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There is no absolute truth.

LogicalMaddog
Posts: 90
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4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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5/1/2013 11:21:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.

So everything that happens is an absolute truth?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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5/1/2013 11:47:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 11:21:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.

So everything that happens is an absolute truth?

Well, in a way, yes. I thought we were talking about what we know to be absolute truth, in which case, you can only tell that what's happening for you is an absolute truth (that it's happening in some way or another).

But for sure if something is, in fact, happening, it's an absolute truth that it's happening. The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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5/1/2013 3:42:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 11:47:13 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:21:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.

So everything that happens is an absolute truth?

Well, in a way, yes. I thought we were talking about what we know to be absolute truth, in which case, you can only tell that what's happening for you is an absolute truth (that it's happening in some way or another).

But for sure if something is, in fact, happening, it's an absolute truth that it's happening. The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not.

Ummm...OK.

I didn't think "absolute " would be so nebulous and ill defined, or different for different people and I kinda thought the "truth" part would be something we would know if it was true or not...all that mush you typed just doesn't sound very absolute or very true.

Does anybody have another example of an absolute truth?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
LogicalMaddog
Posts: 90
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5/1/2013 7:31:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

An absolute truth is a universal fact that is unalterable and permanent. For example, an absolute truth (solely for Christians) is that an omnipotent god exists.
LogicalMaddog
Posts: 90
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5/1/2013 7:36:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 3:42:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:47:13 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:21:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.

So everything that happens is an absolute truth?

Well, in a way, yes. I thought we were talking about what we know to be absolute truth, in which case, you can only tell that what's happening for you is an absolute truth (that it's happening in some way or another).

But for sure if something is, in fact, happening, it's an absolute truth that it's happening. The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not.

Ummm...OK.

I didn't think "absolute " would be so nebulous and ill defined, or different for different people and I kinda thought the "truth" part would be something we would know if it was true or not...all that mush you typed just doesn't sound very absolute or very true.

Does anybody have another example of an absolute truth?

Please see the latter post. The concept of absolute truth is quite difficult to disprove. However, there has been no findings of an absolute truth even though different religions have other ideas. Plato believed that absolute truth existed though he couldn't prove it.
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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5/1/2013 11:17:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 3:42:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:47:13 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:21:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.

So everything that happens is an absolute truth?

Well, in a way, yes. I thought we were talking about what we know to be absolute truth, in which case, you can only tell that what's happening for you is an absolute truth (that it's happening in some way or another).

But for sure if something is, in fact, happening, it's an absolute truth that it's happening. The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not.

Ummm...OK.

I didn't think "absolute " would be so nebulous and ill defined, or different for different people and I kinda thought the "truth" part would be something we would know if it was true or not...all that mush you typed just doesn't sound very absolute or very true.

Does anybody have another example of an absolute truth?

That "mush" I typed equates mathematically to A = A. You can't get closer to absolute truth than that.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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5/2/2013 3:43:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 11:17:10 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 3:42:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:47:13 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:21:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.

So everything that happens is an absolute truth?

Well, in a way, yes. I thought we were talking about what we know to be absolute truth, in which case, you can only tell that what's happening for you is an absolute truth (that it's happening in some way or another).

But for sure if something is, in fact, happening, it's an absolute truth that it's happening. The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not.

Ummm...OK.

I didn't think "absolute " would be so nebulous and ill defined, or different for different people and I kinda thought the "truth" part would be something we would know if it was true or not...all that mush you typed just doesn't sound very absolute or very true.

Does anybody have another example of an absolute truth?

That "mush" I typed equates mathematically to A = A. You can't get closer to absolute truth than that.

A=A is the mathematical equivalent of "this is happening in at least some way", "what's happening for you (that it's happening in some way or another)", and "The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not"? That's what A=A means?

Really?

I don't suppose you want to show us how that mush mathematically translates to A=A.

Before you do, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the definitions of "absolute" and "truth".

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
toolpot462
Posts: 289
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5/2/2013 3:57:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 3:43:37 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:17:10 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 3:42:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:47:13 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:21:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.

So everything that happens is an absolute truth?

Well, in a way, yes. I thought we were talking about what we know to be absolute truth, in which case, you can only tell that what's happening for you is an absolute truth (that it's happening in some way or another).

But for sure if something is, in fact, happening, it's an absolute truth that it's happening. The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not.

Ummm...OK.

I didn't think "absolute " would be so nebulous and ill defined, or different for different people and I kinda thought the "truth" part would be something we would know if it was true or not...all that mush you typed just doesn't sound very absolute or very true.

Does anybody have another example of an absolute truth?

That "mush" I typed equates mathematically to A = A. You can't get closer to absolute truth than that.

A=A is the mathematical equivalent of "this is happening in at least some way", "what's happening for you (that it's happening in some way or another)", and "The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not"? That's what A=A means?

Really?

I don't suppose you want to show us how that mush mathematically translates to A=A.

Before you do, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the definitions of "absolute" and "truth".

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

"So everything that happens is an absolute truth?"

My response to that was that if something is happening, it's absolutely true that it's happening. Is it true that this is happening? Is it happening? Then yes, it's true. Hence, A = A.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices, son.
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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5/2/2013 4:12:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

How about the law of physic and mathematics?

While certain number can be indefinite and is subject to interpretation, there is no way you can deny 1+1 = 2 in mathematics sense.
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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5/2/2013 4:17:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 3:57:23 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/2/2013 3:43:37 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:17:10 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 3:42:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:47:13 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:21:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.

So everything that happens is an absolute truth?

Well, in a way, yes. I thought we were talking about what we know to be absolute truth, in which case, you can only tell that what's happening for you is an absolute truth (that it's happening in some way or another).

But for sure if something is, in fact, happening, it's an absolute truth that it's happening. The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not.

Ummm...OK.

I didn't think "absolute " would be so nebulous and ill defined, or different for different people and I kinda thought the "truth" part would be something we would know if it was true or not...all that mush you typed just doesn't sound very absolute or very true.

Does anybody have another example of an absolute truth?

That "mush" I typed equates mathematically to A = A. You can't get closer to absolute truth than that.

A=A is the mathematical equivalent of "this is happening in at least some way", "what's happening for you (that it's happening in some way or another)", and "The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not"? That's what A=A means?

Really?

I don't suppose you want to show us how that mush mathematically translates to A=A.

Before you do, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the definitions of "absolute" and "truth".

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

"So everything that happens is an absolute truth?"

My response to that was that if something is happening, it's absolutely true that it's happening. Is it true that this is happening? Is it happening? Then yes, it's true. Hence, A = A.

Give it a definition like "A is a factor winch have weight equal to A and it can stand for nothing else" A = A will be absolute in logic.
Sidewalker
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5/2/2013 4:29:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 4:17:25 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 5/2/2013 3:57:23 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/2/2013 3:43:37 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:17:10 PM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 3:42:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:47:13 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:21:50 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:53:52 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:42:39 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:35:49 AM, toolpot462 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 5:13:45 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

Truth is a "relational" term, it is relates facts and the conclusions drawn from those facts. The very nature and use of the word "truth" implies that it is referential to a dynamic, it isn"t self-referential and it isn't an object in and of itself, it refers to a relationship between other things. It is an expression of a dynamic and as such, it is referential to a dynamic that is in constant change and flux because that dynamic is subject to time and progress, as are the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts.

I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they talk about truth as an absolute. Can you explain just what you mean when you refer to "absolute" truth?

Can you give an example of an absolute truth?

I can. It is absolutely true that this is happening in at least some way.

What is happening?

This. It's right in front of your face.

So everything that happens is an absolute truth?

Well, in a way, yes. I thought we were talking about what we know to be absolute truth, in which case, you can only tell that what's happening for you is an absolute truth (that it's happening in some way or another).

But for sure if something is, in fact, happening, it's an absolute truth that it's happening. The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not.

Ummm...OK.

I didn't think "absolute " would be so nebulous and ill defined, or different for different people and I kinda thought the "truth" part would be something we would know if it was true or not...all that mush you typed just doesn't sound very absolute or very true.

Does anybody have another example of an absolute truth?

That "mush" I typed equates mathematically to A = A. You can't get closer to absolute truth than that.

A=A is the mathematical equivalent of "this is happening in at least some way", "what's happening for you (that it's happening in some way or another)", and "The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not"? That's what A=A means?

Really?

I don't suppose you want to show us how that mush mathematically translates to A=A.

Before you do, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the definitions of "absolute" and "truth".

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

"So everything that happens is an absolute truth?"

My response to that was that if something is happening, it's absolutely true that it's happening. Is it true that this is happening? Is it happening? Then yes, it's true. Hence, A = A.

Give it a definition like "A is a factor winch have weight equal to A and it can stand for nothing else" A = A will be absolute in logic.

OK, but I don't think he was using logic.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sui_Generis
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5/2/2013 9:44:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I do believe in absolute truth, however toolpot is arguing incoherently for it. Sidewalker is correct in that he was not using logic.

Agent Orange: How do you KNOW that you will die, and that everyone a given person has ever loved will die? You can't know the future. In the vein of Hume, you can throw a baseball in the air, but you don't know it will come down. At best, you can extrapolate from billions of instances that it will with all likelihood come down, but you can't know.

In the same way, Suttichart, many have disagreed that 1 and 1 do not absolutely equal 2. JS Mill, for example, argued similar as I stated above, that mathematics are not "true," but are rather useful to rely upon because they so often prove correct. We cannot know that 1 and 1 will always equal 2, only that it always has, and likely always will. But how can you prove that 1 and 1 equal 2, absolutely?

Also, the existence of an omnipotent God cannot be true solely for Christians. Either it is true for all people and believed (for the sake of this example,) in only by Christians, or it is false for all people, and believed in only by Christians.
"Mundus vult decipi--the world wants to be deceived. The truth is too complex and frightening; the taste for the truth is an acquired taste that few acquire."
-Martin Buber, I and Thou
LogicalMaddog
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5/2/2013 4:53:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 9:44:19 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
I do believe in absolute truth, however toolpot is arguing incoherently for it. Sidewalker is correct in that he was not using logic.

Also, the existence of an omnipotent God cannot be true solely for Christians. Either it is true for all people and believed (for the sake of this example,) in only by Christians, or it is false for all people, and believed in only by Christians.

Simply put, I was giving an example that Christians believe that the existence of an omnipotent God is absolute truth. I have not been implying that absolute truth can be solely for Christians.
Guy-In-Process
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5/2/2013 5:58:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

If one states that there is no absolute truth, then one has made a claim, this claim portrays it's to stand true. Therefore by saying there is no absolute truth, is illogical. As logic demands a substance to be sustained on, something that is inherently true by nature. Otherwise if there is no premise for logic then what ultimate credibility does logic constrain except through the engineered brain that man possesses? There by saying that truth is logical, that if there is no sustained substance for logic, absolute truth being logical, one must also state that logic is not absolute. In short, why does one question the plausibility of absolute truth yet question not the plausibility of logic being at all what it is? When really, they both submit to each other.

If then there is no absolute truth, what then is the need for logic? Logic demands an absolute answer, if there is no absolute answer then there is no logic. Logic works by taking a claim and holding it up to something absolutely true for it to be judged by. This is what I believe. This is what I think is true. This is what I is right.
Sidewalker
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5/2/2013 7:39:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 6:54:18 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
you mean me? Why?

No, not you, toolpot462. the guy who said all that mush was mathematically equal to A=A in the first place.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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5/2/2013 7:48:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 9:44:19 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
I do believe in absolute truth, however toolpot is arguing incoherently for it. Sidewalker is correct in that he was not using logic.

Agent Orange: How do you KNOW that you will die, and that everyone a given person has ever loved will die? You can't know the future. In the vein of Hume, you can throw a baseball in the air, but you don't know it will come down. At best, you can extrapolate from billions of instances that it will with all likelihood come down, but you can't know.

In the same way, Suttichart, many have disagreed that 1 and 1 do not absolutely equal 2. JS Mill, for example, argued similar as I stated above, that mathematics are not "true," but are rather useful to rely upon because they so often prove correct. We cannot know that 1 and 1 will always equal 2, only that it always has, and likely always will. But how can you prove that 1 and 1 equal 2, absolutely?

I'd say that mathematics is abstract and we can say that 1+1=2 by definition, but only in the abstract sense because we define the rules. Mathematics applied to reality it is not always true, 1 quart of liquid water plus 1 quart of liquid vinegar, does not yield two quarts of liquid for instance.

Also, the existence of an omnipotent God cannot be true solely for Christians. Either it is true for all people and believed (for the sake of this example,) in only by Christians, or it is false for all people, and believed in only by Christians.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Agent_Orange
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5/2/2013 7:57:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 9:44:19 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
Agent Orange: How do you KNOW that you will die, and that everyone a given person has ever loved will die? You can't know the future. In the vein of Hume, you can throw a baseball in the air, but you don't know it will come down. At best, you can extrapolate from billions of instances that it will with all likelihood come down, but you can't know.

I'm not much of a philosophizer but why are you ignoring science?
#BlackLivesMatter
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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5/2/2013 8:38:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, in a way, yes. I thought we were talking about what we know to be absolute truth, in which case, you can only tell that what's happening for you is an absolute truth (that it's happening in some way or another).

But for sure if something is, in fact, happening, it's an absolute truth that it's happening. The trouble is whether we know it to be true or not.

The Fool: Bang On!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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5/2/2013 9:05:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"""If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?"

The Fool: If I was to take what you said seriously, then I would have to consider you foolishly. That is, you are right, in the wrong way, but it is better than being wrong in the right way. For if you follow me seriously you will catch my drift, But if you follow foolishly you will catch my begriffsschrift.

For it is absolutely true, that if one states "that there is no absolute truth," it is absolutely true that there is absolute truth, for it Absolute follows by the truth that there was a One who stated something, no matter how foolish it was, that is, only if you take me seriously, but if you take me foolishly, you will see, that it was the One and then the "statement" that followed from Absolute Truth, for it must be Absolutely true, that The One IS, for the statement to Be @ All....
Or at least that is what a wise man once told me, in a dream of dreams, but an interesting dream I say. I guess it depends on how you take me, I do tend to drift off, so don't follow me too closely, or you will stray away, and mostly, miss the boat, as it floats on into the next world, and the next Dream.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
pozessed
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5/2/2013 10:52:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/30/2013 11:03:37 PM, LogicalMaddog wrote:
If one states that there is no absolute truth, is it absolutely true that there is no absolute truth? If so, is it not absolute truth? If not, is it probable that there is absolute truth?

It's absolutely true that we all have experiences that we perceive in different ways. It is absolutely true that we will die one day. It is absolutely true that we need nutrition. It is absolutely true that we were born. It is absolutely true that you read this at debate.org. It is absolutely true you are reading what I wrote. It is absolutely true that all of this may be nonsense to someone if they perceive it as such.

IDK about, hard to prove....
AlbinoBunny
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5/6/2013 6:55:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Logic and mathematics seem probable to be absolute truths.

I like the paradox though. It's similar to when I was told that the Buddha said "everything always changes" and I said, "well maybe, but if that's true then the statement never changes, and therefore it is false". Paradoxxxin'/
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suttichart.denpruektham
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5/6/2013 7:33:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 7:48:27 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/2/2013 9:44:19 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
I do believe in absolute truth, however toolpot is arguing incoherently for it. Sidewalker is correct in that he was not using logic.

Agent Orange: How do you KNOW that you will die, and that everyone a given person has ever loved will die? You can't know the future. In the vein of Hume, you can throw a baseball in the air, but you don't know it will come down. At best, you can extrapolate from billions of instances that it will with all likelihood come down, but you can't know.

In the same way, Suttichart, many have disagreed that 1 and 1 do not absolutely equal 2. JS Mill, for example, argued similar as I stated above, that mathematics are not "true," but are rather useful to rely upon because they so often prove correct. We cannot know that 1 and 1 will always equal 2, only that it always has, and likely always will. But how can you prove that 1 and 1 equal 2, absolutely?

I'd say that mathematics is abstract and we can say that 1+1=2 by definition, but only in the abstract sense because we define the rules. Mathematics applied to reality it is not always true, 1 quart of liquid water plus 1 quart of liquid vinegar, does not yield two quarts of liquid for instance.

Also, the existence of an omnipotent God cannot be true solely for Christians. Either it is true for all people and believed (for the sake of this example,) in only by Christians, or it is false for all people, and believed in only by Christians.

Still it will yield a definite solution that will never change unless the surrounding factors are (change in quantity of water or vinegar, change in amount of air, change in temperature). Thus I would still argue that in physical property and mathematical logic is absolute for most of the case. You can give anything a positive or negative value the way you like but you cannot make what opposite to positive, a positive (you can not stay stilling is not good and not stilling is not good at the same time). And when positive or negative value is determined, mathematical rule can be applied.