitation.

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

I think if you're married, it's not wrong, even if a little weird. I think if you're married, almost anything goes as long as it's consensual.

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

I don't know. I think in the case of a moral dilemma, it is moral to choose the lesser of two evils (or the greater of two goods), but to apply that to this situation requires a presupposition that it's immoral to deny yourself food, and although I think in general it is immoral to deny yourself food, I'm not sure if it's as immoral as stealing from somebody else.

(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes. The person's privacy is being violated whether they know about it or not. It wouldn't be much different that stealing a kidney from a coma patient. Just because they don't suffer doesn't mean wrong isn't being done to them.

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

Definitely not a rock. Probably not an ant. I'm not totally convinced ants are sentient. I think there are hierarchies of worth in the animal kingdom. I definitely think it's possible to commit immoral acts towards possums, raccoons, porcupines, horses, etc., but I'm not sure about ants. I learn toward no.

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

Yes. I think there's a sense in which we are stewards of ourselves, and we're obligated to look after our own self-interests. But we are also means to greater goods and should take care of ourselves for that reason as well. For example, if you're a parent, it would be wrong to commit suicide because that would harm your kids. You are a means to their getting a good upbringing.

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

I think suicide is immoral in general, but I'm open to exceptions. For example, if you have to choose between suicide and being tortured or eaten alive by a bear, suicide might be justified in that situation. I don't think being mentally handicapped is enough to justify suicide, but I guess it depends on the nature of the handicap.

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

I don't know. I guess it depends on how much trouble it would be to do it. If it's no trouble, then yes I think would be immoral not to do anything. But if it's a great deal of trouble, then maybe not.

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

I do think it's immoral for man B to forcibly take man A's canteen and drink from it because if he did, he's effectively be killing him. I don't think you have the right to kill an innocent person to save your own life. I think that if man A gave his water to man B, that would be a supererogatory act, but not an obligation, so not immoral. But I'm not sure.

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

It would be immoral for a creature to do that because we don't own life, but I don't think it would be immoral for God to do that because he created life.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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4/28/2013 11:57:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

(If a particular question is uninteresting to you, just give me the middle finger and skip it.)

Only number nine is a thought experiment. The rest are just questions.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/29/2013 12:03:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:57:26 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

(If a particular question is uninteresting to you, just give me the middle finger and skip it.)

Only number nine is a thought experiment. The rest are just questions.

I was wondering about that. I was under the impression that thought experiments were generally longer and had more depth to them, like Jim and the Indians or the Experience Machine or something. <_< A lot of these are just like "Child pornography. Wrong?"
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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4/29/2013 12:24:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

This is some fvcked up sh!t right here. I can't believe anyone would do this. Actually, I can. I found my first cat abandoned by a trash can, eating tuna scraps out of an empty can. Turns out she was left there by a heartless neighborhood girl. I was on my way out of the house to go to PetSmart, believe it or not, to buy a golden retriever when I found her. It was fate!

My current kitty witty, Raven, is my whole world (sorry tulle). She's on my bed as I type this and I just wanna cuddle her and love her and squeeze her and hold her little paws up and do a dance - oh how she loves to dance - until we both collapse, exhausted from our mutual enjoyment of life with one another. If she was hanging from a cliff and so was Alex Trebeck, I can say with certainty that Jeopardy would be needing a new host. Oh how I love my wittle kitty cat.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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4/29/2013 12:27:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 12:24:38 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

This is some fvcked up sh!t right here. I can't believe anyone would do this. Actually, I can. I found my first cat abandoned by a trash can, eating tuna scraps out of an empty can. Turns out she was left there by a heartless neighborhood girl. I was on my way out of the house to go to PetSmart, believe it or not, to buy a golden retriever when I found her. It was fate!

My current kitty witty, Raven, is my whole world (sorry tulle). She's on my bed as I type this and I just wanna cuddle her and love her and squeeze her and hold her little paws up and do a dance - oh how she loves to dance - until we both collapse, exhausted from our mutual enjoyment of life with one another. If she was hanging from a cliff and so was Alex Trebeck, I can say with certainty that Jeopardy would be needing a new host. Oh how I love my wittle kitty cat.

I "d'awwww"'d =p
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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4/29/2013 12:30:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
An exscript from my favourite book:

So, when the shoe fits
The foot is forgotten,
When the belt fits
The belly is forgotten,
When the heart is right
"For" and "against" are forgotten.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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4/29/2013 6:06:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

Yes

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

Yes

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

No

(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

Yes, no

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

Yes

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

Yes

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

Yes

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

No, yes

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

Yes

(If a particular question is uninteresting to you, just give me the middle finger and skip it.)

I answered the uninteresting ones too.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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4/29/2013 7:59:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:57:26 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

(If a particular question is uninteresting to you, just give me the middle finger and skip it.)

Only number nine is a thought experiment. The rest are just questions.

You are right, good sir. I'd amend the terminology if I could edit posts.
Sanfran
Posts: 102
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4/29/2013 8:02:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

wtf lol

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

ur a freka
(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

yes, stealing is wrong
(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

yes, thats creepy

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

only for life things, they can feel pain
(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

no, its just weird

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

yes, its weird and immoral

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

i hate cats, so no

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

they should fight to see who deserves it. thats the only fairness in that

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

yes, idiot question

(If a particular question is uninteresting to you, just give me the middle finger and skip it.)
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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4/29/2013 8:19:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:22:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

I do no if it's so much immoral as it is a symptom of immorality. I think if somebody is turned on by that, there's something wrong with them. I definitely think it's immoral to support the industry financially, though, by PAYING for it because that creates a market for it which, in turn, leads to exploitation.

I agree that encouraging the industry of child pornography (by paying for it) is immoral but if it were possible to view child pornography without encouraging the continuation of it, then I don't think that's immoral. However, you did say spying on someone (even if they were unaware of it) would be immoral; does this not also apply to the child in the pornography?

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

Definitely not a rock. Probably not an ant. I'm not totally convinced ants are sentient. I think there are hierarchies of worth in the animal kingdom. I definitely think it's possible to commit immoral acts towards possums, raccoons, porcupines, horses, etc., but I'm not sure about ants. I learn toward no.

If we assumed ants were non-sentient and could not feel pain, would it be immoral to kill one or crush a rock to pieces if doing so would cause great distress to someone who had given it sentimental value?

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

Yes. I think there's a sense in which we are stewards of ourselves, and we're obligated to look after our own self-interests. But we are also means to greater goods and should take care of ourselves for that reason as well. For example, if you're a parent, it would be wrong to commit suicide because that would harm your kids. You are a means to their getting a good upbringing.

Is it less immoral for a hermit to kill himself than a husband and father of children?

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

It would be immoral for a creature to do that because we don't own life, but I don't think it would be immoral for God to do that because he created life.

Do you believe it is possible for God to perform an immoral action against a human?
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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4/29/2013 8:48:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?
of course

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?
yes

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?
of course not
(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?
ehhh it matters on the rest of the situation
(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?
rock no, ant again it matters on the rest of the situation
(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?
not really i mean its you
(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?
no its really not. again its the persons life and no one should tell them how they should live
(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?
situation again
(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?
my answers for both is no
(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?
all life includes yourself so no
(If a particular question is uninteresting to you, just give me the middle finger and skip it.)
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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4/29/2013 10:35:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 8:19:54 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
I agree that encouraging the industry of child pornography (by paying for it) is immoral but if it were possible to view child pornography without encouraging the continuation of it, then I don't think that's immoral. However, you did say spying on someone (even if they were unaware of it) would be immoral; does this not also apply to the child in the pornography?

Yes, that's a good point, especially if the child is being forced into the industry.

If we assumed ants were non-sentient and could not feel pain, would it be immoral to kill one or crush a rock to pieces if doing so would cause great distress to someone who had given it sentimental value?

Yes, but in that case, the wrong would be done to the person who valued those things, not to the things themselves. It's only wrong by extension, like so:

1. It's wrong to unnecessarily cause somebody distress.
2. Destroying somebody's ants or rocks would unnecessarily cause them distress.
3. Therefore, it's wrong to destroy somebody's ants or rocks.

So it isn't because destroying ants and rocks is, by itself, immoral. Rather, it's immoral by extension from something ELSE that's immoral, namely, causing somebody distress for no good reason.

Is it less immoral for a hermit to kill himself than a husband and father of children?

Yes, I think so.

It would be immoral for a creature to do that because we don't own life, but I don't think it would be immoral for God to do that because he created life.

Do you believe it is possible for God to perform an immoral action against a human?

No.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Sui_Generis
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4/29/2013 10:42:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

No, it is immoral to lust after them, though.
See: FBI investigators.

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

No, but the underlying motivations driving such a desire might be immoral.

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

Yes, stealing is wrong regardless. This is only because I am Christian, though. Such deontologically-sided ethics are indefensible from a secular view.

(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes, the morality of spying is independent of their knowledge of it. Why wouldn't it be?

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

I hesitantly say yes, though I cannot think of one. It's not "against the ant," though, as much as it is a violation of God's imperative to be a responsible steward of creation. Such as burning ants with magnifying glasses.
A rock... the only way I can answer yes to this would be to get super philosophical, and make arguments about using rocks sharpened to function as knives, and whether that is immoral use of the rock....

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

Yes, but only from a Christian perspective.
Suicide and all associated actions would be legal in a secular political system with coherent ideals.

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

Already answered. A better question is if terminally-ill patients should be allowed suicide.

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

Only from a Christian perspective. And even if I wrote all the laws, I still wouldn't make good samaritan laws. A more clearly-phrased question would be "is it sin to not be as moral as consciously possible?"

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.
Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

Yes, and yes. I'm not sure this needs explanation.

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

Yes. The Deplorable Word, haha. Why would it NOT be, when it would be to end a life in the universe? Life isn't sacred because it hurts to end it. And it isn't sacred because there are people here to judge your actions after the fact. Morality does not follow from man's perceptions. Absent it, morality exists.
"Mundus vult decipi--the world wants to be deceived. The truth is too complex and frightening; the taste for the truth is an acquired taste that few acquire."
-Martin Buber, I and Thou
Skepsikyma
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4/29/2013 10:54:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

Yes, as you are supporting a morally abhorrent industry rife with abuse and brutality.

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

No

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

It depends entirely on whether the other person has acquired the food justly or not.

(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes, for the same reason that poisoning someone in their sleep is immoral.

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

Yes to both. It would be immoral to destroy the Rosetta stone, or to torture an ant to death if the ant's existence had no negative impact on your own. Even if it did, the torture is unnecessary and irrational.

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

No. For example, sawing ones leg off in order to escape a bear trap would be moral.

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

Not across the board, and most certainly yes.

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

No. Animals die all of the time; what makes a cat different? I obtained pretty much all of my cats in this manner, but no one in their right mind expects someone to care for every cat they come across.

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

Yes, in the end it comes to who ought to shoulder the burden for the mistake, and Man A is the one who tore the hole in Man B's canteen. Man B is the innocent bystander in the situation, the fact that the tear was accidental is of no issue. It would be immoral for Man A to refuse, and Man B would be justified in killing him in such a situation.

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

The decision would negate morality entirely, as morality is dependent upon living things.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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4/29/2013 10:57:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This thread is too complex, 10 questions gives us too much to talk about!
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/29/2013 11:20:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 10:57:16 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
This thread is too complex, 10 questions gives us too much to talk about!

At Freeratio.org, where I used to hang out, a thread like this would be quickly and automatically shut down. Their reasons seem to me good.

1. If nobody argues in favor of child molesting, the thread will be terminally boring.
2. If somebody does argue in favor of child molesting, then someone may be persuaded to engage in child molesting, and this web site will have moral complicity.
3. Somebody will argue in favor of child molesting, because groups like NAMBLA watch for such opportunities to legitimatize their cause.
4. This web site may be subject to civil or criminal legal action, which may be stressful and financially calamitous even if we ultimately prevail.

In the absence of moderator action, I recommend refusing to post on such threads.
Sui_Generis
Posts: 493
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4/29/2013 11:21:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 10:54:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes, for the same reason that poisoning someone in their sleep is immoral.

What reason is that? I don't see the parallel.

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

No. For example, sawing ones leg off in order to escape a bear trap would be moral.

Good insight! I agree.
"Mundus vult decipi--the world wants to be deceived. The truth is too complex and frightening; the taste for the truth is an acquired taste that few acquire."
-Martin Buber, I and Thou
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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4/29/2013 11:36:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 11:21:29 PM, Sui_Generis wrote:
At 4/29/2013 10:54:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes, for the same reason that poisoning someone in their sleep is immoral.
What reason is that? I don't see the parallel.

The person being poisoned in their sleep isn't aware of the fact that they're being killed. That doesn't mean that it's moral to kill them. In the same sense, spying on someone isn't made moral by the fact that the person being spied on is never aware of it.

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

No. For example, sawing ones leg off in order to escape a bear trap would be moral.

Good insight! I agree.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/30/2013 5:23:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

Depends on how you define child pornography. A parent watching a video of their kid when they were a toddler taking a bath is technically child porn but i don't find anything immiral about that. It's more when you get into exploitation of and sexualization of children that it becomes immoral.
(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

No. At its core, it is two consenting adults having sex. I think its a little weird but not immoral. It harms nobody.
(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

No. It's unfortunate but not immoral.
(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Definitely yes. You're abusing their trust and invading their privacy whether they know it or not.
(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

I don't know enough about ants to say. As for rocks, absolutely not. They are inert.
(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

I think people can do whateer they want to their own bodies. However, to do so knowing that it would hurt people who love you, that might be immoral.
(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

Not all the time. See above. As for the second, in most circumstances, probably not.
(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

If you are able to, yes it is immoral to not care for it.
(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

Yes. You're still infringing upon the wills of billions of sentient beings.
(If a particular question is uninteresting to you, just give me the middle finger and skip it.)
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/30/2013 5:31:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
To the canteen men- I don't think either would be immoral.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Sui_Generis
Posts: 493
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4/30/2013 6:27:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 11:36:59 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/29/2013 11:21:29 PM, Sui_Generis wrote:
At 4/29/2013 10:54:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes, for the same reason that poisoning someone in their sleep is immoral.
What reason is that? I don't see the parallel.

The person being poisoned in their sleep isn't aware of the fact that they're being killed. That doesn't mean that it's moral to kill them. In the same sense, spying on someone isn't made moral by the fact that the person being spied on is never aware of it.

Except you end up killing them...? They are ultimately made aware of it in death. Not so with voyeurism. Many arguments justify spying without murder.
"Mundus vult decipi--the world wants to be deceived. The truth is too complex and frightening; the taste for the truth is an acquired taste that few acquire."
-Martin Buber, I and Thou
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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4/30/2013 11:59:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/30/2013 6:27:04 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
At 4/29/2013 11:36:59 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/29/2013 11:21:29 PM, Sui_Generis wrote:
At 4/29/2013 10:54:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes, for the same reason that poisoning someone in their sleep is immoral.
What reason is that? I don't see the parallel.

The person being poisoned in their sleep isn't aware of the fact that they're being killed. That doesn't mean that it's moral to kill them. In the same sense, spying on someone isn't made moral by the fact that the person being spied on is never aware of it.


Except you end up killing them...? They are ultimately made aware of it in death. Not so with voyeurism. Many arguments justify spying without murder.

Nobody is aware of anything in death. Your nervous system ceases to function. If this happens before one regains consciousness, then one is never consciously aware of passing.

Another example. A poor mother in a third world country has twin children, delivered by Caesarean section, with no memory of the birth. The hospital is running low on room and kills one of the babies and tosses it in a dumpster, never making the mother aware of its existence. If the mother is never told about it, is the action still immoral?

You wronged your mother in life, and suffer crippling guilt because of it. On her death bed, she tells your brother that she understands and forgives you, but he never tells you it, because, embittered and envious by your success, he wishes you to suffer. Is it no longer immoral because you are unaware of being wronged?

A severely mentally disabled child goes to a bank and deposit money given to her by her grandfather. The clerk ropes her into an arrangement with far below average interest rates, knowing that she is innocent, trusts him, and will never know the difference. Because she is ignorant of this deceit, is the act rendered moral or null?

Do you see the point? A persons ignorance of their being wronged does not negate the immorality of the act of wronging them.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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5/2/2013 4:02:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Well, fun to me anyway. In case you don't know (which, how could you?), I love issues of morality and I love coming up with and examining thought experiments pertaining to them. None of the following questions are necessarily ancillary to any larger scheme I may have. I'm just curious as to what elucidation people might offer to support their answers (i.e., just a "yes" or "no" is boring):

(1) Do you believe it is immoral to watch child pornography?

(2) Do you believe it is immoral to role-play having sex with children with someone who is of legal age (i.e., he/she pretends to be underage)?

Depends on consent.

(3) Do you believe it is immoral to steal food from someone who has more than they need if doing so is the only way the thief can avoid starvation?

(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes. If the person does not want to be spied on or have food taken from them, you have no right to violate their property rights. Although, if the food was obtained through immoral methods (such as theft), it would be fine.

(5) Do you believe it is possible for one to perform an immoral action against an ant? What about a rock?

In most cases, no. If the ant or rock in question does not have the ability or the potential to be able to reason, they do not have any rights.

(6) Do you believe causing harm to oneself, in any specific degree, is immoral?

(7) Do you believe suicide is immoral? If not, do you believe children and/or mentally-handicapped adults should have the right to end their own lives?

I don't view it as immoral. I view it as irrational. To quote Ayn Rand; "in principle a man has the right to commit suicide, but it is enormously inadvisable." As for children and the mentally ill, yes. If they want to commit suicide, you have no right to stop them.

(8) Do you believe it is immoral to see an abandoned kitten (one too young to survive on its own) on the side of the road and not care for it?

No. You have no obligation to care for or help anything else.

(9) Suppose two men are wandering the desert lost, each with a canteen full of water. Each man must drink the entire contents of his own canteen, else he will die of thirst before reaching civilization.

Man A accidentally tears a non-repairable hole in the bottom of Man B's canteen, thus causing him to lose at least some of his precious water, without which he will surely die. Sharing what remains is not a viable option (each man must drink an entire canteen's worth of water to live). Do you believe it is immoral for Man B to then take Man A's canteen and drink it for himself? Do believe it is immoral for Man A to refuse to give him his own canteen?

Yes and no, respectively. Man A did not choose to rip the hole in man B's canteen.


(10) Do you believe it is immoral to simultaneously, instantaneously, and painlessly end all life in the universe?

If all life consents to this, then no. Otherwise, such an act would violate the rights of all living beings able to consent to such a thing.

(If a particular question is uninteresting to you, just give me the middle finger and skip it.)
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Sui_Generis
Posts: 493
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5/2/2013 9:35:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/30/2013 11:59:59 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/30/2013 6:27:04 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
At 4/29/2013 11:36:59 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/29/2013 11:21:29 PM, Sui_Generis wrote:
At 4/29/2013 10:54:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/28/2013 11:03:18 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
(4) Do you believe it is immoral to spy on someone utilizing bugs and cameras in their house and car if the person being spied on is unaware of this invasion of privacy and will certainly never become aware of it?

Yes, for the same reason that poisoning someone in their sleep is immoral.
What reason is that? I don't see the parallel.

The person being poisoned in their sleep isn't aware of the fact that they're being killed. That doesn't mean that it's moral to kill them. In the same sense, spying on someone isn't made moral by the fact that the person being spied on is never aware of it.


Except you end up killing them...? They are ultimately made aware of it in death. Not so with voyeurism. Many arguments justify spying without murder.

Nobody is aware of anything in death. Your nervous system ceases to function. If this happens before one regains consciousness, then one is never consciously aware of passing.

Another example. A poor mother in a third world country has twin children, delivered by Caesarean section, with no memory of the birth. The hospital is running low on room and kills one of the babies and tosses it in a dumpster, never making the mother aware of its existence. If the mother is never told about it, is the action still immoral?

You wronged your mother in life, and suffer crippling guilt because of it. On her death bed, she tells your brother that she understands and forgives you, but he never tells you it, because, embittered and envious by your success, he wishes you to suffer. Is it no longer immoral because you are unaware of being wronged?

A severely mentally disabled child goes to a bank and deposit money given to her by her grandfather. The clerk ropes her into an arrangement with far below average interest rates, knowing that she is innocent, trusts him, and will never know the difference. Because she is ignorant of this deceit, is the act rendered moral or null?

Do you see the point? A persons ignorance of their being wronged does not negate the immorality of the act of wronging them.

I don't disagree. However my point is that many systems of determining right and wrong would prohibit murder and permit spying. They are fundamentally distinguishable in that the victim suffers directly in only one situation.
"Mundus vult decipi--the world wants to be deceived. The truth is too complex and frightening; the taste for the truth is an acquired taste that few acquire."
-Martin Buber, I and Thou